My dd is never going to have friends.

[neverdoingitagain]

I swear, every time I turn around, I find myself having to explain to my dd1 why her friend isn't behaving like a friend. Or at least thats just been my day so far.
I picked her up from school today(she's 6 and is the last month of kindergarten) and she told me that she has a new best friend. Great! Wonderful! Then she tells me that he told her that he would be her friend, if she gave him her block.

Then our neighbour has a little boy, he's 4 and lives part-time with his mother. My dd has become fast friends with him, but today he refused to come into our house because "Its so dirty!" His house is clean, his room is clean, his house is better, his food is better, everything is better over at his place. So I told him to go to his place then.
Our house isn't dirty, when he came over the first and only time it was a little messy. I was at work, and it was after supper. My dd rarely cleans her room, so that was a mess. Either way, I sent him home and sat down and had a talk with my dd about how friends aren't rude to their friends. Friends don't buy friends, Friends like you just the way you are and don't try to make you feel bad if you are different. Friends don't make fun of you, your clothes, your home or your family.


ARGGHHHHHH!!!! Please, please tell me it gets better? That our children get smarter about who they pick for friends?

Double ARGGGGHHH!! because I know the 4 year is just well, 4. Acting like a 4 year old pretty much and in the middle of a divorce(which is why he lives part-time with his mom). It just drives me mental when I hear kids talk like this to my dd and have her just TAKE IT. She just accepts it, we have to tell that stuff like is unacceptable. Which is part of being a parent I know, but do you really need to have someone tell you that being treated badly isn't acceptable? What the hell am I doing wrong if she doesn't realize it?

[limabean]

I so know what you mean -- we went through something similar at the beginning of kindergarten (DS is also finishing up K).

I had big talks with DS about what it means to be a friend, and had him tell me all the qualities that he thinks make someone a true friend. He named great stuff, like being nice, sharing, helping you feel better when you're sad, not laughing at you or hurting you, etc. So after that, I asked him if a certain boy at school (who was awful to DS but DS insisted he was his "best friend") had all those qualities. The answer was no, he didn't have any of those qualities, so DS was able to figure out on his own that that boy wasn't a true friend.

I told DS that he gets to choose his friends, and that he can choose to be around kids who act like true friends. I facilitated this by spending some time in his classroom, observing which kids were gentle/kind, and setting up get-togethers with those kids' moms so that my DS would have some familiarity with those kids -- when he saw them at school the next day he could say, "Hey, we were at the park together last night! Wasn't that fun? Wanna play?"

All that stuff really helped a lot -- he still says "hi" to that other boy, but he never refers to him as his "best friend" or spends all his time playing with/being bullied by him anymore. And I reinforce our talk often -- if he tells me about a nice interaction between him and another kid at school I'll say, "Wow, s/he sounds like a true friend, huh?"

[neverdoingitagain]

Originally Posted by limabean

I so know what you mean -- we went through something similar at the beginning of kindergarten (DS is also finishing up K).

I had big talks with DS about what it means to be a friend, and had him tell me all the qualities that he thinks make someone a true friend. He named great stuff, like being nice, sharing, helping you feel better when you're sad, not laughing at you or hurting you, etc. So after that, I asked him if a certain boy at school (who was awful to DS but DS insisted he was his "best friend") had all those qualities. The answer was no, he didn't have any of those qualities, so DS was able to figure out on his own that that boy wasn't a true friend.

I told DS that he gets to choose his friends, and that he can choose to be around kids who act like true friends. I facilitated this by spending some time in his classroom, observing which kids were gentle/kind, and setting up get-togethers with those kids' moms so that my DS would have some familiarity with those kids -- when he saw them at school the next day he could say, "Hey, we were at the park together last night! Wasn't that fun? Wanna play?"

All that stuff really helped a lot -- he still says "hi" to that other boy, but he never refers to him as his "best friend" or spends all his time playing with/being bullied by him anymore. And I reinforce our talk often -- if he tells me about a nice interaction between him and another kid at school I'll say, "Wow, s/he sounds like a true friend, huh?"

Thank you that was so incredibly helpful, you just cannot fathom.

[One_Girl]

I used to think all the other kids were just horrible friends while my little darling dd was a wonderful friend surrounded by kids who didn't know how to be friends. Then I volunteered in the classroom and found that these little phrases that would be unforgivable among adults are common and don't mean as much to kids, and that my dd was also in need of redirection and at times told other kids things that were also not polite. Kids at that age tend to be very honest with what they say because they haven't learned how to lie politely in order to not hurt someone's feelings. It comes off as very blunt and rude but it isn't intended that way. We talk a lot about what it means to be a friend and I gently tell children why something they said is hurtful, but I don't get as upset as I used to because it is a child thing that isn't taken as bad and mean among children (or if it is it is only a momentary bad that passes the next day). I started talking more to dd about how to treat friends and teaching her some phrases to say when friends say mean things as well so she knew it was okay to stand up for herself when she felt someone was rude. I also try to let her and her friends talk things out for a while first before intervening and I find that they are very capable of doing this. If she had a shy friend I may not wait as long though. It is a judgment I make based on the situation.

I think that making blanket statements about the children who slip up and say things adults don't say will be more likely to ensure that she doesn't have friends than anything else because you will be setting a high standard that no child can live up to. I used to tell my dd that the kids doing these things were mean and came from bad families, but that didn't help any and she started telling me they were mean if they did anything she didn't want them to do. She became very focused on her happiness only and I think that contributed to her not being a very good friend. It is hard to balance a realistic view of children with the mama bear instinct to have your child never experience a mean word, but now that I have changed my approach and stopped taking everything as a personal and intentional insult I have found that my dd is having better luck making good friends. She still has occassional tiffs, but she is very capable of working through them without intervention almost every time.

[SaoirseC]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

I used to think all the other kids were just horrible friends while my little darling dd was a wonderful friend surrounded by kids who didn't know how to be friends. Then I volunteered in the classroom and found that these little phrases that would be unforgivable among adults are common and don't mean as much to kids, and that my dd was also in need of redirection and at times told other kids things that were also not polite. Kids at that age tend to be very honest with what they say because they haven't learned how to lie politely in order to not hurt someone's feelings. It comes off as very blunt and rude but it isn't intended that way. We talk a lot about what it means to be a friend and I gently tell children why something they said is hurtful, but I don't get as upset as I used to because it is a child thing that isn't taken as bad and mean among children (or if it is it is only a momentary bad that passes the next day). I started talking more to dd about how to treat friends and teaching her some phrases to say when friends say mean things as well so she knew it was okay to stand up for herself when she felt someone was rude. I also try to let her and her friends talk things out for a while first before intervening and I find that they are very capable of doing this. If she had a shy friend I may not wait as long though. It is a judgment I make based on the situation.

I think that making blanket statements about the children who slip up and say things adults don't say will be more likely to ensure that she doesn't have friends than anything else because you will be setting a high standard that no child can live up to. I used to tell my dd that the kids doing these things were mean and came from bad families, but that didn't help any and she started telling me they were mean if they did anything she didn't want them to do. She became very focused on her happiness only and I think that contributed to her not being a very good friend. It is hard to balance a realistic view of children with the mama bear instinct to have your child never experience a mean word, but now that I have changed my approach and stopped taking everything as a personal and intentional insult I have found that my dd is having better luck making good friends. She still has occassional tiffs, but she is very capable of working through them without intervention almost every time.

well said!

[Kindermama]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

I think that making blanket statements about the children who slip up and say things adults don't say will be more likely to ensure that she doesn't have friends than anything else because you will be setting a high standard that no child can live up to.

I agree. At some point, your dd will take the judgements she is learning from you and apply it to herself. All you can do is empower your daughter to be kind even in the face of perceived enemies...that's being human, that's being real. This ideal friend(s) you want your dd to find doesn't exist. All human relationships have ups and downs.

[neverdoingitagain]

Thanks for the words, they help put things in perspective.
Contrary to your beliefs at the moment, I don't think my dd is perfect. We had a very rough couple years, I know she is just as capable of making rude remarks and being manipulative. I am just as quick to point out when she is being rude too. I don't usually intervene with her friends, I know they will eventually work it out.
But she does just accept other kids being mean to her. Just after Christmas break, she came home with a note from a girl in her class that said "I hate you" She's in kindergarten. This same little girl had been hitting and pinching her, and getting other kids to do it too. She never said anything to me until almost 2 months later. So, I'm a more vigilant in regards to her friends.
As for the 4 year old, the more I think about it, the more I think he's feeling insecure. Not many children, even 4 year olds would come into a strangers house and say that everything he has is better. I mean, my dh was playing World or Warcraft, and his moms game was better. His mom had a better hunter, with a better pet, his fridge looked better, had better food, better toys, so on and so on. I think he feels like we're in competition with him. If his stuff isn't better, my dd won't like him Sad, but still annoying.
My dd went to go visit him last night and when my dh came to pick her up, he told my dh that my dd was having a better time at his place.

I agree about the blanket statements and judgments, I feel like I'm walking on glass half the time and hot coals the other. I feel like if I say the wrong thing, I'm going to mess her up for life. I want her to be able to be secure in herself and not be bullied, and I want her to be discerning yet open. All the while, I want her navigate it on her own, so she learn from her own experiences.

ARGGGHHHH!!! Its maddening. I miss life when she was an infant. It was so much easier.

[limabean]

Originally Posted by Kindermama

This ideal friend(s) you want your dd to find doesn't exist. All human relationships have ups and downs.

In my DS's case, waaaaay better friends existed than the boy who consistently and intentionally hurt him and then laughed at him for being upset. I can't imagine just teaching him to accept behavior like that, or teaching him that that's just a normal part of relationship up-and-downs.

That "friend" was, justifiably, ditched in favor of some really sweet kids who, of course, have normal conflicts every once in a while, and those we work through because the friendships are valuable in so many ways. But outright bullies? No, I'm not interested in teaching DS that he has to tolerate that behavior.

[neverdoingitagain]

Originally Posted by limabean

In my DS's case, waaaaay better friends existed than the boy who consistently and intentionally hurt him and then laughed at him for being upset. I can't imagine just teaching him to accept behavior like that, or teaching him that that's just a normal part of relationship up-and-downs.

That "friend" was, justifiably, ditched in favor of some really sweet kids who, of course, have normal conflicts every once in a while, and those we work through because the friendships are valuable in so many ways. But outright bullies? No, I'm not interested in teaching DS that he has to tolerate that behavior.

[tbone_kneegrabber]

I justed to say about the example in the OP, "I'll be your friend if you give me a block," is essentially the same thing as "Friends share with each other" translated to a kid it means, if you were to share with me that would mean we are friends.

[neverdoingitagain]

Originally Posted by tbone_kneegrabber

I justed to say about the example in the OP, "I'll be your friend if you give me a block," is essentially the same thing as "Friends share with each other" translated to a kid it means, if you were to share with me that would mean we are friends.

I hope thats what he meant! Growing up, the phrase "I'll be your friend if..." meant if you don't do what I want you to do, I'm going to ignore you or make fun of you. Personally, I see it as a slippery slope that I don't want my dd on.

[K1329]

One thing I've noticed with dd, 6, is that there is alot of trial and error with friends at this age. They are truly learning how to be and how to have friends. There will be some mistakes along the way, all part of the learning process. They will be mad at each other over something, then, almost instantly, smiling and hugging one another. I try to stay out of it and let her navigate it (somewhat, of course) on her own, stepping in only when she requests, or, when I think there's a problem that is bigger than the usual disagreements/mishaps.

[One_Girl]

Have you read Protecting the Gift? I have heard it mentioned a lot on threads like this but haven't read it. It sounds like your dd is experiencing relationships that go beyond the normal. Vioence between friends this age is a big deal, especially if it is ongoing and other kids are involved. I don't think the things you talk about in your first post are things that would be bothersome, especially every once in a while. I would be concerned about my child being in an unsafe environment where lots of kids physically attack her and she doesn't see that this is abnormal and needs to be reported to a safe adult. That is not in any way related to normal comments that occur between friends.

[neverdoingitagain]

Yup, read "Protecting the Gift" and "Hold onto your kids". (not the same author, obviously) They are two of my favorite books. Definite must reads, I think.
She's safe at kindergarten, there are 2 teachers in her class and they know about the little girl. Kids are sneaky though, they were watching out for the other little girl before and they still missed stuff.

[MommaMoo]

Originally Posted by neverdoingitagain

Yup, read "Protecting the Gift" and "Hold onto your kids". (not the same author, obviously) They are two of my favorite books. Definite must reads, I think.
She's safe at kindergarten, there are 2 teachers in her class and they know about the little girl. Kids are sneaky though, they were watching out for the other little girl before and they still missed stuff.

I treasure my copy of "Hold on to Your Kids." For me, it really justified my instincts of wanting to keep ds close to me and to be cautious in whom I let him spend time around.
I went through a similar situation as you a short time ago. Unfortunately, the kid I don't want ds around happens to be our neighbor. He's a very controlling kid who told my ds that the things he built were stupid, made fun of his laugh, didn't let ds play with his own toys when he visited, etc. I won't allow ds to play with him anymore.
I think you have to do a delicate balancing act between, "Ok, is this just typical, every once in a while behavior that kids partake in, or is this kid just someone I DON'T want my child around?" I too had a very hard time explaining to ds why the neighbor kid was not a good friend nor someone he would be allowed to spend time with. DS didn't see the problem, which is very frustrating. I also feel like I'll be fending off a bunch of bullying "friends" for a long time to come. But you know what? My parents didn't do that for me when I was a kid, and I ended up with a very long list of "friends" when I was a kid who treated me like crap. And that lasted until my late teens. I don't believe in just leaving kids to their own devices to figure out social situations.
At this point, I feel like ds doesn't even need to completely understand why he can't hang out with so-and-so. My first goal is to protect him and to let him know that certain behavior toward him is absolutely not acceptable and that I won't allow it. He'll understand better as he gets older. I think our kids are very lucky to have moms like us. They will grow up knowing how a true friend behaves. I strongly believe that success and happiness in life is heavily dependent upon the company you keep.

[~cassie]

We are going through the same with my 5 yr old. The neighbor kids just want to be friends so they can use his stuff. If they ask to swim in our pool/jump on the trampoline--and I tend to say no b/c my younger ones are out there, then they take off and want nothing to do with him. They(a 4 and 6 yr old) called my oldest a loser b/c I told them they couldn't jump! I hope it gets better!

[Kindermama]

Originally Posted by limabean

that he has to tolerate that behavior.

In no way was I trying to portray tolerance for bullying. I was speaking directly to the OP's experience. My thoughts and advice might have shifted if she said someone was intentionally hurting her child and then laughing at her! That's a whole other post!

To me, the experiences in the OP are very normal for this age group! That's where I suggest it be taken lightly and lovingly. They are 4 year olds afterall!

I might have said..

"Other child, wow, you must really like your house to be super clean. Do you help your mama out at home? What kinds of things do you like to help her do to keep it clean?.....etc etc and have a connecting conversation with other child. A little compassion for a child goes a long way. Maybe his mom is a perfectionist or something....

then "My Child, I guess your friend really likes clean houses!" and let it go. Kids let it go...we're the ones that don't and we create victims out of our kids in our minds and then project that onto them at an early age.

I say "empower" them with kindness and compassion and truth and keep the victimization for the real tough situations (bullying etc).