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Need non-inflammatory circ information - Page 2

post #21 of 39
Thread Starter 
Thank you all again. To again clarify, while I realize it is an emotionally charged issue (and I see why), anything perceived as slanted or "activist" (his words) by my husband will be disregarded. Being a trained scientist, he will be more willing to weigh the merits of seemingly unbiased information. I guess this goes to what PlainandTall mentioned regarding knowing my audience.

And PlainandTall, you bring to light some great points about the conversation itself. Some of them I have considered, some I have not. So thanks to you.
post #22 of 39
Then you need to be careful that you don't get bogged down in medical minutiae. The fact is, he will be born with it, like every other male; it is very much a functional body part; it is not diseased; therefore there is no reason to remove it.
post #23 of 39
Your best way to approach this might be to say - You are asking to have surgery preformed on your infant son. You need to prove a medical need.

The default is to leave him as he came. If your DH wants to do something else, let him find facts to prove that it's necessary.
post #24 of 39
http://www.infocirc.org/uti2.htm - good graphics for uti's
post #25 of 39
I think it's helpful to keep in mind Margaret Mead's saying to the effect of "if a fish were an anthropologist, the last thing it would discover would be water."

In this situation, circumcision is so much a part of our culture that we accept it as normal, harmless at worst and beneficial at best. Anti-circumcision information that lays out its true horrors can be dismissed as "biased" because we're so used to thinking of the pros of circumcision and how ordinary it is.

Compare and contrast to female genital cutting and the cultural aspects of this debate come into focus. Where on earth could you find "non-biased" information on female circumcision, laying out the pros and cons in a rational, scientific, non-emotional way? You can't - because the subject is taboo. It is culturally accepted in the West that female genital cutting is universally evil. (In countries where it is the norm, on the other hand, the exact same rationales for male circumcision are trotted out: "it's cleaner," "men prefer it," "it's healthier.")

So it's considered perfectly normal to enroll thousands of men in trials to determine the efficacy of circumcision to prevent HIV infection, but the one study presented at a World AIDS Conference demonstrating that, all other factors being equal, female circumcision is associated with a much lower risk of HIV infection went absolutely nowhere. Not a single scientist is signing up intact women to get circumcised to see what would happen to HIV infection rates in intact vs. cut women -- because it is simply accepted that female genitals are harmed by cutting, whereas male genitals are improved by cutting.

That's not scientific. That's not rational. That's culture all the way.

Scientists are just as susceptible to cultural bias as anyone else. The problem comes when they can't or won't see that they are filtering information through the lenses of cultural bias.

To understand how circumcision came to be normalized and rationalized through so-called "scientific" means, it's really important to look at the history of circumcision in the 19th and 20th centuries. You simply cannot understand how it came to be acceptable to cut off large chunks of newborn baby boys' genitals in a medical setting until you look at the history of medical doctors rationalizing circumcision for what we can now see as completely ludicrous (and often culturally based) reasons.

These are two sites to start learning about the history of circumcision:

http://www.icgi.org/information/medicalization/

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/

And a particularly good book is:

http://amzn.to/cUlAXW
post #26 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda_Reyasmom View Post
http://circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/

Watch the video. Neither of you will have any doubts. There's a reason they don't let parents in that room.
OMG! That was one of the most disturbing things I have ever watched.
post #27 of 39

the benefit of being Intact

Maybe you should also make an effort to research specifically the function of the foreskin, the benefit of the intact penis, too. I think knowing about the actual procedure of circumcision is important, but knowing why the foreskin is there and what role it plays throughout life and developmental stages is extremely important. Unfortunately I dont have any specific links off hand (and there are many), maybe somebody else can suggest some...
I'll post again if I find some good ones.
post #28 of 39
I really like this article for Dads.

http://www.newparent.com/baby/a-dads...-circumcision/

The Penn & Teller episode of "Bullsh!t" is excellent, and FUNNY! It's totally nonconfrontational and the humor makes it a lot easier to watch.

That being said.... circumcision is an emotional topic. Those of us who have taken the time to research it become more and more emotional every day. Anyone who decides to go forward with a circumcision should be required to watch a video of one beforehand, so they understand exactly what they're signing up for.

Babies DIE because of circumcision. They suffer intense complications, including penile adhesions, amputations, and bleeding. They lose a part of themselves without their consent. It's hard to discuss those things without being emotional.
post #29 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
Then you need to be careful that you don't get bogged down in medical minutiae. The fact is, he will be born with it, like every other male; it is very much a functional body part; it is not diseased; therefore there is no reason to remove it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyrestorm View Post
Your best way to approach this might be to say - You are asking to have surgery preformed on your infant son. You need to prove a medical need.

The default is to leave him as he came. If your DH wants to do something else, let him find facts to prove that it's necessary.
Both of these express where I am right now. It's illogical at best and cruel further down the spectrum. I just want to be able to respectfully challenge DH's assumptions without bullying or manipulating him. So thanks again for all of your information.

Quirky--your posts are so well thought out and clearly show your passion and knowledge about the subject. I too think the history is important; even quick timelines on the evolution of the practice in other articles are eye opening! Thanks to you again!
post #30 of 39
No medical organization in the world recommends routine neonatal circumcision for medical reasons. Your husband can read the circumcision position statements of all the relevant organizations here:
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

And key recommendation excerpts from them here:
http://www.coloradonocirc.org/files/...Statements.pdf

Beware not to get entangled in trying to argue through each medical rationale for circumcision. There are literally thousands of articles out there, some seeming to support the value of circumcision, others showing no medical value. It is not just a question that there might not be some medical benefit to circumcision, but the fact that there are also risks, harms, and losses to be weighed, that there are other less invasive ways to prevent or treat whatever diseases one is concerned about, and most medical rationales relate to disease risk well after the newborn period. Circumcision is neither necessary nor guaranteed to prevent anything, so the ethical thing to do is let the boy make his own decisions when he's old enough to maturely weigh the pros and cons for himself.

The following are two thorough, well-documented "genital integrity position statements". They are from two organizations opposed to medically unnecessary genital alteration of minors, but are evidence-based and professional in their presentation, and exhaustively referenced. They go far beyond the typical circumcision position statements of the American Academy of Pediatrics, etc. in that they give full explanations about what the foreskin is and how it functions, a full explanation of the risks and complications (not only physical, but sexual and psychologicl), and include a full analysis of the ethical implications.

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...yStatement.pdf
http://www.icgi.org/Downloads/ICGIoverview.pdf

The fact that the mainstream medical organizations leave out this information is an indication of the institutional bias toward circumcision that exists in our culture. There is a bias toward circumcision being good, normal, and acceptable in our culture, and this tends to skew everything from medical position statements to parenting magazine articles toward that direction. Much less often talked about is the value and normalcy of having a foreskin, and the ethical issues associated with cutting normal, healthy body parts off of non-consenting minors. Yet when these very relevant topics are brought to light, all of a sudden the message is labelled as "biased and inflammatory." Something worth considering when you are looking for "unbiased" information.

Interestingly, the Dutch Royal Medical Organization has just put out its first statement on non-therapeutic male circumcision. Coming from a culture that has never practiced routine newborn circumcision, they know the foreskin is normal and valuable, and they are able to see circumcision for what it is and call a spade a spade. The contrast with the AAP's wishy washy "whatever the parents want" approach is dramatic.

http://www.circumstitions.com/Docs/KNMG-policy.pdf

Gillian
post #31 of 39
Thread Starter 
Thanks Gillian! Those look like very valuable resources. I appreciate it!
post #32 of 39
There are also the info packs from peaceful parenting. You can order one from http://www.drmomma.org/2010/01/are-y...-informed.html
post #33 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkBunch View Post
Thank you all again. To again clarify, while I realize it is an emotionally charged issue (and I see why), anything perceived as slanted or "activist" (his words) by my husband will be disregarded. Being a trained scientist, he will be more willing to weigh the merits of seemingly unbiased information. I guess this goes to what PlainandTall mentioned regarding knowing my audience.

And PlainandTall, you bring to light some great points about the conversation itself. Some of them I have considered, some I have not. So thanks to you.
As a trained scientist I find this the best resource:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...yStatement.pdf

It was written by doctors, carefully reviews the varous arguemnts, does a good job of getting at the legal and ethical issues, and has references so he can dig deeper if he wants.

Regards
post #34 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
Wow, I had no idea that it was once recommended to circumcise to cure epilepsy. It sure didn't work on my DP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda_Reyasmom View Post
http://circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/

Watch the video. Neither of you will have any doubts. There's a reason they don't let parents in that room.
OMG, why did I watch that? I didn't need to, I'm already convinced that circing is wrong...as soon as I heard that baby cry I burst into tears and had to shut the video off.
post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by shishkeberry View Post
OMG, why did I watch that? I didn't need to, I'm already convinced that circing is wrong...as soon as I heard that baby cry I burst into tears and had to shut the video off.
I know I thought the same thing! That video seems like the most unbiased account of why a circ isn't needed! You can intellectualize all you want but after you see that...if you can still put an infant through a circ...well, i just have no words.
post #36 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmiss'mama View Post
OMG! That was one of the most disturbing things I have ever watched.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shishkeberry View Post
Wow, I had no idea that it was once recommended to circumcise to cure epilepsy. It sure didn't work on my DP


OMG, why did I watch that? I didn't need to, I'm already convinced that circing is wrong...as soon as I heard that baby cry I burst into tears and had to shut the video off.
I am sooooo sorry.. Seriously, it's traumatic. I watched one video 11 years again and haven't done it since then. (I haven't even seen the one on that link.)
post #37 of 39
http://children.webmd.com/tc/circumc...topic-overview

I like this because the url is not an anti-circ website or a natural parenting website. The "why is it done" section clearly states circumcision is done for "cultural reasons".

The article does support parental choice but is subtlety discouraging:

Your son's values
Circumcision is not just done in newborns. Keep in mind that your son can decide on his own later in life if he wants a circumcised penis.

Circumcision and STDs
Some studies in other countries have shown that circumcised men are a little less likely than men who have not been circumcised to get a sexually transmitted disease (STD), including HIV.7, 8 But circumcision should not be done solely to prevent STDs or HIV.

Any man, especially if he has high-risk sex, can get STDs or HIV. The best way to prevent STDs is to teach people about risk factors and the importance of avoiding high-risk sex.2, 8

post #38 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda_Reyasmom View Post
I am sooooo sorry.. Seriously, it's traumatic. I watched one video 11 years again and haven't done it since then. (I haven't even seen the one on that link.)
It's ok! The truth is hard some times...that's why they say innocence is bliss.
post #39 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda_Reyasmom View Post
I am sooooo sorry.. Seriously, it's traumatic. I watched one video 11 years again and haven't done it since then. (I haven't even seen the one on that link.)
It's ok I knew going into it that it would be bad. I just didn't think I'd burst into tears over it.
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