Do You Use Child Leashes? - Page 8

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by MammaB21

My thought is that leashes are used for dogs as a way to show authority. It's a 'training' tool, and I don't train my children. If I see a dog on a leash tugging and pulling in the opposite direction, I chalk it up to bad dog ownership or inexperience in dog training. The leash is there to be slightly tugged at any time the dog wonders a bit from your side. You stop, dog stops. You walk, dog walks. You run, dog runs. The dog isn't even supposed to be allowed to poop on walks because you have control over him just from the use of the leash.

This whole post is so off base I don't even know where to start!

I own 4 dogs and have been working professionally with animals since I was old enough to legally work, so I feel as though I'm qualified to comment on this.

First, why wouldn't a dog be able to poop on a walk?! That's crazy. Isn't that the point of walking your dog, so they eliminate outside, and not on your carpet? Most responsible pet owners carry poop bags so they can clean up after their dogs. I've never met a dog owner who discouraged their dog from pooping while on a walk, unless of course they stopped in the play ground and the dog was trying to pop a squat in the sand at the bottom of the slide or something.

And second, leashes are not an authoritarian tool. LOL. Goodness. They are, first and foremost, designed to keep dogs safe. That is their number 1 use. No matter how experienced a pet owner someone is, or no matter how good they are at training their dog, some breeds HAVE to be on a leash at all times or they will be gone, dead, injured, hit by a car, etc. Scent hounds come to mind.

People train dogs to walk nicely on a leash because it aids in keeping dogs safe. Some breeds are large enough to drag an adult around by the leash, why wouldn't they train them? The purpose of a leash to keep them safe is pointless if the dog will use that leash to drag its walker into traffic. They aid in controlling dogs to keep them safe, but the way you've outlined their use as being some sort of torture tool to make a dogs life miserable is so inaccurate.

Third, the vast majority of dog owners want their dogs to have FUN and be relaxed on a walk. Expecting a dog to perform so tightly in obedience that it may not eliminate is usually reserved for competition rings, not walking in the park.

And lastly, comparing dogs and children NEVER works. My dogs also eat off the floor, lick their buts, roll in bird poop, and get their baths outside with a garden hose. Their is NOTHING remotely similar between them or my preschooler, even if some of the things I use on both might share the same name or look similar or serve similar purposes.

A leash on a dog and a leash on a child do not at all serve the same purpose. Comparing the two to vilainize child leashes is a comparison fail. Apples and oranges.

[mamaofthree]

i think once again her post is being miss read. what i got from it was that that was a reason that some people would view a leash as degrading to children. someone asked why people would see them that way.
and once again people who choose to use a leash on their child need not feel attacked just because someone else does not choose to use one. am i worse parent because i choose not to use them? do i care less about my children's safety? i could turn all the arguments around. i could feel attacked because i just let my kids walk ahead of me, i let them run... does someone feel i let my children do dangerous things because i don't have a leash on them?

h

[Eclipsepearl]

No, those arguments don't hold water.

Some parents in some situations need to use a leash. If you live in a remote place, never travel by air, never are in a busy parking lot and you have a very good child who stays close by, you don't need one. I had a very active child who showed no caution. He wasn't verbal until 2 1/2 and being bilingual, understood the other language better. I fly long haul international flights about twice a year. If someone who barely steps out of their house thinks I'm a bad parent because I occasionally used a leash on my child, too bad.

No one is saying parents have to use them but not to judge those who do. I used one on my first but not on my next two. I care about them just as much!

I never used it to "control" him, just to keep him from getting hurt or lost.

But to say they're degrading is not looking at things realistically. These parents might have very little in common with parents who feel they have to use this to keep their child safe. It doesn't harm the child nor is it degrading. If you over-analyze almost anything with babies, you could make a "degrading" argument about almost anything.

[mamaofthree]

here it is again... it is like some sort of contest. it shouldn't be. i have said it before i have 5 kids, some stay close others run like the wind, i take them out, we do things, live in the city, walk thru parking lots, walk around busy streets, etc. it seems that people who choose them want to justify why they use them to those who choose not to. it isn't a contest as to who is the better parent. i have said other non-users have said it.. if you need it use it. for goodness sake you don't need to go on and on about how come you needed it. you just did. that is why i posted my comments above, if my kids run crazy, make a b-line for the street and do all those other things and i don't use one, could someone say i am a bad parent? if not they way does everyone who uses them think everyone is thinking they aren't good parents?

h

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by mamaofthree

if not they way does everyone who uses them think everyone is thinking they aren't good parents?

h

Because we've heard it over and over and over and over and over. Honestly, how many people have told you, flat out, that you're a bad parent or abusive, because you don't use a harness? I've had multiple people say that, both here and elsewhere. Were you saying that? I guess not - your posts did strike me that way, but you've said you weren't, so you weren't. But, when you've heard it over and over again, and the arguments for why it's abusive include the "my situation is just like yours and/or worse than yours and I never needed one", it does tend to make one sensitive to that particular line of thinking.

[Eclipsepearl]

You have the kind of lifestyle and the kind of kids who don't need them. That's fine!

You probably just look out for the occasional traffic or whatever. That's good! You're kids might "go crazy" from time to time but they probably don't bolt or have autism or whatever. You probably don't fly alone on international flights with three small kids like I did. You probably don't know what that's like. You don't need to justify not using one or imply that it's not necessary for other parents.

[sapphire_chan]

(note: dd has been in a harness once in her life, otherwise, I haven't needed one.)

Originally Posted by mamaofthree

if not they way does everyone who uses them think everyone is thinking they aren't good parents?

h

Because even people who can see their utility use offensive language regarding them.

sorry but I think they are degrading. I cringe every time I see one. I can see their utility but I hope to avoid it.

And the people who don't think they have any place as a tool are even blunter:

I think they're ghastly.

Both comments are from MDC mamas who could be expected to keep the child's feelings in mind, imagine how non-gentle adults who disapprove of harnesses would act?

The more people there are who are critical of child harnesses, the more chances for the experience of this MDCer to be repeated:

Mainly because I remember my mom putting a leash on me, I remember the stares and comments from strangers and I remember how embarrassing and humiliating it was.

She would not have been embarrassed and humiliated without the stares and comments from strangers.

[cschick]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

First, why wouldn't a dog be able to poop on a walk?! That's crazy. Isn't that the point of walking your dog, so they eliminate outside, and not on your carpet? Most responsible pet owners carry poop bags so they can clean up after their dogs. I've never met a dog owner who discouraged their dog from pooping while on a walk, unless of course they stopped in the play ground and the dog was trying to pop a squat in the sand at the bottom of the slide or something.

I think the post above was a mis-interpretation of the teaching that a dog shouldn't poop while on heel, but can poop when on free (which is what we teach in the training I have done). It allows you some additional control over where they do poop--we have really anal neighbors who could have a breakdown if a dog pooped on their lawn even if you cleaned it up, so the dogs I've owned/fostered have mainly all pooped in the common area if we could get there in time.

And if your dog seriously needs to poop, umm, get him to an appropriate place and put him on free.

[dex_millie]

I have no problems with a Child Lease. This thing that it is for dog, gets me. Who said a dog was made to be on a lease, they on a lease so they don't bother or hurt anyone, what is wrong with wanting the same protection for your child ohhh yea because we know a lease to mean for dogs. I see it as a way to be careful for those people that have children that tend to run away.

I rather a lease than my child running in the street, getting lost at a busy place or screaming to get out of the stroller but can't because the place is too busy and it would be too much to hold their hand and push a stroller.

I was even thinking those leases where you can make it go long and then short again would be great!! That way I can let DD go to the end of the aisle in the store and stop her there. She tends to want to walk to other aisles without looking for me of course (she 14months) and she doesn't stay in a cart once it stop moving she actually will get up and stand in it.

Once again I see it as if you feel your child needs it go ahead, if not then fine but don't critize those you see with it.

For me by a certain age I wouldn't expect to use them. My son is 3 and for his personality I would say he is too old for it. I never had to worry with him. For those worried about other people making children feel bad I guess that would have to be at a certain age

[dex_millie]

Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl

You have the kind of lifestyle and the kind of kids who don't need them. That's fine!

You probably just look out for the occasional traffic or whatever. That's good! You're kids might "go crazy" from time to time but they probably don't bolt or have autism or whatever. You probably don't fly alone on international flights with three small kids like I did. You probably don't know what that's like. You don't need to justify not using one or imply that it's not necessary for other parents.

: I can't believe I am on this thread like this and I never owned one but I understand the need some people will have for them. And really rather see that than a frantic mom running in the street for her child.

I travel internationally also mostly it was with 1 child but now it is going to be two (7/8 hour flight with stops). I was thinking of getting one for that and for my parents when they are with my children. I am sure my 1 year old can out run my mom and my 3 1/2 can but he listens.

[Dr.Worm]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

In the past people have said that, flat out, and I think that has contributed to the way some of us 'hear' comments about it. Not that this is fair, but it is human.

Yep I just don't want feelings to get hurt from moms who do use them.

[olien]

yes.

We originally got one - backpack style - for the airport. I was just 8mo pg and ds was a fast 17mo. I couldnt keep up with him at that point I just knew it was going to be tough.

It was the best $15 I ever spent

It gave him the freedom to be on the move & us the peace of mind we needed.

It also came in handy at the end of my pg. I could take him for much needed walks & keep him at my slower pace. I have also used it at festivals & other crowded places. He loves the freedom & actually asks to wear his 'pack'.

AP or not - I love it & so does DS.

BTW I dont use it all the time maybe 2 or 3x a month.

[Dr.Worm]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Because we've heard it over and over and over and over and over. Honestly, how many people have told you, flat out, that you're a bad parent or abusive, because you don't use a harness? I've had multiple people say that, both here and elsewhere. Were you saying that? I guess not - your posts did strike me that way, but you've said you weren't, so you weren't. But, when you've heard it over and over again, and the arguments for why it's abusive include the "my situation is just like yours and/or worse than yours and I never needed one", it does tend to make one sensitive to that particular line of thinking.

Yes, I don't even use them but I feel the need to defend the moms who do.

[MammaB21]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

This whole post is so off base I don't even know where to start!

I own 4 dogs and have been working professionally with animals since I was old enough to legally work, so I feel as though I'm qualified to comment on this.

First, why wouldn't a dog be able to poop on a walk?! That's crazy. Isn't that the point of walking your dog, so they eliminate outside, and not on your carpet? Most responsible pet owners carry poop bags so they can clean up after their dogs. I've never met a dog owner who discouraged their dog from pooping while on a walk, unless of course they stopped in the play ground and the dog was trying to pop a squat in the sand at the bottom of the slide or something.

And second, leashes are not an authoritarian tool. LOL. Goodness. They are, first and foremost, designed to keep dogs safe. That is their number 1 use. No matter how experienced a pet owner someone is, or no matter how good they are at training their dog, some breeds HAVE to be on a leash at all times or they will be gone, dead, injured, hit by a car, etc. Scent hounds come to mind.

People train dogs to walk nicely on a leash because it aids in keeping dogs safe. Some breeds are large enough to drag an adult around by the leash, why wouldn't they train them? The purpose of a leash to keep them safe is pointless if the dog will use that leash to drag its walker into traffic. They aid in controlling dogs to keep them safe, but the way you've outlined their use as being some sort of torture tool to make a dogs life miserable is so inaccurate.

Third, the vast majority of dog owners want their dogs to have FUN and be relaxed on a walk. Expecting a dog to perform so tightly in obedience that it may not eliminate is usually reserved for competition rings, not walking in the park.

And lastly, comparing dogs and children NEVER works. My dogs also eat off the floor, lick their buts, roll in bird poop, and get their baths outside with a garden hose. Their is NOTHING remotely similar between them or my preschooler, even if some of the things I use on both might share the same name or look similar or serve similar purposes.

A leash on a dog and a leash on a child do not at all serve the same purpose. Comparing the two to vilainize child leashes is a comparison fail. Apples and oranges.

This is really off topic, but I just wanted to comment on it briefly. I'm not a dog trainer, but from the research I have done I've found that dogs have a greater need to follow rules. It's part of their nature, it's not mean. I didn't say anywhere in my post that I think people should be mean or 'torture' their dogs or make their lives miserable. That just boggles my mind that my post was interpreted that way. A trained dog is a happy dog. I live in a city which means no place for a dog to poop while on a walk. That is what the back yard is for. Bathroom time. A walk is for excersize, training, stimulation, work for the dog and at the end, play time. In a pack setting a dog wouldn't be able to poop wherever he pleases. There is a time and a place for that. I said nothing about dog parks or the like. As for a leash being there to protect the dog.....sorry, but IMHO that's second in importance. The reason it's a law to have a dog on a leash is to protect other PEOPLE. Sure a dog can run out into traffic, but in doing so there is potential to cause an accident in which case the human lives at risk take priority over the dogs. Yes, I'd like my animals to be safe and it's one reason to use a leash, but the main point in leash training is the training. Owners want a dog who knows it's place in the pack, and the dog wants to be fulfilled in that way. It's a win win situation and isn't at all bad for the dog. There is way more to having a dog behave on leash than just the safety of the dog.

Phew. Okay, now back to the original topic.

[MammaB21]

Originally Posted by cschick

I think the post above was a mis-interpretation of the teaching that a dog shouldn't poop while on heel, but can poop when on free (which is what we teach in the training I have done). It allows you some additional control over where they do poop--we have really anal neighbors who could have a breakdown if a dog pooped on their lawn even if you cleaned it up, so the dogs I've owned/fostered have mainly all pooped in the common area if we could get there in time.

And if your dog seriously needs to poop, umm, get him to an appropriate place and put him on free.

Yup. Exactly. I wasn't talking about punishing a dog for pooping on a walk. The way I've seen it done is to just not stop for the dog. I've read, heard, and experienced first hand that a lot of the 'potty stops' dogs make on walks are simply to mark their territory, which isn't something that should be encouraged. There is plenty of time for a potty break before and after the actual walk which should be more of a mission, training session, or work out.

[MammaB21]

Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl

You have the kind of lifestyle and the kind of kids who don't need them. That's fine!

You probably just look out for the occasional traffic or whatever. That's good! You're kids might "go crazy" from time to time but they probably don't bolt or have autism or whatever. You probably don't fly alone on international flights with three small kids like I did. You probably don't know what that's like. You don't need to justify not using one or imply that it's not necessary for other parents.

See, this is exactly what I was offended by earlier on in this thread which is what has prompted me to continue to post. (And I'm not trying to call you out Eclipsepearl. I've seen other similar posts so I quoted yours as an example). I think that those of us who are making a choice not to use child leashes are taking this tone as an insult. It's basically disregarding all the reasons we've stated for not using one by simply saying we have it easier or we must just be lucky, or have a less complicated life or a calmer child...etc, etc. Heaven forbid we actually have not so compliant children and chose not to parent the same way as someone else. What I've quoted above is just taking on the exact same attitude you're trying to defend against.

I think all of us here can agree that it is hard work raising toddlers who are exploring their very new and exciting world. It's hard to find a way to keep them by our side and safe. It's tough to find a happy medium between allowing them to wonder and explore while not losing our minds with fear. Let's not assume to know each others circumstances, because that just isn't fair. I'm working just as hard as all of you who are using leashes and vise versa. I think those of us who are deciding against leashes have already made it clear that we're not against other parents making that choice. I'd just like to see the same respect in return here.

[Zan&Zav]

my son has autism. he has no problem walking into the ocean in low temps. he doesnt feel pain. he has no sense of danger. this summer he will be wearing a leash. he is 3. i have gotten rude comments but i don't care. he is safe. he also hates being touched since birth. this is the safest way for us for him to be happy.

[rachel1496]

I've never used one on my niece and I'll likely never have to use one on my son. My nephew however, totally different story. Not only is he a bolter he has absolutely no sense of danger. I know for a fact he will run headlong into rush hour traffic because I was present for the 15 heart stopping seconds last week when he almost did just that. It still takes my breath away and makes me sick just thinking about what would have happened had my sister not caught him in time, less than 2 feet from the edge of the road.

He is still expected to walk beside us when we're out and if he doesn't then he has to hold someone's hand even if he's wearing his monkey backpack but the tether gives the security we need to know that if he does choose to bolt he can't get far enough to put himself in imminent danger.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by MammaB21

What I've quoted above is just taking on the exact same attitude you're trying to defend against.

What people are trying to defend against is the notion that because some people don't use leashes, that all people shouldn't use leashes.

This argument very much reminds me of the organic food debates. A group of people on a budget who are fortunate enough to be able to source out great deals or co-ops for organic products assume that everyone should, regardless of their income or geographic locations. Unfortunately, that is impossible.

Because ONE person (or a group of people) can do something, doesn't mean everyone can. That is the tone that people are defending themselves against, and rightfully so. It is painfully indignant of some people to place their expectations on families that they don't even know!

When someone says they use it so their autistic child doesn't run into the ocean, or because they have bad back and can't chase a toddler before they hit traffic, or because of some other reason, no one is disrespecting your choices, they're simply saying "hey, I'm not a lazy SOB who doesn't care about my kids, it just happens to work for us".

I'm really sorry you're offended, but perhaps standing back for a minute and thinking about why some parents feel the NEED to defend themselves will clear some things up.

[Dr.Worm]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

What people are trying to defend against is the notion that because some people don't use leashes, that all people shouldn't use leashes.

This argument very much reminds me of the organic food debates. A group of people on a budget who are fortunate enough to be able to source out great deals or co-ops for organic products assume that everyone should, regardless of their income or geographic locations. Unfortunately, that is impossible.

Because ONE person (or a group of people) can do something, doesn't mean everyone can. That is the tone that people are defending themselves against, and rightfully so. It is painfully indignant of some people to place their expectations on families that they don't even know!

When someone says they use it so their autistic child doesn't run into the ocean, or because they have bad back and can't chase a toddler before they hit traffic, or because of some other reason, no one is disrespecting your choices, they're simply saying "hey, I'm not a lazy SOB who doesn't care about my kids, it just happens to work for us".

I'm really sorry you're offended, but perhaps standing back for a minute and thinking about why some parents feel the NEED to defend themselves will clear some things up.