Still having latch problems anyone? - Page 2

[Amy@STL]

I didn't realize so many of us were having latch/BF issues. Hugs to all of you.

I have a positive update - After 3 weeks of medication my Renauds has gone. I am now able to BF without dreading every feed. Some feeds are painless!!!

To those of you who are still fighting, hang in there...

[jenfl]

Thanks, Amy! And congratulations!

Sprout seems to have taken 2 steps back. He's dropping a lot the last few days. Oh, and for a while today, he decided he only wanted to nurse side-lying! He didn't eat for 5 hours today because I couldn't lay down to feed him! I finally caught him right after a nap, when he was drowsy and not paying attention, and got a good feed into him.

I've talked to an LC and a pediatrician, and they feel the frenulum connecting Sprout's upper lip is a bit tight (fairly common with tongue tied kids). We're going back to the ENT on Monday and are going to see if he'll clip that.

I got a copy of "Supporting Sucking Skills in Breastfed Infants" through the library ILL, and it's fabulous. You can read part of it on Google Books. I tried the baby-led attachment to see if we could get a better latch that way, but no luck. Still working my way to the tongue-tie chapter.... hoping there'll be some more ideas there.

[jsh7809]

Yay, Amy! Congrats on feeling better!
Jen, that book sounds great, I might check it out of the library, too.
I think I haven't posted on this thread yet (sorry if I have! Very tired). My babe has had so much milk (oversupply) gushing her way for her whole life so far that now that I"m getting it to slow a bit (despite a new increase due to 6 week growth spurt), I'm realizing we might start having latch problems at 7 weeks. Yikes! She has a really lazy latch since the milk just shoots in there for the first few minutes, she pops off constantly (so she doesn't drown in the let down), and now she's started licking the nipple instead of sucking.
I"m going to just keep letting her work through her frustration and redirect her back to the nipple over and over again when she thinks the milk is all done, but it's weird thinking that we kind of have to start from scratch getting her to latch properly unless the boob is engorged and gushing.

[jsh7809]

Wow, after reading back through the thread, I just have to say - you mamas are TOUGH! I had no idea so many of you were experiencing so much pain and frustration. Great job for sticking with it, and no judgement if you end up shifting to formula... but I am so impressed with everyone for your patience and dedication! Hope things get much better soon s

[ColwynsMommy]

Things are finally improving for us, too. Between saline soaks, homemade APNO, and taking one feed off each night, my nipples are starting to heal and it isn't nearly as painful to nurse. I'm getting more comfortable doing the cross-cradle hold, so I don't have to rely on only the football hold. He's still tongue thrusting pretty frequently, but it doesn't hurt as much. I think we're just going to have to nurse through it and hope that he'll grow out of it.

[Amy@STL]

Originally Posted by ColwynsMommy

Things are finally improving for us, too. Between saline soaks, homemade APNO, and taking one feed off each night, my nipples are starting to heal and it isn't nearly as painful to nurse. I'm getting more comfortable doing the cross-cradle hold, so I don't have to rely on only the football hold. He's still tongue thrusting pretty frequently, but it doesn't hurt as much. I think we're just going to have to nurse through it and hope that he'll grow out of it.

Great news! I have also found cross cradle very helpful. With football , I discovered using a boppy pillow helps. Good luck!

[jenfl]

ENT won't clip Sprout's lip tie. And I suspect he might still have a posterior tongue tie, but there's no way I'll find anyone around here to clip it.

So we've reached as far as I can go in getting his anatomy appropriate for nursing. Now it's just time and hope.

[jenfl]

On a scale of 0-5, where 5 is a normal, happy nursing relationship and 0 is "I'm in the car, on the way to the grocery store to buy some formula", we're hovering around a 1 these days.

If I knew things would get better down the line, I'd be able to push through this. But I'm suspecting more and more that he's nursing like this out of habit, not out of necessity. I've tried everything I and the LC can think of, but there's no way to MAKE a 2 month old keep the breast in his mouth.

bubbamummy, ColwynsMommy -- how are you guys doing with the tongue tie (or suspected tongue tie) issues?

[snoopy5386]

Jen, reading your posts made me realize I have a latch dropper too. Not to the extreme of sprout but still she drops her latch many times a session, I don't know why, but it is annoying especially when NIP. I hope it gets better for you.

[ColwynsMommy]

Originally Posted by jenfl

On a scale of 0-5, where 5 is a normal, happy nursing relationship and 0 is "I'm in the car, on the way to the grocery store to buy some formula", we're hovering around a 1 these days.

If I knew things would get better down the line, I'd be able to push through this. But I'm suspecting more and more that he's nursing like this out of habit, not out of necessity. I've tried everything I and the LC can think of, but there's no way to MAKE a 2 month old keep the breast in his mouth.

bubbamummy, ColwynsMommy -- how are you guys doing with the tongue tie (or suspected tongue tie) issues?

I don't think he's got tongue tie.. he stopped tongue thrusting so much when the thrush went away, so I think he was just uncomfortable or something. He still does it occasionally, but I'm down to relatching him maybe 5 times a session.

[bubbamummy]

we're now back to exclusively pumping, with the odd nursing session thrown in at night. I guess im just not cut out for breastfeeding. It stressed me out so much that I couldnt eat-I know...control freak much?! I am pumping a ton too. I feel bad now that I put her through getting her tongue clipped and now we're not even nursing really. Im just hoping that it will also save her from any speech issues in the future.

[Mosaic]

Can I crash this party? I was in the May DDC but DD2 came April 14th, so she's 9 weeks old now and we're still having latch issues. Jenfl, I think I've seen you have similar issues, so I thought I'd crash and see if we could all figure this out together.

Our story: DD was born at 37s and was an interested nurser from the get-go, but her latch stunk. She fell off all the time and clicked constantly; but she was gaining weight, so we kept coming up with excuses for the nipple damage and sorry rhythm. I thought things would change when my milk came in, or when she had more practice, or if I pumped some of the extra off, or if I used a nipple shield. But it still didn't feel right.

We got a diagnosis of a posterior tongue-tie and had it clipped; 1.5 weeks later, we still had no improvement. Off we went to a speech language pathologist, who noted that she had a high palate, a flat tongue, poor tongue groove, and zero suck. The reason I didn't have more pain was because she had no suck strength, so she was compressing the milk out of the end of the nipple and that was it. She was gaining weight because I had a good supply, but given time her weight (and my supply) would tank because she was just freeloading.

Insert a "therapy" regimen of pacifier-exercises, bottle feeding, and 100% nipple shield nursing. We confirmed the tongue-tie was clipped correctly (it was), and a week after starting exercises we saw great improvement: excellent tongue groove, good rhythm, and she wasn't pushing the bottle out of her mouth or gagging on the paci hardly at all. But her suck was still weak, and she still clicks even on the nipple shield.

5 weeks of therapy/visits/copays later, we're still in the same place, essentially. Nursing is still a two-handed ordeal, with the shield, still clicking. I met with the SLP again yesterday and we're working now on getting her off of the nipple shield, if that's even possible. I go back to work in 2 weeks, and I'm just crushed that my whole maternity leave has been spent pumping, bottle feeding, and just fighting to get this going and we're still not there. DH was a huge BFing supporter for DD1 but has already mentioned calling it quits... we're dealing with a dairy sensitivity and reflux to boot (which the SLP thinks is related to her feeding issues), and I just don't think he realizes that the benefits really ARE worth all of this trouble.

I know so many women have it harder than I do, so I really shouldn't complain. But nursing DD1 was so wonderful; I was really looking forward to having that relationship again.

[Amy@STL]

Originally Posted by Mosaic

I go back to work in 2 weeks, and I'm just crushed that my whole maternity leave has been spent pumping, bottle feeding, and just fighting to get this going and we're still not there.

That's EXACTLY what I am feeling right now.

My latest update- While my vasospasm seems to have subsided it may not have entirely gone. I am back to pumping majority of feeds. I think the pain/soreness comes back because of the side-lyng position at night, but I can't find anything more convenient specially with DS being super sensitive about any kind of movement. He will wake up if I just move a muscle in my neck
I also think my nipples get sore bcoz he likes to nurse to sleep. He is a high need baby and anyting I can do to make him sleep better helps. But he keeps sucking on and on and on.... !!!!! He stopped letting go off the breast since he was 2-3 weeks old. I don't want to use the pacifier with every feed...I am very frustated with the whole BF experience but hoping to make it to atleast 4 month mark!

Thanks for listening mamas

[jenfl]

Hi, Mosaic! It does sound like we're going through very similar things. It really sucks, huh?

When did you have your LO's tongue clipped? I know that can make a difference in getting function back; I've also heard that it takes as long for things to improve as the baby was tied. Unfortunately, I can vouch that that isn't always true -- DS was clipped at 5.5 weeks, and we hit 11 weeks yesterday.

Can you tell me more about the exercises you're doing? Our LC just has us trying to get DS to stick his tongue out. Which does seem to make a small improvement, as long as we're doing that many, many times a day. When we stopped doing it as much, things fell back again. I'd love to work some more exercises in.

We're not dealing with tongue grooving or suck issues, thank goodness. His suck must be super-strong to overcome the tongue issues. I noticed a significant improvement on the grooving after the clip. I'm pretty sure DS has a high palate; I know that often goes along with tongue tie.

I'm not sure, though, that he was clipped enough. The doc clipped a tie that seemed to be at the base of his mouth, near the front. But I think there might be a more posterior tie, too. When I run my finger under his tongue, I still feel resistance. But it was hard enough to find this doctor, and at the follow-up, he believed that DS is now fine. And he doesn't want to try clipping DS's minor lip tie.

DS won't take a bottle (he doesn't seem to be able to figure out how to drink from it -- it gags him), which I'm torn about. One the one hand, there's no chance of risking losing the little function he has to nipple confusion or bottle preference. On the other hand, I have no option for a break when things get really hard and frustrating. And DH can't take DS on his own for a little while, which he really wants to do (and I want him to do -- I'd love to take DD to some mommy-daughter things!).

So there's really nothing more that I feel I can do. It's either going to get better or it isn't. From what I've heard, if it's going to improve on its own (the palate re-shaping, etc), it'll get better between 3 and 4 months. So I'm going to try to push through the next 1.5 months. (Ouch, that makes it seem like forever.) At 4 months, I figure I definitely can maintain a pumping supply for 2 months (to get to 6 months). After that....

[Mosaic]

DD's tie was clipped at 2.5 weeks, so we seemingly had everything going for us to get nursing back on track. The exercises we did:

1) Let him suck on your finger, nail side up, drawing it into his mouth. Once he gets going, pull back a bit and place a finger under his chin to pull the tongue out over the gumline and keep it there. The finger under the bony part of the chin is to stabilize it.

2) Same as above, but press down and out on the hump in the back of the tongue along with his sucking rhythm. Kinda like when you tell someone to "come hither" with your finger, but upside down. This was to draw the tongue forward more and reduce sensitivity in the back.

3) Bottle: Let him suck the nipple in, then push it in until the whole nipple is in there, with flared lips, and keep a finger under the bony part of the chin to stabilize it. The SLP recommended Evenflo Classic bottles with the old-fashioned brown nipples, size 1, to give enough resistance for training and not sabotage nursing. Start every feeding with 1 oz in the bottle, then nurse with the shield to get good form.

4) Paci: the newborn Soothie brand. The goal is to get him sucking and then pull back slightly on it to increase his sucking strength. FWIW, the LC and I both though DD had great sucking strength, but the SLP showed me that I was mostly feeling compression, not sucking. I felt a lot of pressure on my finger during the exercises, but sure shootin', try to pull the finger out a bit and the suction was lost immediately.

This SLP works at a pediatric dysphagia clinic... you may want to look for one near you. Gagging on the bottle is something DD did early on, but now we've worked through that sensitivity; worst case scenario, I figure I can pump as long as my supply holds out.

As for whether the tie was clipped enough, the SLP commented on the shape of DD's tongue when crying. It should be cupped, not flat. But like you commented, we may both still face issues because of slightly different anatomy, high palate, etc.

Amy, I totally hear you on the paci use. DD LOVES to suck... it's too bad her sucking SUCKS! Sometimes I just need a break, and I pull the paci out but then it just falls out of her mouth all the time so it's not a good break either.

I tell ya', it's a good thing we love these little people because this is a lot of work!

[jenfl]

Mosaic, thanks for the info on the exercises! That you've found a therapist to work on this with you has pushed me to give that another shot. I've already seen two therapists, both of whom missed Sprout's tongue tie. But one was totally inexperienced, and the other... well, I have no idea. But she came up with this weird theory that the behavior was left over from his rapid breathing in the few days after birth. I'm trying to get in with the pediatric therapists at the other hospital system in the city in hopes of getting the sort of evaluation that you did.

[bubbamummy]

DD also 'clicks' when nursing, she even 'clicks' on the bottle - is this related to her high palate? or her supposedly 'fixed' tongue tie?

[jenfl]

Originally Posted by bubbamummy

DD also 'clicks' when nursing, she even 'clicks' on the bottle - is this related to her high palate? or her supposedly 'fixed' tongue tie?

When my DS clicks, my nipple comes partially or fully out of his mouth. Is that what happens for you, or is it just clicking in the course of "normal" nursing?

If she's actually losing the latch, I think it could be either. If the tongue doesn't have full function back, it could be causing the loss of suction. If her palate is high, it can be hard for the breast to fill that area and causes suction loss.

Or it could be both. Because, you know, one of those problems isn't hard enough to deal with alone. </sarcasm>

[Knitting Mama]

Ugh, so something has changed with Cecilia's latch in the last week. She's been nursing more, and now I'm developing swollen "buds" or blisters or whatever you want to call them on my nipples, and one's bled. It hurts to nurse, like it did when she was a newborn. Not happy with this! She's nursing in the same positions and holds as she always has, so I don't understand why the sudden change and pain.

eta: Is there a breast feeding subforum here? Maybe I can ask for help...

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by jenfl

When my DS clicks, my nipple comes partially or fully out of his mouth. Is that what happens for you, or is it just clicking in the course of "normal" nursing?

If she's actually losing the latch, I think it could be either. If the tongue doesn't have full function back, it could be causing the loss of suction. If her palate is high, it can be hard for the breast to fill that area and causes suction loss.

Huh. My DD does that - the clicking and losing the latch. It doesn't hurt, though, and she's gaining weight well. Usually she does it for 2-3 feedings (out of 8 million) a day.

It isn't normal?