Best Ways To Talk To My Medical DH About Not Cutting Our Baby

[~Adorkable~]

ok so i need all your help in finding the way to help my DH change his mind and feelings about circ.
i am now due in January so this needs to happen soon.

i need your folks' compassion in this thread, i have never and will never for a moment consider genital cutting on a child. I also believe he and I are in this together and need him on board. these two things seem in horrible conflict and i am crushed. i love and respect my DH very very much.

backstory:

• he is a medical profession and has had very little exposure to anyone that wasn't having health problems, so the only real exposure to foreskins was at least one really infected one on a old man that came to the ER.
• he has had nearly no exposure to small kids so despite that most if not all of my friends have intact boys he has not really been around that.
• we talked about this earlier while TTC and it was a totally overheated point with the otherwise really easygoing man that my DH is.
• his issue seems mostly that at some point in the future it can cause issues so why not take care of it now when its not a big deal
• he also has the "well im fine, right?" self defense stance.

my thoughts:

• telling him how great and useful a foreskin is will fall on deaf ears imho, i need to find an aspect that speaks to him.
• i think he believes that it is the kind of pain you get over and again i dont think thats is the argument to have. is a suffering build strength kind of person. and that is a totally other topic which in some cases i agree, but this is totally different than not getting a pony.
• he is very resistant to feeling like i am putting my foot down and dictating our choices. Understandably so, i am too dominate in this relationship too often, something that is both of our faults and bums both of us out.
• i am going to give him the link for Doctors agaist Circ and hope maybe that helps.

END RESULT!!
More in post#8
As it stands now we are %100 definitely keeping any sons we have, intact (any daughters too!) and over time my beloved husband will get to learn and see first hand all the reasons why. He has made a leap because he trust and loves me and understand that I find this important.



what other angles or sugestions for how to have this talk in a calm productive way can you folks

[beckyand3littlemonsters]

I don't really know much about this as it is not the done thing here however as didn't want to read and not reply, you could point out the fact that it would be your sons body therefore it should be for him to decide when he is older if he wants to be circumcised or not because at the end of the day if your ds when older is angry for the decision being taken away from him it will already be too late because it can't be undone.

[MyBoysBlue]

I too think that the main point you need to make is an ethical one. I think it might be best to steer clear of the sexual aspects and the health benefits and stick to the ethical.

I really think that this tread here on MDC really makes the point very well.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...369&highlight=

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by •Adorkable•

ok so i need all your help in finding the way to help my DH change his mind and feelings about circ.
i am now due in January so this needs to happen soon.

[*]he also has the "well im fine, right?" self defense stance.

anytime a partner has an emotional reaction, my rec is for mom to read this:
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

hth,
sus

[Carlin]

Show him this:

THYMOS: Journal of Boyhood Studies, Vol. 4, No. 1, Spring 2010, 78-90

LOST BOYS: AN ESTIMATE OF U.S. CIRCUMCISION-RELATED INFANT DEATHS

- Dan Bollinger

Abstract: Baby boys can and do succumb as a result of having their foreskin removed. Circumcision-related mortality rates are not known with certainty; this study estimates the scale of this problem. This study finds that approximately 117 neonatal circumcision-related deaths (9.01/100,000) occur annually in the United States, about 1.3% of male neonatal deaths from all causes. Because infant circumcision is elective, all of these deaths are avoidable. This study also identifies reasons why accurate data on these deaths are not available, some of the obstacles to preventing these deaths, and some solutions to overcome them.

From: http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html

and This: http://www.drmomma.org/2010/05/death...cumcision.html

and This: http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/effec...cision-on.html

I think the best way to talk to medical professionals is to speak to them in their own language.

Although, I didn't feel the need to discuss it with my husband any more than I would have discussed female circumcision, or whether to cut off our baby's fingers. It was a non-issue, but I understand that not everyone has that kind of relationship.

Good luck (And congratulations!!! I remember you from TTC a couple years ago!)

[Storm Bride]

I also recommend the above link.

Otherwise, you could point out that the "just in case" argument doesn't even make sense, as circ can cause serious complications, including death (rare, yes - but it has happened, and makes the "just in case something happens" argument completely invalid, imo). Also point out that intact care advice given to moms who didn't circ was (and often still is) wrong and probably led to a lot of problems that wouldn't have otherwise occurred.

My main point is the ethical one. Your ds has the choice to circumcise later, if he so chooses (and despite popular opinion, I believe it to be less painful for an adult, as the foreskin is no longer adhered to the glans!). He does not have the choice to uncircumcise himself. Restoration exists, but it's not true restoration of a real foreskin (which is a seriously misnamed body part.) I'm not sure how this point would play with your dh, but it's my single biggest reason not to circ.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by mama24-7

anytime a partner has an emotional reaction, my rec is for mom to read this:
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

hth,
sus

Don't show it to your dh, though. It's just for you to read and think about.

[~Adorkable~]

Had Talk, Good Outcome. thank you for your advice

yeah i have read that one link about men a long time ago and agree with a lot of it.

but more importantly, i decided to take the ethical approach many of you recommended, seemed like the best thing and also to show him the current states that show it being closer to 50/50 , since i think he thinks differently.

so i just talked to him and he was amazingly open about it, (i think i started the talk properly for a change)
he said he felt there was not much wrong with it but did not care that much and knew i did.
i told him that i wanted him to know where i was coming from and what i knew that made me feel so strong.
he listened to it really well and we talked about various points. and agreed i could send him a few link like the http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/ one.
he seemed to come mostly down to his son being normal as a teenager because kids are cruel. the numbers shocked him and made him feel better.

so im bummed that he would push the issue if the numbers were 85/15 rather than 55/45 like they are , but happy that he said he is basically totally ok with not cutting our babies and that we can go forward TOGETHER with that decision.

[Jane]

Yeah!!

I've found a direct line sometimes works on dads. I mention the stats for my state - it's far and away not the majority any more. That it's really imporatant to get a really good cosmetic result, as it's just cosmetic surgery, so you need to research it the way you would a nose job. You want someone who does a LOT of circs and is really, really good at it. Most docs feel the same way, so they are dropping out of doing them, since the numbers are just not there in this area. I also recommend waiting until breastfeeding is well established, so they have more comfort abilities and are already gaining weight when it's done. And, you just have to schedule it done before 12 pounds, because that's the weight limit on the table they strap them to.

After a matter-of-fact discussion, the part about the weight limit seems to hit them in the gut and, then, suddenly, it's off the table. Works for me.

I've also told my story to clients sometimes...I think circ is wrong. But that doesn't mean I don't like my partner's anatomy. I was born in the 70s. I'm used to the circ'd penis. It's "normal" to me. But I'd never circ my child because it's morally, ethically, and medically wrong. And his future partner won't feel the way I do. With a 70/30 split against circing...it will be fine.

[beru]

I have a suggestion. Even though he is already on board, it would be great to give him a little more understanding...He thinks circ is not big deal. That is a relatively easy position to take if you think the foreskin is a trivial appendage like a skin tag or a mole. Show him that it is not: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...o/prepuce.html

I think this is a great presentation for medically minded people.

[Greg B]

This should appeal to him:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...yStatement.pdf

It is written by doctors.

As far as his concerns, removing healthy tissue because he fears something that may or may not happen in the future is not a very good argument, or we would be removing women's breasts to prevent breast cancer. Or removing testicles to prevent testicular cancer. We do not because the benefits do not outweigh the negative consequences.

He is only fine because he has no reference with which to compare. And he will not realize how much his amputated foreskin is preventing him and you from having a much better sexual experience unless he restores. Unfortunate, but true.

I think it is ridiculous to think that it is better to circumcise an infant on the basis that it is not so bad when they are young. An infant cannot understand why he is being hurt, and as an infant with an immature penis, a doctor cannot judge how to amputate the foreskin so that when he is finally developed the results will be as hoped. It makes far better sense to wait until your son is and adult. the pain is less, he understands the reason for it, and the results are much more predictable.

It is clear your husband, doctor though he may be, is not clear headed and rational about this decision.

Regards

[Fyrestorm]

Ok -so DH only sees health problems - How about asking him to make a list of all the body parts he has seen with problems and then have him make a list of which of those he would like to prophetically remove from your child's body.

This might help him see how ridiculous that argument is.

Has he seen an ingrown toenail?
Does he recommend having your son's nails removed

[SleeplessMommy]

Originally Posted by •Adorkable•

so im bummed that he would push the issue if the numbers were 85/15 rather than 55/45 like they are , but happy that he said he is basically totally ok with not cutting our babies and that we can go forward TOGETHER with that decision.

Since you are in WA, it may be much closer to 85 intact/15 circ. If you have a midwife, ask her privately about the circ rate. It sounds like he is agreeing with intactness - that is great!

My older son is 7 and has not been in any "group" situations so far. There is a lot more privacy in locker rooms these days for many reasons.

[~Adorkable~]

Can folks please take a moment and see that my husband is working really hard to learn. I know all this info, all the websites and am a "intactivist" in the most solid sense and have been my whole life.
I can here for some compassion for my struggle and to brainstorm.

As it stands now we are %100 definitely keeping any sons we have, intact (any daughters too!) and over time my beloved husband will get to learn and see first hand all the reasons why. He has made a leap because he trust and loves me and understand that I find this important.

I know this is a charged emotional issues for so many of us, it certaining is for me. my challenge and I believe in part all of our quest is to find ways to be stong and convincing enough in our discussions so that we can save children and respectful and understanding so that to be parents will truly listen to us.

[prothyraia]

Coming at it from a strictly logical, medical standpoint:

Elective surgery on newborn = medically bad idea

Open wound in diaper w/ urine & feces = medically bad idea

open wound in diaper w/ difficulty estimating blood loss in case of hemorrhage and tiny newborn blood volume = medically bad idea

Really, from a medical standpoint, there is no compelling reason to do elective (or preventative ) surgery, even "minor" surgery, on a newborn. If an adult or older child has issues they can be dealt with when the person is more robust and hygenic than a baby.

I'd also gently challenge his assumption that it's not a big deal. In my opinion, the argument that it's better to do it to newborns because they won't remember it is deeply flawed. Just because he won't remember the pain doesn't mean it won't matter- he'll still experience it. He also won't remember the way you snuggle him, or the way you treat him, or that you sang him to sleep- but that still matters, somehow.

In almost every other arena we accept that it's better for an adult to subjected to something unpleasant than a baby. I mean "thank goodness he broke his wrist when he was 6 months old and won't remember it, and not when he was 30!" is a pretty ridiculous statement, no?

[~Adorkable~]

Originally Posted by prothyraia

In my opinion, the argument that it's better to do it to newborns because they won't remember it is deeply flawed. Just because he won't remember the pain doesn't mean it won't matter- he'll still experience it. He also won't remember the way you snuggle him, or the way you treat him, or that you sang him to sleep- but that still matters, somehow.

This is one of the greatest bits of thinking on this particular aspect I have ever heard!! I have long looked for these words when working to explain why it mattered when it's not remembered.
Thank you

[tammylsmith]

Originally Posted by prothyraia

In almost every other arena we accept that it's better for an adult to subjected to something unpleasant than a baby. I mean "thank goodness he broke his wrist when he was 6 months old and won't remember it, and not when he was 30!" is a pretty ridiculous statement, no?

Wow, that makes soo much sense. How eloquently put! I wish I had that skill when rebutting statements irl

[jenP]

Originally Posted by •Adorkable•

[*]we talked about this earlier while TTC and it was a totally overheated point with the otherwise really easygoing man that my DH is.[*]his issue seems mostly that at some point in the future it can cause issues so why not take care of it now when its not a big deal


he seemed to come mostly down to his son being normal as a teenager because kids are cruel. the numbers shocked him and made him feel better.

Dear Adorkable,
That is awesome that you had some good talks with your husband and that he is on board with keeping all of your children intact. He sounds like an intelligent and logical guy, and when you laid out the ethical argument he got it.
Now that he has agreed to keep your children intact, I would advise dropping the subject completely. It will take him some time to process any issues he may have about his own circumcision, and time and space seem to really do the trick for that. And I found with my own DH, the longer he's had an intact son, the more and more convinced he is of the evil of circumcision. It has taken a really long time, and that is just fine. For instance, he was on board with not circ'ing as soon as I mentioned the pain factor, and the fact that it is not necessary. So great, baby was intact. But despite all the facts I have mentioned and him talking to friends who are restoring, it took him about five years to come around to really grasping the fact that the foreskin is important for sexual functioning. Really. It seems obvious to us after one look at a video with explanation, but for a cut guy those self-defense mechanisms just won't let those facts sink in.
By the parts I bolded from your posts above, it looks like your DH, just like mine, is otherwise completely rational and logical but on the circumcision issue emotions take over. It's my opinion that when a man talks about wanting to protect his son from "future problems" or "locker room issues" or a "need to do it later," what he is really doing is trying to convince himself that HIS circumcision did those things for HIM. As in, "I'm so glad I was circumcised so I never had infections. I'm so glad I was circumcised so I was never teased in the locker room. I'm so glad I was circumcised so I never had a woman recoil when she saw my penis. I'm so glad I was circumcised as a baby so I didn't have to go through the awful pain later...." and so on and so forth. After all, a cut guy kinda has to convince himself he is glad he was cut and that it really served some purpose and did him some good, or else he might start to feel pretty bad. So naturally it is hard for him to admit that his son won't have locker room issues, or infections, or rejections, or any of that, if he isn't circumcised. If his son isn't circumcised, and has no issues, then that means his own circumcision was for naught. And that is an idea that can take years to get used to.
So, rejoice! that you are NOT fighting with your husband! He respects human rights and will protect your son from harm and he is not resentful of you! So, he still thinks circ isn't such a huge deal and could even potentially be a good idea for some people. Oh well, he'll get over those ideas as time goes on and he sees his son. No need for it to happen right away.

Best to both of you!

Jen

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by •Adorkable•

Can folks please take a moment and see that my husband is working really hard to learn. I know all this info, all the websites and am a "intactivist" in the most solid sense and have been my whole life.
I can here for some compassion for my struggle and to brainstorm.

As it stands now we are %100 definitely keeping any sons we have, intact (any daughters too!) and over time my beloved husband will get to learn and see first hand all the reasons why. He has made a leap because he trust and loves me and understand that I find this important.

I know this is a charged emotional issues for so many of us, it certaining is for me. my challenge and I believe in part all of our quest is to find ways to be stong and convincing enough in our discussions so that we can save children and respectful and understanding so that to be parents will truly listen to us.

Great job Adorkable! Such a lucky boy. Sound's like your husband is a thoughtful and reasonable guy. Hope everything goes smoothly for you.

[VeezieTG]

responding then reading, so excuse me...

you could tell him that your baby WILL at some point, no matter what, get a cold, and have boogers. sometimes there'll be nasty snot. sometimes, boogers so hard and crusty that they'll make the inside of his nose bleed! but you're not going to cut off his nose!!

ok. let me go read now so's i can get serious...