advice on going back to a nap with a two year old

[lisavark]

So my DD, 27 months now, has never slept all night. Last night, for the first time, she slept 7 hours straight. That's the longest she's EVER slept at a stretch. I've been reading Sleepless in America (again, sigh), and I realized that I'd never really given a super-early bedtime a decent shot--I've tried it once, and DD is always awake half the night afterwards, so the next night I go back to a later bedtime. Anyway, I decided to give a 6:00 pm sleep time a shot for a week.

I should mention that until she quit napping around 18 months, she NEVER went to bed earlier than 10. Usually she wouldn't sleep till 11. I frequently tried bedtime as early as 5:00 pm, but she would lie there nursing for 3 or 4 hours and finally fall asleep at 11. That's how she's always been, since the day she was born. When she quit napping, all of a sudden she started going to bed at 7:30 or 8--heaven! But she still doesn't sleep all night, not even close. And she's really, really tired in the late afternoon--I have to fight to keep her awake. So I think she needs a nap, but I also NEED her to go to sleep before 11!

So the first night of a 6:00 bedtime, she was up half the night (from 1 am to 3 am nursing, and then from 3 am to 5 am crying with DH because I couldn't take it anymore. She finally fell asleep at 5). But last night she woke at 6:30, 7:30, and 8:30, and then she STAYED ASLEEP until around 2:30 or 3--definitely the longest stretch she's ever had. (Shame I wasn't in bed for it! I will definitely be going to sleep at 9 tonight!) Then she nursed and slept another long stretch, until 7:30 when she woke for the day. Which is WAY more sleep than she usually gets in a 24-hour period--almost 14 hours. Awesome!

Today I decided to do the same thing (obviously!), but on our way home from our walk she fell asleep in the stroller for about 5 minutes. This was at 4:30. Usually if she sleeps AT ALL--even 2 minutes--she will then be awake until 11. But I woke her and got her home and did our usual routine, and sure enough, she fell asleep at 5:45. YES!

But...I'd really like to get her napping again. I know she needs a nap, and we always have a siesta--we lie in bed and nurse for at least an hour at 1 pm. Today she was starting to fall asleep at 2, but I didn't let her because I didn't want to deal with the late night. I could try getting her nap earlier, but the reason I gave up on naps was because I was regularly lying down and nursing her for 2 hours and she was not falling asleep. Today she wanted to nurse at 10:30, and I lay down with her and nursed her (she seemed to not feel well) from 10:30 till 12:00, but she didn't fall asleep. So I doubt an earlier naptime would fly. But if she naps at 2:00, I'm positive she'd be up late at night.

My plan right now is to get her really set on this schedule of sleeping 6 pm to 7:30 am (if I can make it work!) and keep a really strict routine. We'll still have rest time in the afternoons, but no nap. And then maybe, maybe, I can think about reintroducing a nap and making bedtime 8 pm instead, with the exact same routine? I'm scared though. Every time she takes a nap, her schedule is messed up for at least a week and she gets severely sleep deprived. She stays up till 11 and then wakes up at 8 or 9 and then is exhausted and naps again...etc. etc. etc. It's miserable when she naps. On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of her being exhausted all afternoon either, even if it does mean she gets way more sleep total.

Suggestions?

[kalamos23]

I'm going to be watching this thread because DD is the same way. The only thing that I have gotten to work regarding naps and getting her down at a semi decent hour (which in our case is still 9pm+ unfortunately) is to let her nap for no more than 20-30 minutes if she is obviously tired and falls asleep any later than 3pm. If she gets any more sleep past 2, she will be up to all hours. However, if she sleeps an hour at 1, I can still get her into bed by 930. Seeing as you are trying to get your DD into bed by 6ish, I would do her cutoff for naps more than 20 minutes long at 1ish (and not let her nap at all past 4ish).

This sleeping business is a weird thing.

[sept15lija]

I find my DS really needs a nap (he's 28 months). We tried getting rid of it so we could put him to bed earlier (he was going to bed around 9:30) and it worked in terms of him going to bed earlier, around 7 or so, and he slept all night. But he was exhausted and SO cranky. He totally needs it...so we reintroduced it and he goes down for a nap about five hours after he wakes up. He's usually up by 7am, so down by 12. Also we were putting him down for a nap too late before, sometimes by 1pm...the earlier nap from 12 - 1:30 or 2 works really well and then he's ready for bed about 6 hours after he wakes up from nap, so he's asleep by 9pm at the latest...we usually start bedtime 6 hours after nap and the bedtime routine takes about 45 minutes or so. He's so much happier and well rested now. So we're back to the later bedtime but the peace in the house (mostly) is so worth it.

So long story short she probably really needs a nap, especially if you're fighting her to keep her awake in the afternoons. I would try to reintroduce it if you can. We stopped night nursing at 13 months, and he weaned at 18 months when I lost supply during my pregnancy. Night weaning helped a lot with sleeping through, and he seemed totally ready for it as it was really easy. I don't know if you'd consider that but just thought I'd throw it out there as that really helped with his sleeping through a lot more of the time - usually around 50% of the time after night weaning, and then when he around 2 he was at about 75%...and now we're at about 100%. Even if he wakes up my DH goes to his room (he sleeps on his own in a double bed) and climbs into bed with him and he's back to sleep within a minute or so.

[lisavark]

Eh, I've tried to nightwean her 4 or 5 different times, using the no-cry method and then the jay gordon method...every time involved hours of crying (with me or dh trying to comfort her). She is really not ready to wean. I am, but I'm trying other options right now!

I don't actually want a 6 pm bedtime...I'd be thrilled with 8 or even 9 if she were napping. My issue is getting her to sleep anytime before 11 after a nap, even though I was never letting her sleep later than 3 in the afternoons.

[sept15lija]

That's too bad about the night weaning, because I bet that would really help...argh that's hard. 11 pm is so late, especially if she's not sleeping past 3. I try not to let my DS sleep much past 2 unless he really needs it, but he could not get to 10 pm without passing out I don't think. I'm sure you've thought of this but does she get lots of physical activity? DS is outside a ton....in bad weather we try to go to an indoor playground. I'm sure you've thought of that though...

[lisavark]

I do EVERYTHING right as far as all the recommendations for sleep. I wake her at the same time every day, she's outside and exercising every morning and afternoon, she always has a rest time at the same time every day even though she doesn't nap, and her meals are very regular. She rarely watches any kind of tv or screen (more often now since she stopped napping, but never in the evenings unless it's been a horrible day and we just give up). We use a white noise machine, sleep time music, and we have light-blocking curtains. We have a bedtime routine.

And the super-early bedtime isn't working either. It seemed to work for one night, but last night and tonight she woke up after less than an hour and wouldn't go back to sleep. Right now (at 10:35) she's still awake (DH is taking a turn since I'm done trying). She went to bed at 6:15 and woke at 6:45, and that was it. She's been awake (in the dark room with the white noise and the music and a parent lying with her quietly) for four hours now. Still awake.

Sadly, this is pretty normal for her.

Should I be concerned? I'm thinking about talking to our doctor...or maybe taking her to a sleep center. Is that merited, do you think? I've never talked to a pedi or doctor about this before, because I was pretty sure the pedi we used to see would tell me to CIO. But we now have a family doctor who I really love who's very pro-AP. I did mention to her once that I was trying to nightwean, and she said something along the lines of how teaching my daughter to sleep was one of the best things I could do for her, which made me not want to talk to that doctor any more about it, because I don't believe that children need to be taught how to sleep. Sleep is a normal human function, and normal, healthy humans sleep as much as they need to, IMO. But I'm honestly starting to wonder whether my daughter has a medical issue that affects her sleep.

[kalamos23]

I feel you - DD had a good night the other night (bed at 10, up at 8am) and then last night didn't go to bed until 12 and was up at 6:45. She had a long nap yesterday though, which I'm wondering if that threw her off, even though it was at 12pm.

Anyway, no more advice, just big hugs to you. Is your DD very intense? I read in Dr. Sears Fussy Baby book and with gifted children that sleep issues abound with high needs kids because they are taking SO much in and have a much harder time turning it off and winding down because their little minds are just racing. This does make sense to me because DD is like that and so was DH (I think his mom was traumatized by his lack of sleep - they did hardcore CIO (stuck him in the crib and stuck earplugs in their ears and just left - they sai he screamed for hours every night for weeks) and he has trust issues that I think may stem from that in part) so I'm determined not to CIO, but wow, I wish she would sleep a little more at normal hours.

[kalamos23]

I should add that when I say she was in bed at 10 and up at 8 - she didn't sleep through - I wish! She nurses a LOT at night still - frequently on the boob for hours at a time. But we were in the bed for that long, kwim?

[echoecho1528]

DD's (also 27mo) sleep has always been bad too, and erratic in timing.
I think you are doing everything you can in regards to setting up her sleep environment so that it is conducive to sleep.
The one thing I didn't see in your post is how she falls asleep for naps and night sleeping. Does she still nurse to sleep? Up until a couple of months ago, my DD never fell asleep without a boob in her mouth. What we did at that time (because for some reason I was getting really irked at nursing at the time and needed to try something different) was change her pre-bed routine to occur in the living room and not her room. We now read books, brush teeth, nurse while I sing lullaby's, wipe teeth and hug/kiss/cuddle with daddy in the living room before going to her/our bedroom which is already set up with lights off, sound machine on & night-night music playing. Since we started doing this, she falls asleep in 15-30 minutes without nursing to sleep
Getting this particular rhythm going has helped to better regulate the rest of the day, which includes a long afternoon nap.
It used to be completely all over the place, but her day looks like this now:
Wake up: 7/730am
Nap:12/1-2-3
Nap routine start: 830
In bed: 9
Alseep by: 930
The change from nursing to sleep in bed was the only change we made and it seems to be working swimmingly. Also, she used to wake up 3-4 times per night with 3hrs max per sleep session, and is now consistently waking 1-2 times (more often 1) and sleeping at least one 5-6 hour stretch

Oh, and I would totally not rule out the possibility of 2yr molar teething being a culprit in keeping her up for hours at a time at night.

[lisavark]

Yes, she nurses to sleep, and I've been trying to change that since she was about 16 months old. I've tried nightweaning entirely (hours of crying while being held/rocked/comforted), the Pantley pull-off (she wakes up and takes hours to settle back down if I don't keep giving her the boob back until she's pretty much asleep), and having DH do bedtime (takes several hours). Still working on it. I still do the Pantley pull-off every time I nurse her, at bedtime and at night, and she is able to roll over and go to sleep without it now--but only when she's pretty much already asleep, eyes been closed for fifteen minutes and body completely relaxed. But if I don't nurse her down, she just doesn't go down, at least not for hours.

And yes, she is VERY intense. I loved Sleepless in America because it helped me see all the factors that are influencing her difficulty with sleep. She's VERY intense and VERY irregular in her biorhythms (despite all my efforts she's NEVER been on a predictable schedule, not once in her life), and she's also pretty sensitive to stimulii and moderately high-energy as well. So...her temperament is stacked against sleep on almost all counts. I laughed reading the description of the intense baby in Sleepless in America...it's totally her. My little drama queen. When she was a newborn, she SCREAMED like the world was ending every single time I took her off the boob for a second. Never mind setting her down. I just didn't set her down for more than a few seconds at a time till she was more than three months old, and barely after that till she was six months old, because it was like a siren going off every time I did. The only time she was every not latched onto my boob was when she was very deeply asleep, never for more than fifteen minutes at a time. I just never put my boobs away. Now I hear other newborns "fussing" now and just shake my head in wonder. Especially when they fuss themselves to sleep! My daughter never did anything like that. Fussing was not in her vocabulary--if she wasn't nursing or dead asleep, she was screaming!

Oh, and I know she was getting molars, but I think at least one of them has come in. I'm pretty sure she wasn't in pain the night she was up all night--she's done that every time I've tried nightweaning her, and it's a different kind of crying from when she's teething. When she's teething, she cries like she's in pain. When she's not nursing and trying to go to sleep, she alternates between angry "I-want-milk!" crying and pitiful "I-need-milk-and-I'm-so-tired" crying.

I would really like to get DH to do bedtime, not least because maybe then I could start to contemplate the idea of having another baby (DH really wants one, but I really want at least ONE full nights' sleep first!). He managed to get her down in about half an hour the other night...a very painful half hour, but still. Maybe we'll try something like your routine, echoecho, but without the nap to start, and with an earlier bedtime. And if that works, maybe we'll think about re-introducing nap...

I know she needs a nap--she fell asleep in the car at 5 pm yesterday--but I just can't stand the all-evening bedtime nursing sessions anymore!

[LCBMAX]

more hugs without answers.

[lisavark]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!

So she napped yesterday--I didn't plan that, it just happened--until 4 pm, and went to bed for the night at 10:30. After about 2.5 hours of nursing. Whatever.

But today I thought, hey, that's only 6.5 hours between waking up from nap and bedtime, so maybe if I woke her earlier...

And then amazingly, she fell asleep for a nap today at 1:30. So I woke her up at 3. Took her to the pool this afternoon. After dinner I put her in the bath, and she took a LONG bath, which was awesome because DH and I got to relax. When she got out DH told her some stories, and then she wanted to go to bed. Which is normal--she ALWAYS wants to go to bed after bath. Usually she just doesn't go to sleep. But I took her upstairs and did our bedtime routine...at 9:00 we lay down and nursed...and by 9:40 she was asleep. Which I know probably sounds like a crazy long time to most of you, but for her that was AWESOME! After not napping all day it still takes her 30 minutes to nurse to sleep--she really needs that 30 minutes of winding down. So I'm completely thrilled!!! I'm going to keep shooting for a 9:30 asleep time...that would be awesome!!!

I feel like I'm on vacation or something. I had time to myself in the afternoon while DD napped, AND I get time to myself in the evening?!?! Is this even possible?

Of course, DH is so tired that he fell asleep while I was upstairs with DD... Guess you can't win 'em all. Maybe we'll get couple time tomorrow night!

If I can just figure out the secret to getting her to fall asleep for a nap that early every day. I'll keep waking her at 7:30, though. Heck, maybe I'll try waking her at 7! I would totally get up earlier if it meant evening free time...

[Holiztic]

We also let nap go around 2 in favor of an earlier bedtime, though DS was never going to bed later than 9 or so. But I am an early bird and have to be in bed by 10, so when he went down at 9:15 I had so little time with DH and to myself in the evening. So we let nap go (he was taking so long to get down anyway).

At first it seemed fine--like he was handling it well, but by 2.5, 2.75 he started really getting cranky and acting out (obviously from being tired) and going to bed earlier and earlier (5:30 to 6:30 at that point). I was also going nuts with no break at all from my spirited/extroverted kid (I'm a serious introvert!) So we just (at a little past 3) went back to napping.

I decided if I was very matter-of-fact about it, it WOULD work....and it did!! Every single day (without fail) we go upstairs after lunch--we even have a routine like at bed--pee pee, get comfy in bed, read a story, 10 seconds to get the wiggles out, then I sing.

He slept every single day from the first day! I know it is because he knew I meant business! I had to remind him a million times that he could stay up later to go play outside with Daddy if he napped--that worked well (told him if he didn't sleep he'd have to go to bed right after dinner like before).

We got so confident with our success--we decided to start having him fall asleep by himself. Instead of singing to him and cuddling until he was totally out, we started singing for 10 minutes and then kissing him and saying "good night" or "good nap" and then we (or I for weekday naps) go across the hall to the office. We leave doors open and the hall light on and he falls asleep by himself! (Took a few days of him calling out and getting out of bed, but now he just knows how to do it!!)

The bottom line of my post is to say that being extremely consistent--no fail! And being confident and very matter-of-fact is so important. The moment they think something optional--you're sunk!!

And congrats on your recent success! I wish you luck in keeping it up!!