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A grateful thank you and a few questions

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
I'm aware I lack the basic criteria of a desired member here at "mothering" but it's been extremely difficult to find a male oriented resource center with such great information as I've found here. Please, just a few questions and I promise to slink back to my den.

I wanted first to thank and congratulate the membership participation in this particular sub forum, not only for quantity but quality of opinions and information. I'm a "source" person so it's refreshing to see references listed with many of the opinions submitted here. A rarity in the age of the "errornet"

My wife and I have 2 children. A 3 year old daughter and a 8 day old son! I was woefully ignorant the first time around and simply played sheep when it came time to vaccinate my daughter. This is/was totally out of character for me and it wasn't till the H1N1 fear campaign started that I opened my eyes to the idea that this should be researched for my own edification.

I come to you with this issue. Our lifelong pediatrician (began seeing me when I was 5 years old and now our daughters care provider) has informed us that her office policy is that they do not accept patients who do not vaccinate. Before I get too far let me recap exactly what happened:

I called today to schedule my son's 2 week appointment. The lady on the phone asked if he had is Hep B shot, to which I responded, "no". (side note, at his birth 8 days ago, every nursery nurse and the pediatrician on rotation at the hospital, who happens to work in the same office as my pediatrician, gave me a hi-five for being an informed parent and stated that although they were not allowed to publicly agree with me, they did. Only one person gave me any grief to which I responded with a sarcasm laden: "I don't think he's going to be having unprotected sex or sharing dirty needles for at least a week or 2....."). Back on track: She told me that I MUST sign a form stating my consent to vaccinate my child before I'm even allowed to see our Dr. I told her that I would like to discuss our options with our Dr. before I agree to anything. She stonewalled me rudely and began to "script" me to death with: "it's our policy......."

I asked her again to help me find the rationalization in the idea that I would agree to a medical intervention treatment that, as far as she knows, I know nothing about, without at first discussing it with the educated parties involved. I gave her this scenario: "I'm your oncologist and you have cancer. Before you are ever allowed to talk to me, you must sign this form stating you WILL have chemo treatment". She did not take kindly to rational reasoning. She continued to script me so, I simply asked that she have our pediatrician call me at her earliest convenience.

Ten minutes later the same lady called back and rudely told me that she had spoken with our Dr. and that she would not even talk to me on the phone unless I signed this form. In my gut, I know this was not the case however, there is always that possibility. I told her no problem. She began to respond with her fear campaign, to which I interrupted with "let me stop you right there. Goodbye!"

Now, I have no doubt they perhaps have a policy very similar to what this "front office manager" referred too. Perhaps, she was even telling me the entire truth, albeit rudely. Being a full believer in a private business's right to do whatever they want with what's theirs, I fully support their decision to make whatever policy they wish. I simply will choose not to patronize their business. No biggie.

I'm now attempting to find a care provider that will at least discuss the data and our options. What is amusing to me is the mentality of "trust me, I'm a doctor". I laugh because they fail to realize the chasm between chemistry and their MD. I'd fully wager some very sensitive parts of my body that most doctors are unable to even pronounce the ingredients in many of these vaccinations, let alone be able to identify each compounds contributing traits etc. etc. etc. Frankly, I don't expect them too. It's not their profession. However, the frightening truth is, they believe they are educated because the CDC told them so. The disconnect between that mentality and say, their response to "do you trust the government" is drenched in irony.

I'm happy to see that autism is not the leading factor in the decision to not vaccinate for some members on this board. I feel the same. It's difficult to sift through the conspiracy theories to find the evidence. I have learned enough to know, that I don't know enough. That is the best conclusion I can arrive at regarding autism and vaccinations.

I fall on the side of, why? I'll leave it to the more educated and versed members to expound on that rationale as I've yet to find an opinion in the "why" camp that I disagree with.

All of that to get to my questions and I want to sincerely thank those who are still with me at this point!

We travel. We play hard. We get dirty, a lot (animals, hiking, 4wheeling, sports, etc. etc. etc.) Although we fully believe education is done at home, our children will attend school for what I consider the greatest social education experience available. We will, however, be augmenting HEAVILY the necessary "book" educating at home. Are any of these issues of enhanced concern for non vaccinated children?

How did you find a doctor that fell in the middle? I do not mean to offend with this next statement: as I fully support and love the fact people commit to their beliefs but: I, personally, do not want the extreme case the other way. I'm not a pill proponent at all but if my child absolutely needs an antibiotic, I do not want my child's Dr. refusing this path because of his ideology. I need a middle ground doc! I found what looked like a positive lead only to find out he was recently charged with battery for kicking the mess out of pro life protester in front of an abortion clinic............... Everyone makes mistakes but... come on.... Really? At your professional level you can't keep control of yourself? I digress...

I again thank you all very much for facilitating my supremely long post, allowing a man on a ladies forum and being caring parents as evident by the quality of information found on this forum. I look forward to your responses.


FatherOf2
post #2 of 42
Not a lot of time, so I'll just say welcome! And a couple things -

The school issue - depends on which state you are in and what types of exemptions are allowed for school attendance.

Try posting in the Finding Your Tribe section for your state/country to get leads on doctors that would fit what you are looking for. You might be better off considering a Family Practice doctor rather than a ped, since they are many times more open to non- or selectively-vaccinating and will still use more allopathic remedies when needed.
post #3 of 42
Welcome and congratulations on the birth of your son. I hope you'll stick around here...I like to see fathers looking at this issue.

I can't help with the question about the forms...it sounds like a US thing to me and my kids' peds were in Canada and now our GP is here in Australia. No one made us sign any forms stating that we needed to vaccinate our children to qualify for care.

As for finding one in the middle, I guess it starts first with asking straight up if this is going to be an issue for the doctor. When we met our current GP, it was after having phoned quite a few to sign our Conscientious Objection forms and his office said he would do that. So, he knew from the start that we would not be vaccinating. Then he discussed it with me for a few minutes (as much as you can discuss the pertinent issues with two kids rummaging through his office) and I asked him straight up, "is there going to be a problem with us receiving care?" And he said no. So, we've kept him. He disagrees with me, he wishes I would reconsider on the DT, but he's willing to look past that and see us as patients. I did recently get an antibiotic from him to treat my DD's stubborn sinus infection when all home treatments failed.

I know some members on here have either amended the form or not signed it but still somehow managed to stay on. I hope you'll hear from them.

As for travelling, playing hard, getting dirty. We've done that too. My kids are 5.5 and 2 years old. Neither have been vaxed. We've travelled overseas often. They play in the dirt all the time. I've done enough of my own reading that I am comfortable with the theoretical risks we are supposed to be taking. I'm not overly concerned with my kids just getting on with life and having fun.

Good luck!
post #4 of 42
Dad's are welcome here of course!

As for finding a doc. Just be patient, keep at it and look in circles where it is more common to not vax or delay/selective vax.

Is there a holistic mom's network meeting in your area? (Dad's can go to that too btw) http://www.holisticmoms.org/category...ocal-chapters/

Ask local Chiropractors if they know of any docs in the area that are not vax zealot's. We found our ped through our chiro - she takes her own 2 unvaxed kids there. Post in your tribes area here as well. You will find one, it may take some digging. Consider DO's or FP docs . We actually get 99% of our care form an ND, but I wanted to have a relationship with an allopathic doc in case we needed anything more.
As for your current doc. Unfortunately this is not unusual. We got "kicked out" of the last practice because I refused to sign their stupid form.

As for playing hard and dirty. You just need to look at your individual risk factors. Unless you are travelling to 3rd world countries for prolonged periods of time, I don't see any circumstance where personally the benefits of vaxing would outweigh the risks.

Good luck and I'm sure we'll be seeing more of you
post #5 of 42
If you really want to talk to the Dr. I would just show up; sometimes Drs are not aware of exactly what their staff is telling patients. Since most others in the practice appeared supportive, it may be that this person is pushing their own agenda. Or you can say that you wonder what the view of the state medical board is of blackmailing patients into signing consent to treatment without speaking to the doctor first and that you cannot give informed consent without first getting information by speaking to the doctor.

Also, if your child is a patient they cannot just cut you off. They need to tell you in writing that you/your child is being dismissed as a patient and give you time to find another doctor; to do otherwise may constitute abandonment.

Three factors must exist in order to be considered abandonment: 1) the termination must be initiated by the doctor, not the patient; 2) it must be done without giving the patient sufficient time to find another provider; and 2) there must be a need for additional care. One could argue that a newborn (for which their is a generally accepted interval of care-- X days, 2wks, 1month, 2months, 4months) has a "need" for additional care.

If you do look for a new doctor you could try a family doctor or a DO. Or you could try another Dr. in the practice.

All states except MS and WV offer medical and religious exemptions; 18 states offer philosophical exemptions for school attendance.
post #6 of 42
As to the "Why" of not vaccinating...though many of us started down the non-vaccinating path before Wakefield/Autism, I think most of us share a concern about vaccine damage. Perhaps Autism is a different "animal," but there are still numerous children who regress in speech and development after vaccination; perhaps we should call it VIMA (vaccine injury mimicking Autism).

In any case, vaccines are drugs like any other that can cause acute/chronic disease, injury and death and should be studied as such, not viewed as harmless vitamins.

Here are some questions to answer for yourself in deciding about vax.

1. Name of the disease
2. Description of the disease
3. Length of time from initial infection to end of all symptoms
4. Infectious period
5. Normal symptoms of the disease
6. Known serious consequences of the disease
7. Proportion of persons infected developing serious consequences
8. Transmission route of the disease
9. Prevalence of the disease
10. Treatments of the disease and efficacy of those treatments
11. Relevant research about the disease
12. Name of the vaccine
13. Company that makes the vaccine
14. Contents of the vaccine
14A. The significance of whether or not the vaccine is live
15. History of development of the vaccine
16. Known side-effects of the vaccine and rate of incidence of those side-effects
17. Possible side-effects not yet acknowledged by the vaccine maker
18. Relevant research into the vaccine
19. How effective is the vaccine at preventing the disease?
20.What is the vaccine meant to do? (Many vaccines are not meant to prevent infection or transmission).
21.Number of cases reported each year.
22.Number of deaths reported each year from the vaccine and natural disease.

Here are some sources to help you out:

Vaccines: The Risks, The Benefits, The Choices 1/18DVD, By Sherri J. TENPENNY



http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html (download the current issue)
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...k-chapters.htm
http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40451107552&q=
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...87981735&hl=en
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ses&deaths.pdf

Health Sentinel Graphs

WHO GRAPH

Vaccine Injury Table


Beyond Conformity Resources Page
Do you have a quick-fire summary?

Inside Vaccines
post #7 of 42
Is there a specific reason why you want a pediatrician? A family practice doctor is less likely to badger you about vaccination schedules. If you are content with the services a family doctor can provide, as opposed to a pediatrician, that might be a simple route to examine.

If you have an established pediatrician (and you do), I would simply go to the appointment and then, while there, tell the nurse that you won't be doing any vaccines today. I would not discuss the reasons why with anyone except the doctor, and then only if the doctor initiates a conversation. The pediatrician we see has a pro-vax, pro-schedule policy; however, we've discussed with her the reasons why we won't be vaxing our children, and she is fine with us remaining with the clinic. IME it is the staff -- nurses, office managers -- who oversee the children's files and will want to ensure the shots are updated. I would go directly to the physician, not the staff. I do think that many practices don't want parents who state upfront, "We won't vaccinate," because, after all, these are doctors who sincerely believe it to be in the best interest of their clients to encourage vaccinations. It's like DADT for pediatric offices.

Another resource would be to find your local API group -- Attachment Parenting International -- you can go to their website and then find your local group. Many of them have no-vax/delayed vax doctors listed as part of their bulletin board.

As for school, most states have exemptions. They vary from state to state. Here, the law is quite clear -- children must provide proof of vaccination or provide a state exemption -- before enrolling in kinder. Our exemptions are good for 2 years, and we retain notarized copies in triplicate; one for the school, one for home, and one "extra" in case the school loses their copy. (This has never happened to us -- we've encountered no problems at all -- but I have heard that other regions are more prickly about accepting exemptions and may "misplace" them)


Good luck with everything!
post #8 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatherOf2 View Post
We travel. We play hard. We get dirty, a lot (animals, hiking, 4wheeling, sports, etc. etc. etc.) Although we fully believe education is done at home, our children will attend school for what I consider the greatest social education experience available. We will, however, be augmenting HEAVILY the necessary "book" educating at home. Are any of these issues of enhanced concern for non vaccinated children?

It wouldn't be of concern to me. I've gotten a lot of experience dealing with illness in the past few years and by lurking on the Health & Healing board, and reading older posts here in Vaccinations, I've found there are so many ways to support the kids, and myself, through illnesses. Far, far more than I ever conceived of, say, 5 years ago when my daughter was a toddler. For most illnesses that I'm likely to encounter in the US, serious complications are not the norm--so my goal is to increase the likelihood that the kids and I end up with the most typical outcome.

Old posts by Momtezuma Tuatara were also very helpful--she's no longer around, but old posts are Searchable.

As a bonus, figuring out things that help _your_ kids get through illness unscathed helps with all the regular illnesses out there too, not just the vaccine-available ones. Since your kids are different than mine, you'll probably find a slightly different combo of things that work best for your family, yk?


How did you find a doctor that fell in the middle? I do not mean to offend with this next statement: as I fully support and love the fact people commit to their beliefs but: I, personally, do not want the extreme case the other way. I'm not a pill proponent at all but if my child absolutely needs an antibiotic, I do not want my child's Dr. refusing this path because of his ideology. I need a middle ground doc! I found what looked like a positive lead only to find out he was recently charged with battery for kicking the mess out of pro life protester in front of an abortion clinic............... Everyone makes mistakes but... come on.... Really? At your professional level you can't keep control of yourself? I digress...

I again thank you all very much for facilitating my supremely long post, allowing a man on a ladies forum and being caring parents as evident by the quality of information found on this forum. I look forward to your responses.


FatherOf2
re: finding doctors, I've never actually found an MD who didn't prescribe drugs. We use several types of health care providers for different health needs--once I accepted the limitations of each type of health care provider, it became much easier to decide which I wanted for each situation.

Finding Your Tribe can help with local docs/other HCPs. We used to have a family practitioner, she had a normal medical practice, just didn't care if we vaccinated. Now we actually have a pediatrician, I was surprised but there's a local one who, again, runs a mainstream practice, who respects that it's my responsibility to make health care choices for my kids.

They help for any referrals I need and I like having one in case either of the kids gets a serious injury.

A chiropractor or a DO who does cranial-sacral is much more useful, to us, in staying healthy. Great thing for a little baby, a few visits to a cranial-sacral person.

Also, there's a dads forum, I think in the Parenting sub-section... not many other dads around, but I can think of a few who are regulars on the board, if you want to stick around.

And to MDC. It's a good place.
post #9 of 42
Go to the Finding Your Tribe here on Mothering and you will find like minded people in your geographical area. Much of what you do will depend on the law in your neck of the woods.

I suggest that you become profoundly familiar with the law as it pertains to vaccines, health, and schools and be ready for whatever comes your way, especially for ER and urgent care visits.

I suggest that you find a naturopath, chiropractor, or family practice that will lay off the vaccine propaganda and leave you be.
post #10 of 42
Welcome to the forum! We're happy to have you, even if the website is named "Mothering."

I agree with the others and say go right to your pediatrician himself and discuss it with him and ignore the annoying lady at the front desk. If he still refuses to see your child for being unvaccinated, then here is my suggestion:

Regarding finding a doctor in the middle, before we had our son, we set up free consultations to talk to pediatricians in our area. My main objective to do that was to get their views on vaccines. During our consultation, I asked all kinds of questions regarding vaccines and the doctors answered them in the way they should be answered: "It is the parent's choice." Even though my doctor indicates he does not agree with our choice, he still respects our decision because he knows the controversy out there around vaccines. That's a good doctor (he is not a naturopath either so they do exist). You want to stay away from those doctors who refuse to see children who are not vaccinated and those doctors who make you feel you are making a huge mistake by not vaccinating. Those doctors either obviously have not done their research on vaccines or are totally in it for the money (a lot of doctors get kickbacks with their vaccine rates).

Maybe you should start searching for doctors near you and see if you can get a free consultation with a few of them so you can find out where they stand. That way, you can weed out the bad ones and stick with the doctor who will respect your decision.
post #11 of 42
Quote:
If you really want to talk to the Dr. I would just show up; sometimes Drs are not aware of exactly what their staff is telling patients. Since most others in the practice appeared supportive, it may be that this person is pushing their own agenda. Or you can say that you wonder what the view of the state medical board is of blackmailing patients into signing consent to treatment without speaking to the doctor first and that you cannot give informed consent without first getting information by speaking to the doctor.


Since the Dr has been your Dr since you were a child, I would call, state you want a consultation and say nothing more to the office staff. State clearly you wish to talk only to the Dr. regarding a personal medical matter- a private matter. You are a patient and you deserve to speak to the Dr. - state clearly how the "office" staff spoke to you and go from there. I would do this prior to looking for another Dr.
post #12 of 42
Thread Starter 
Thank you everyone for all the suggestions.

Update: We spoke with our pediatrician at her house this evening, for an hour. She had no idea what I was referring to when I explained the incident with the front office manager.

I explained that we simply were looking for a dialogue concerning vaccinations. I explained to her the information I was basing my concerns on and she commented many times that she was unaware such things existed. She was very open to the data but periodically maintained the "company line". This is expected and I took no offense to it.

She has a child that suffers from an immune deficiency, who was vaccinated, so she carries somewhat of an emotional attachment to the issue but was fully aware of that issue being a conflict. She was honest about balancing professional opinion and motherly instinct. We appreciated this.

The facts: She explained she is bound, by the policy of the office she works for, that all children must be vaccinated according to APA guidelines. She told me, she has at least a minimal amount of discretion in the scheduling aspect of the vaccinations but that eventually, our son would have to be vaccinated or she would be forced, by her office, to dismiss him as a patient.

I told her I completely understood her situation and would respect it. She said she wasn't clear on what sort of time frame was appropriate but that she would work with us by either spreading out his shots or, if we decide entirely against it (which is most likely what will happen) that she will see him as long as she possibly can. We were greatly appreciative for her candor, openness and willingness to respect our decisions.

Her base is one of fear, like many of the Dr. stories I've read on this forum. However, she did ask to keep the information I had brought with me so that she may read through it. I saw this as a tremendously positive step.

We are moving to another state later this year so having to find an extremely temporary care provider on such short notice was stressing us out a bit. We feel tonight worked out almost perfect and are satisfied, for now, with the arrangement.

For those of you that my story resonates with, who are reading this at some point in the future: My case is unique in the respect that we have a personal relationship with our care provider including home and cell numbers that are otherwise unlisted. She is doing us a favor that bears professional exposure for her. This is not proof of concept or meant to be construed as an accurate representation of the norm. We are very lucky.

Thank you again everyone for your input and guidance. I'll update if there is cause.
post #13 of 42
Quote:
she would be forced, by her office, to dismiss him as a patient.
since you are only going to be in the state a short time longer- is she willing to see you outside of the office? I certainly would ask-many do this
post #14 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
since you are only going to be in the state a short time longer- is she willing to see you outside of the office? I certainly would ask-many do this
Good question. I will ask.

Calling the office back, to schedule his appointment, is going to be an interesting experience......

One of the things she mentioned, without me alluding to this particular issue, is that none of their vaccines contain any mercury/thimerosal.

What is the populace opinion of that variable in regards to the safety of vaccinations? I'm fully aware it makes the process no more necessary, just curious what the science says about it's contributing factor to the safety argument.

ETA: I was digging through all the crap they give you at the hospital as you attempt to escape that hell and found a pamphlet from the pediatricians office. In the back is their vaccine policy. Again, I full support their right to do whatever they want but from a purely observational point of view.... Wow, is it bad. Thought some of you would get a kick out of it.

*Removed Policy Statement by request*

I simply do not have the energy to enumerate the sheer magnitude of extreme failures in this piece. What I do plan on doing however, is highlighting the parts encouraging parents to discuss vaccines with their care provider as well as other pertinent parts of their policy that "front office manager" seems unable to grasp. I will submit it, with a copy of "How to win friends and influence people". Anyone wager a guess on how well this adventure will turn out?!
post #15 of 42
Mercury, in my opinion, is not the only concern. The multitude of other chemicals/toxins in vaccines such as aluminum, formaldehyde, etc., can cause enough damage in themselves without the use of mercury. When such toxins are accumulated, it takes a toll on the neurological system. I never understood why vaccines were ever considered safe to begin with. The common sense of it all clearly indicates it is not because how could any kind of toxin injected directly into the body be safe??? Even if it is in small doses, it is still toxic and unnatural.
post #16 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatherOf2 View Post
Good question. I will ask.

Calling the office back, to schedule his appointment, is going to be an interesting experience......

One of the things she mentioned, without me alluding to this particular issue, is that none of their vaccines contain any mercury/thimerosal.

What is the populace opinion of that variable in regards to the safety of vaccinations? I'm fully aware it makes the process no more necessary, just curious what the science says about it's contributing factor to the safety argument.

ETA: I was digging through all the crap they give you at the hospital as you attempt to escape that hell and found a pamphlet from the pediatricians office. In the back is their vaccine policy. Again, I full support their right to do whatever they want but from a purely observational point of view.... Wow, is it bad. Thought some of you would get a kick out of it.



I simply do not have the energy to enumerate the sheer magnitude of extreme failures in this piece. What I do plan on doing however, is highlighting the parts encouraging parents to discuss vaccines with their care provider as well as other pertinent parts of their policy that "front office manager" seems unable to grasp. I will submit it, with a copy of "How to win friends and influence people". Anyone wager a guess on how well this adventure will turn out?!

Wow...there are no words to describe that piece of drivel!! I can't believe they actually put that bit about smallpox in there. I guess they do not know their history. The smallpox vaccine caused far more cases of smallpox then it ever prevented. The regions with the highest vaccine compliance for smallpox had the worse epidemics in history. When the smallpox vaccine was no longer compulsory, smallpox cases and resulting deaths started to decline. Go figure!

As for mercury. First of all your ped is most likely wrong. I would wager a fair amount of coin that at least 1 of the routine pediatric shots she gives in her office have trace amounts of thimerosal. The reality of "trace" is who knows how much is in there, because nobody is actually checking.
here is a link to the package inserts for most licensed vaccines. http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm

if you want a wonderful read about thimerosal pick up "Evidence of Harm" by David Kirby. It is chock full of references and scientific data.

Personally thimerosal is just one of the ingredients I object to.
How about formaldehyde, aluminum, antibiotics, cow, human, and other animal (canary, guinea pig tissue/DNA) and a host of others. The DNA stuff is quite frankly the creepiest for me. Google epigenetics and read how we are changing our DNA for ourselves and generations to come....scary stuff IMO.

The things used in the manufacturing of the vaccines such as detergents and things that "purify" and "preserve" cause cell death. (google MAC or membrane attack complex), promote tumor growth and so forth.

What I find so amusing (aside from that silly letter ) is that the scientific information that these ingredients are harmful is out there for anyone who digs for it. You would think that the people reccomending the product the most (the docs) would have some interest in the safety of the product they are pushing and would not just take someone else's word for it. It really is beyond me. I know moeny and polictics and corruption all play a huge part on a larger higher level, but I think the peds such as yours truly believe that the vaccines are safe. The blind faith that people put in doctors is beyond me. I really just don't get it!!!! People spend more time researching buying a new car or a new appliance than they do something they are putting in their body.

I have a friend who researched car seats like crazy when she had her baby.; Spend HOURS and HOURS pouring over reviews abd consumer reports and angsting about whoch was was the safest, yet when it came time to vax, she didn't question anything at all. SIGH.

I hope you stick around here and learn all you can
post #17 of 42
While my Peds office also assures that none of their vaccines have thimerosol in them, I asked, do they also NOT have Fermaldihide, mokey brain cells, chicken embryo cells, aborted fetal cells..............The list goes on of crap I dont want to inject into my kids.

I went through the almost the same thing as OP, however, my former Ped wasnt nearly as nice about it all, and also took the,"Im a doctor, therefore I know better then you" road.

To find a new ped, I just started calling around in my area, asking if the practise had a policy about seeing patients who decided to "excersise their RIGHT" not to vax. (I worded it Just like that too. )

The one I found is AWSOME!!!!! Very down to earth, commends me for being an INFORMED parent, and not just doing what im told. SHe says she wishes more parents would take such a proactive roll in their kids health, but she jokes she may then be out of a job.

So honestly, I would start calling around, you just never know!

ETA OH, and let us not forget what CAUSED a great number of smallpox outbreaks in the first place.
post #18 of 42
Thanks for your story and your input so far, Fatherof2. I'm impressed by the logic with which you are approaching this. Your family is lucky to have you watching out for them. Please stay and let us know what else you find out. You are definitely here! It's not just for moms!

And stay and be encouraged here. Sometimes it's just nice to know there are others following the same path you are choosing.
post #19 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimPM View Post
Thanks for your story and your input so far, Fatherof2. I'm impressed by the logic with which you are approaching this. Your family is lucky to have you watching out for them. Please stay and let us know what else you find out. You are definitely here! It's not just for moms!

And stay and be encouraged here. Sometimes it's just nice to know there are others following the same path you are choosing.
Thank you. This place is a great resource.

I do not wish to start a new thread and because this is keeping in line with my personal quest for information: I'll state my next question/observation here.

The Math

Looking through the "resource" thread I was very interested in the CDC links. Particularly the one listing the reported cases of commonly vaccinated diseases.

How do you effectively retort the: "Of course the numbers are low, the majority of people vaccinate" line of thinking.

As my wife and I continue to hash out our battle plans we realize that it's coming to a mathematical statistical risk/benefit calculation.

The chances of contracting the diseases as an non vaccinated person.

compared to:

The chances of contracting the diseases as a vaccinated person.

compared to:

The chances of serious harm as a result of contracting these diseases as a non vaccinated person.

Compared to:

The chances of serious harm as a result of contracting these diseases as a vaccinated person.

all compared to:

The risks of the vaccination itself.

Although the vaccinate crowd religiously points to some pretty poor excuses for scientific evidence as their justification, what they actually do have on their side is a quite a large sampling size of data that does point to not only the large decrease of these diseases over time but also, at least from what I can find, a low number of truly relate-able health issues connected to the vaccines.

NOW, let me clarify the obvious so that we are clear that I'm aware of it: The large sampling size is of course the % of people that have been vaccinated since the number of diseases fell. People don't always report and things change constantly. Hygiene, I believe, has played a massive role in this decline as well. I'm aware the CDC believes less than 10% of vaccine related complications are reported. I'm also aware that BECAUSE a child is vaccinated, the Dr. is much less likely to EVER consider complications or disease contractions as related to the vaccine. I say this because these were the exact works our pediatrician used when talking to us: "If your son is unvaccinated and you call me saying he's running a temp etc. I'm going to want to test for meningitis immediately but if he's vaccinated against it, I will never even consider that as a possibility at first". GEESH! I'm not sure she knew what she actually said but knowing the testing procedure for meningitis, she'd have a hard time convincing us it was necessary without a great deal more evidence than a fever!

What is supremely maddening is the lack of real evidence for either camp. Both sides play a fear campaign of similar step. However, the vaccinate crowd can never come up with any other reason than "look at these studies". As we know, some of those studies lack the very basic scientific model we were all taught in 7th grade science class! I've actually done more FOR the vaccinate campaign through my research than they ever have and I'm leaning AGAINST vaccination!!! This is simply maddening! The unvaccinated side at least carries with it concerns and questions backed by the vaccinate crowd's lack and condition of evidence! In the absence of proof... what do we have?!

Neither side can definitively say, "we are right". Delving in to that idea a little more, the vaccinate side is backed by $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and power. One would think that if there were some strong evidence supporting the use of vaccines, they would be tripping over themselves, no matter the cost, to get that data verified, beyond reproach, and made public. But, they don't..... This is disconcerting but remains circumstantial. I don't expect the non vaccinate crowd to prove anything. Most of you here are saying, PROVE IT! No one can logically argue with this sentiment. However, as I stated above, even though it's not brought up often, the vaccinate crowd does have some convincing data for their cause. It strikes me as odd they are not parading this information.

So, as we continue to ponder, research and debate; the conclusion we're rapidly arriving at is, it's a mathematical calculation.

Both sides are simply wrought with ignorance in far too many areas. If my dr. was the only resource for information, even though she is pro vaccinate, I would not. She simply was a terrible spokesperson for the campaign. Regarding the non vaccinate crowd, I read and hear: "I just don't think fetal human tissue should be injected in the my child". WELL SHIT! On the surface, ME NEITHER!!! Being ignorant on the subject it simply sounds scary, gross, unnecessary etc. However, if someone could point to empirical evidence gained through data by way of good science that states it's effectiveness in preventing, curing etc. some major issue then, I'm open to listen! It simply confounds me no one has done this yet. We're standing here yelling "CONVINCE ME, PLEASE!" and no one can!

Concerning the "it's not natural approach": I'm right there with the idea of engaging in as much natural methods as possible. I'm not a pill fan whatsoever. I feel process foods are the biggest danger to humans. etc. However, like anything, the extreme either way is probably not the best course. Part of the human greatness is innovation and advancement. Of course, too much too fast can easily be counter productive and even catastrophic but to resist the idea that this particular pill could save your child's life, because it's "not natural", is an unhealthy resistance to human innovation. Now, the inverse of this is just as, if not more, dangerous. "my son has a cough" "Here, take cure-all-icillin".... Just stupid. There must be balance.

Ultimately, I'm effective at debating both sides in my head. On one hand, the science that is pointed to, from the vaccinate crowd, is horrible yet, there is some evidence, in the wild,that makes a decent case (even though THAT is not what they point too). My issue with this seemingly pro-evidence is I'm simply not smart enough to discern if it's actually relevant. On-the-other-hand, the non-vaccinate crowd is completely correct in saying, "you have not proven it to me yet!" The blame falls squarely on the vaccinate crowd. They came to market with something that wasn't there before. They said it's going to be awesome. Well, it's their duty to prove it, and they've failed tremendously. I feel like I want to believe that vaccines are safe and effective with little risk but the evidence is simply not there. I'm an evidence motivated person who successfully limits emotion, from my decision making process, most of the time but, I'm struggling with this one.

Tough subject.
post #20 of 42
Your post was well written and I understand the difficulty of deciding what to do when comparing the vaccinated argument versus the non-vaccinated argument. I remember being in your shoes when my son was born until one day something just clicked for me and I decided to not do any vaccines at all. That may happen for you one day too where you'll just "find" the answer within your heart. After my research (mostly with the book by Dr. Sears and Dr. Tenpenny), I decided the risks of the vaccines heavily outweight the benefits. Both those books lay out the facts with data behind it.

I'm just going to give my thoughts/views/opinions on this:

The vaccinated argument, in my opinion, is not strong at all as you mentioned. Their "studies" may show that vaccines have helped and cause no harm, but that of course is not the truth. Their numbers are skewed. Some diseases were well on the decline and were dying out even before vaccines were ever introduced. Also, with their so-called "studies" showing there were little to no health issues after giving a vaccine...well...I just want to laugh in their face on that one. They have not done any real comparable studies at all. All of the studies have been conducted with provaccine mentality.

Regarding the natural aspect of it, the chemicals and adjuvants in vaccines are poisonous to the body, especially tiny little babies. I understand your thought of human innovation but do we really need to inject all of this awful crap over and over again into our children to fight off diseases such as chicken pox????? It's not the unnatural part of vaccines that bothers me; it's the unsafe part of vaccines that's the problem. There is no proof out there indicating that they are safe. Vaccines are a money maker. It all starts to make sense now why the CDC wants to force so many vaccines on everyone and even start to make up new ones such as the H1N1. Soon, there will be a vaccine for a sore throat! Did you hear of all of the teen girls who died from the Gardasil vaccine? How could that vaccine be proven to be safe if there are people dying from it? (Sorry, I get really passionate about this subject and I start to get p*d off when I talk about it.)

Natural immunity is what was intended for us which is why we have an immune system to begin with. My belief is that vaccines weaken the immune systems by forcing the viruses (among other crap) upon our bodies when there is a small chance of contracting the virus in the first place. The idea of a vaccine is to bypass our natural immune system and "surprise" our body with the virus so our bodies react double time to it. Does that seem normal? Why inject ourselves with viruses and have our bodies going through hell to fight the infection when we may never get the disease to begin with?? It is insane how you take a baby to the doctor for the first time when they are 2 months old and there comes 5 needles their way. It's disturbing that the kids don't even have a chance to develop naturally on their own without medical intervention knocking them down over and over again. It seems like medical abuse to me. Let the kids at least grow a bit before you jab them left and right. What a way to be welcomed into the world.

The other disturbing fact among all of this are the numerous, careless recalls on vaccines. I mentioned this in another post. There are too many times where a vaccine is recalled after it has been distributed to thousands/millions. Big pharma is basically like "Oops, sorry, that vaccine is contaminated so we have to take it back." Well, you can't take that back from the thousands/millions that have already gotten that vaccine. The pharameutical companies are protected from liability of damages from vaccines. That should tell us something right there. The latest recall (well, actually, they didn't even recall this one) is on the rotavirus vaccine where it was contaminated with pig virus which can be detrimental to humans, yet, the FDA says, "It's fine." To me, that's proof enough that I don't want my son getting any of that.

Again, these are my feelings on this topic after my research and using common sense to tell me that there is nothing healthy about the vaccine schedule out there right now, and that the schedule is only going to continue to grow and grow.
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