do anyone else's kids have trouble sleeping?

[damona]

i wasn't sure where to put this, i figured this was the best spot.

it's 10:30pm and my 2 older boys are upstairs arguing and fussing at each other and making a lot of noise. they share a room. my 2 younger boys are sound asleep in their room, thank goodness.

we go through this about 3 or 4 nights a week. these 2 seem to function just fine on about 2 hours or less of sleep, and i am getting completely exhausted with dealing with this. by the time they finally settle down, sometimes it's 3 or 4 in the morning! i feel that i can't go to sleep until they do, so i can't go to bed early anymore, no matter how tired i am. my oldest has literally stayed up all night at least a dozen times and then gone to school and stayed up til his bedtime the next night.

they are both severely adhd, both on meds, but when it wears off... they just go and go and go. i can't give it to them later in the day during school b/c then they can't focus at all in class. my older son takes 1mg clonidine at night, but it doesn't always help. i hate to medicate them so much, but i don't know what else to do! we tried melatonin, but that didn't really do anything.

their bedtimes are 8.30 (for my 9yo) and 9 (for my 11yo), but it doesn't seem to matter, the younger just waits up for the older and then the chaos starts.

my dh works third shift, so he's never here to help deal with this, and, of course, they don't seem to do this on the nights when he is home. he tells me i'm worrying too much but hey, he's the one who gets to sleep 8 or 10 hours usually, so what does he care, right? ugh.

so... does anyone else have night owls? what do you do? how do you handle it? help!

[childsplay]

The first thing that comes to my mind are the meds. I know almost nothing about what they would be on, but I'm guessing it's something that calms them during the day? (you mentioned it wearing off, this is why I'm guessing this)
I'm just throwing this out there but could you, say around 6:30 get them doing some vigorous activities. Like racing each other on bikes, racing each other on foot, kicking a soccer ball around, swimming, running, jumping, climbing? Jumping jacks or skipping rope? For an hour or so. I'm just thinking that if they're calm all day they may not have worked out all the energy that's in their bodies, therefore they're on overdrive at midnight, beyond tired, but practically hovering off the floor.

Maybe an earlier bedtime for your younger guy? Without having to go to sleep right away. (like 8 or 8:15?) Just to give him a chance to spend some quiet time with a book then fall into a deeper sleep before your older DS goes in?
Could you keep your older guy up and away from the room later, like until 10? Like laying on your bed with you, reading or watching tv?
Maybe tell him that since he's older he needs to make sure his little brother gets enough sleep...or something along those lines.

Good luck and I hope you get some rest soon!

[Caneel]

I have no experience with this (well sort of but not to the same extreme) but a close friend of mine did with her son. Like the pp mentioned, the one thing that ended up working for them was exercise. Her DH would take their 9 yo on a 3-4 mile run each night before dinner. It was, however, an huge time commitment so that might not work for you for 4 kids and a DH on 3rd shift. Good luck.

[NiteNicole]

Have you read Sleepless in America? You need to! It's excellent for explaining how lack of sleep causes this kind of behavior, which makes it then harder to settle down and sleep.

Are they in school or out for the summer? If they're out for the summer, this a GREAT time to get Sleepless and let the whole family know that things are going to be different and everyone is going to feel better for it.

[phathui5]

Talk a little bit about their diets...

What are they doing in terms of exercise?

[Grace and Granola]

I would ditto that the lack of sleep can't be helping the problem!

I only have experience in that my two boys share a room (sometimes) and it can cause major problems. They are only 3 and 4, but when they are in the same room, they keep each other up for an hour or two on a night when separately they would be asleep in well under an hour. They really want to be together, but often, I move my younger to another sleeping area. Have you tried that? It would take one very stimulating element completely out of the picture. That way, even if they stay up on their own, maybe they would do so quietly and it wouldn't be so taxing on you. Can one of your kids read books in your bed or a couch while the other one is in the bedroom?

FWIW, my kids' bedtime is 8:00 and it is now almost 10pm and they are still up talking/bickering and they are LITTLE!

Good luck...sleep stuff is SO hard!

[damona]

thanks, everyone for the support

childsplay, they both take concerta for the adhd. my oldest is outside from the moment he gets home until i drag him in to eat and go to bed. my 2nd is a much more "indoorsy" kind of kid. he's terrified of bugs and getting sunburned and about 500 other reasons why he won't go outside! maybe i can get him to do some exercises with me, inside.

i haven't read sleepless in america, but it is now on my library list. they are just about out of school now.

phathui, what do you mean about their diets? i don't allow soda or juices except once in awhile, they don't get a lot of sugary processed junk, i try to keep the hfcs and food colourings to a minimum, and we mostly eat gfcf at home, cuz my 7yo is on the diet. am i missing something obvious? (sorry, i realize that sounds slightly snarky. it's not meant to be.)

maybe it will be easier now that it's summer vacation, since they don't have to be up so early, it won't matter as much if they stay up a bit later

[LynnS6]

FWIW, our 9 year old ds needs a lot less sleep that the books say. He doesn't fall asleep until 10 and is usually up at 7. That's definitely not the same as being up all night, but going to bed at 10 isn't all that unusual at our house. yesterday, ds slept until 8 am, and then couldn't fall asleep until after 11.

The rule for ds is that he gets to read until he feels sleepy. If he still can't fall asleep, he has to be quiet in his bed for 20 minutes (we set the timer). If he's still awake after 20 minutes, then he can get up and be up with us for another 20-30 before we send him back to bed.

do they fall asleep quickly if they can keep their bodies still or are they just not tired? If they fall asleep quickly, then I think the solution should focus on helping them find a way to keep still. If it's that they're just not tired, it's harder. Have you tried weighted blankets? Yoga?

[chkpea]

Hi just wondering if you should maybe cross post this in the special needs forum, just a suggestion since they both have adhd and maybe some parents that frequent that area would have some other suggestions. I feel for you. I get frustrated when my 6 year old won't go to bed before 9, I can't imagine walking in your shoes, hopefully you get some answers soon. Also, I would maybe discuss this with their dr. just to go over things. They are probably calm the next day also due to the fact they don't have energy from having little to no sleep.

[karika]

my first thought is diet. Any amount of food colorings will produce ADHD symptoms which would include sleeplessness. Do they get any caffeine? Is any sugar they get organic unrefined sugar? White sugar produces a much different effect for some reason. I also would suspect the meds may have a side effect of stimulant (but I do not know I admit, I am just throwing it out there). For instance, ritalin helps some children focus in school, but for others it makes them like wired coke fiends... I would recommend the GFCFSF diet and no food colorings, msg, preservatives or any other chemicals, no caffeine or white sugar or HFCS. If you are committed to continuing with pharmaceuticals, contact the person that prescribed the medicines for your sons and tell them about the sleeplessness. Many parents that are trying the natural approach with ADHD with changing the diet use melatonin to assist in sleepiness. In our home, I do not have a set bedtime. I let the children go until they want to sleep, but I also homeschool so we have no reason to have a schedule. I just watch dd1 (who is not dx but most likely ADHD) for signs of sleepiness and facilitate her settling down then by doing the things that help her settle down.

[buttercup784ever]

I actually just went to a sleep conference where they discussed melatonin. I was wondering how you used it? A lot of people mistakenly take it as a sleep aid (large doses right before bed), when it's not been proven to work that way. What has been proven to work is taking small doses (like .5 mg) about 4.5 - 5 hrs before bedtime everyday. Also no t.v., computer, video games for 1-2 hrs before bedtime. It's best to lower the lights in the house, too. Any amount of light can be stimulating. I haven't tried this, btw. Just passing on what the scientists are saying.

I would definitely talk to whoever is prescribing the ADHD meds. My son is on Focalin, and sometimes he does have sleep issues, but they are rare. It actually works the other way for us as he goes to sleep all right, but then wakes up much earlier than normal.

[heatherdeg]

This will sound strange, but try fish oil. It had a PROFOUND change on my son's sleep and it's gone on to equally and profoundly help two other mothers I know of with the same issues. Please try this before melatonin as melatonin induces sleep where fish oil just supports the neurology that needs help functioning properly.

Honestly, I didn't give my son fish oil thinking it would have ANYTHING to do with his sleep... it just did. He had developmental problems that we were trying to help. We gave him Nordic Naturals 3-6-9 Omega complete liquid (NOT the kids version) at 1 tsp/day starting at age 3-1/2yo. Within 7 days, he went from 6 fitful hours out of 24 to 9-10 solid hours/night and added a 1-3 hour nap daily.

You can also try a calcium-magnesium mix. If you can find one with boron & vit. D as well, all the better. Cal-mag is supposed to have a calming affect on the body and if your kids don't have enough of it, it can disrupt sleep.

As for diet, removing the dyes is great and part of the Feingold diet deals with that. That diet is supposed to be well-known for helping with ADHD. It removes dyes, specific preservatives and (hopefully temporarily) a number of fresh foods high in salicylates. You remove the list of stuff for 4-6 weeks then add them back in to "test" for sensitivity. I'll be honest: I've heard about this diet for easily 5 years but the overwhelming majority of people who were strict with it have seen SOME kind of positive impact even if it's not the one they were initially seeking.

My ds is now 6yo and flagged for ADHD--heavy on the "H". He just had the vision test and CAP audiogram/hearing test to rule out other things that can present as ADHD (convergence insufficiency for vision and auditory processing disorder for hearing). We stopped giving him the fish oil a few months ago (accidentally--life got chaotic with multiple house-hunting trips for an out-of-state relocation). He DOES still sleep, but he wakes once during the night most nights and I see bedtime becoming later and later... so it may be time for us to go back to it.

Please Google melatonin and kids to see the issues/controversy around using it. I don't remember all of it now, but I remember thinking that (at that time--with only one, small child) I would suffer while seeking an alternative before giving in to it. At the end of the day, if nothing else works you do what you have to. But there are other things available to try first.

[yarngoddess]

Heatherdeg, very interesting about the fish oil. I used to take fish oil, but it upset my stomach so bad I had to quit taking it. I am going to try it with my kids. You know, when you have kids that CANNOT sleep, and you've tried Everything else to get them to sleep Melatonin can be a life saver. Yes there are negative experiences with it, and people that disagree with children taking melatonin, however there are many similar experiences with kids that take all kinds of medications. For me, and for all of my kids we started slowly with the Melatonin and I kept a journal of their behavior, their appetite, what they ate and when and how long they slept. My kids went from not sleeping more than 3 hrs a night to 8hrs solid sleep. THey also started taking naps when needed during the day. Their behavior during the day went from Horrible and Stressfull to Kind and Sweet and FUN again.

To the OP- I'm so sorry you are struggling with this problem with the older boys. Is there anyway you can seperate them? I know that growing up with my older brother (5yrs older) if we were in the same room we couldn't sleep. We would talk, play, fight, fart and just be goofy kids. Once we were in different rooms...things got better.
I saw that they are on good diets and that's great! I see that the older boy is very active- but what about having them do more strenious activity, ie. running or swimming laps for a designated time frame? Instead of playing outside...having him RUN for 30min? Another thought is to start Yoga. That is a proven form or exercize that can help with sleep problems. My kids have benefited Greatly from some Yoga stretching before dinner.

I know it's hectic and that you are tired- but what kind of Wind Down routine do the older boy's have? My 8yr old has problems turning his brain off, and often will continue to "Play" in his head long after the rest of the family is sleeping....just something to think about. You also need to get some sleep yourself. They are old enough to be able to stay in their beds unless there is a problem or emergency. If you don't sleep, you aren't going to be clear headded enough to handle the kids during the day. Hope something here helps you.....

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by yarngoddess

Heatherdeg, very interesting about the fish oil. I used to take fish oil, but it upset my stomach so bad I had to quit taking it. I am going to try it with my kids. You know, when you have kids that CANNOT sleep, and you've tried Everything else to get them to sleep Melatonin can be a life saver. Yes there are negative experiences with it, and people that disagree with children taking melatonin, however there are many similar experiences with kids that take all kinds of medications.

Having had a kid with such severe sleep issues that dh and I slept in shifts, I understand what you're saying... which is why I posted the part below that I boldfaced.

Originally Posted by heatherdeg

Please Google melatonin and kids to see the issues/controversy around using it. I don't remember all of it now, but I remember thinking that (at that time--with only one, small child) I would suffer while seeking an alternative before giving in to it. At the end of the day, if nothing else works you do what you have to. But there are other things available to try first.

I was just offering an option before going a more controversial route... I hope I didn't offend anyone.