"Stop talking!!"

[laohaire]

This is not a new problem but it's bugging me again. DD gets bored in the car and if we're driving more than 3 minutes (for real, only 3 minutes) she announces she wants to go to sleep. "OK, go to sleep" we'll tell her.

But frequently she'll insist we (DH and I) stop talking. Nope, sorry. Yes, I can hear some of you saying "awww, you should be quiet at least for a little while so she can fall asleep." Sorry, I just don't feel that way. She says she's BORED. Tough patooties I say DD already feels the world revolves around her as it is, I don't consider it remotely appropriate that she demand her parents cease normal conversation on cue. DH and I could not even conceive of making similar demands with our parents when we were young.

But she's got us. She starts doing things like yelling over and over "Stop talking!! Stop talking!! Stop talking!!" - and in fact will continue to do it long after we've stopped talking anyway. DH and I simply cannot ignore her and converse over her - our brains short out. We just cannot follow our train of thought with that level of interruption.

She's nearly 5, she's not a baby, she's not sleepy in the car (she has not napped since 18 months; she only sleeps when bored in the car, and it's not a daily thing either since we're only in the car a couple times a week maybe so it's not like she has grown accustomed to a nap during a certain time of day). She doesn't need to sleep. It's ok with me if she does sleep when bored in the car, but I'm not stopping my life to enable it. She can either figure out how to fall asleep with normal conversation in the car or she can look out the window like every other kid in the universe.

So she knows how to manipulate us and we feel totally stuck. We can't redirect her. We can't ignore her. We can't move her to another room. I'm not exactly inclined to reach back and slap her. And I don't care to give her yet another reason to believe the earth rotates around her axis. Ideas?

Oh, and yes we've tried toys, she will play for 3 minutes and then announce that she's bored and wants to go to sleep. Unfortunately back when she was 2 years old we humored her and would be quiet for a few minutes. I really wish I could take that back. No, a DVD player is not an option, even if it wasn't way more expensive than we could swing, I don't care to create a car-TV addiction. We all somehow managed to ride in a car for 10 minutes (yes, 10 minutes, I'm NOT talking about 5 hour car trips) without being entertained, why can't she?

[2xy]

Originally Posted by laohaire

DD already feels the world revolves around her as it is, I don't consider it remotely appropriate that she demand her parents cease normal conversation on cue. DH and I could not even conceive of making similar demands with our parents when we were young.

It's perfectly normal for a 4yo child to feel that the world revolves around her. Your daughter is in the preoperational stage of cognitive development. One of the primary characteristics of this stage is the inability to see things from another's perspective.

As for you and your DH, I seriously doubt you accurately remember your own behavior at the age of four.

But she's got us. She starts doing things like yelling over and over "Stop talking!! Stop talking!! Stop talking!!" - and in fact will continue to do it long after we've stopped talking anyway. DH and I simply cannot ignore her and converse over her - our brains short out. We just cannot follow our train of thought with that level of interruption.

Your post sounds to me like she gets overwhelmed and frustrated by the chatter and is looking for a few minutes of peace. I can relate, because I'm the same way. How many times in your life have you heard parents tell their kids to be quiet? Why is it unacceptable for your daughter to want quiet? Because she's not 18 yet? She's still a person.

Maybe, instead of ignoring her, you could teach her to ask nicely rather than demand that you stop talking. If she said, "Mama, can you be quiet for a few minutes?"....would that make you more willing to accommodate her? I mean, if she starts screaming at you to stop talking, to the point where everyone is frazzled and upset and you can't talk anyway because of the screaming, wouldn't it just make more sense to find some compromise?

[BellinghamCrunchie]

She doesn't sound spoiled; she doesn't sound like she believes things about herself that are inappropriate or abnormal for her developmental age; she does suffer from being compared to other children and the way you remember yourselves at her age.

It can be very frustrating. DD is 5.5 and just now coming into an awareness that other people also exist as fully as she does. It will be another decade before that fully develops. I don't think you can rush that awareness on your DD; she doesn't have the perspective you have as an adult and to her its just mystifying, or punishing, that she is not listened to about others being quiet in the car.

I think the best way to work withher at this age is to lay the groundwork for effective negotiating and compromising with other people, which will serve her all her life. She can't expect absolute silence from other human beings, but there must be something that will help all of you get what you need.

Please, please stop comparing her to your memories of yourselves as children or comparing her to other children. She is herself and no one else. Work with her, let her be who she is. These comparisons will do nothing but damage your relationship with each other, and they just inflame your sense of indignity about how wrong what she is requesting of you is, blocking your ability to work at an effective solution.

[NiteNicole]

It's possible that riding in the car really does make her sleeping and being four, she'd rather chew off her own foot (or pick a fight with her parents) than admit she's sleepy. So she's sleepy and not sleeping, which makes her cranky, which makes her irrational and shouty.

All this to say I agree, yelling at you to stop talking because she's sleepy is unreasonable but she may be feeling pretty unreasonable anyway. Can she wear headphones and listen to music? This works for my daughter.

[neverdoingitagain]

One small suggestion, do you have an mp3 player or something like that? It might help with long car rides and cover the noise of talking.
Oh, Nitenicole mentioned too ok great minds think alike.

[LCBMAX]

Headphones with an old fashioned walkman-type thing, or an mp3 player that you control so she can listen to a favorite story instead of engaging your frustration?

[Minxie]

I agree with talking to her about it and suggesting she ask more politely if she would like a bit of quiet. That knife slices both ways in our house, as there are occasionally times when I want some quiet and it seems there are too few moments of quiet in our fast-paced world. We (my son and I) try to respect each other's words and be quiet for a few moments upon request. We usually limit it to five minutes since he can easily see the dashboard clock from his seat.

If you discuss it with her and cannot reach a reasonable compromise, then perhaps you could outline some natural consequences to her. For instance, yelling in the car could cause an accident. This is as much a safety issue as unbuckling a seatbelt. If someone yells in the car, the car should be pulled to the side of the road just as with unbuckling a seatbelt.

Or the next time it happens, you could turn around and head for home where one of you could stay home with her while the other runs the errand. Yes, it is horribly inconvenient but...

Or you could hire a sitter for the next time all three of you are going somewhere. Let her know that you have hired a sitter for her since she is having trouble controlling her yelling and you'll see her when you finish the errands.

HTH

[laohaire]

I'm sorry, I'm trying to read all this with an open mind, but I just can't agree that it's reasonble or good for my daughter that we bend over backwards for this.

Again, we are talking about 10 minute car rides. I understand a 5 hour car ride is torture for everyone, most of all small children. That's a whole different scenario.

And, it's every damn time, not just when it's been a long day or she's tired or not feeling well or cranky. She feels entitled to dictate silence in the car each and every time we're all in it.

No, I am definitely not getting a babysitter just so we can run an errand together. I don't even understand what that will teach her - other than that mommy and daddy will go to extremes and also quite a bit of expense to spare her 10 minutes of boredom? I don't believe for a minute that will serve her in life. She needs to deal with 10 minutes of boredom somehow.

No, I don't remember every moment of being 4, but I sure do remember being 4. I know I remember being 4 because we moved when I was 4 and I have very clear memories of the previous house and my interactions with my parents. I did not boss my parents around, not like that anyway. My mother agrees with my memory of that as well.

No, the reason the demands for silence are unacceptable are not because she's under 18. That's absurd. Obviously it would be MORE unacceptable for an adult to do this. If my MIL couldn't ride to the grocery store without demanding total silence from everyone else (every single time), we'd have problems. And we'd probably refer her to a doctor to boot.

I'm not saying that I have a mentally ill 4 year old, not at all. I know my 4 year old is normal. I don't know how to deal with this behavioral issue, though, which is why I came here for advice. All the options I see are either unacceptable (yelling at her, spanking, threats of various punishments to happen later, etc.) or will simply teach her that it's ok to make such demands on others (actually obeying her wishes, or even just obeying them for 5 of the 10 minutes in the car).

I don't think it's accurate to say "oh, she just wants some peace and quiet, just like you do sometimes." Yes, I'm perfectly ok with providing some peace and quiet if sometimes she wanted some. Sure, I've been there. I'm not ok with obeying her consistent rule that we must do it every time we're driving 5 miles down the road. Proof that I'm ok with some requests? The very fact that we got ourselves in this mess in the first place: because we've honored her requests before. Too much, apparently.

So, for me it's not about asking nicely. She can ask nicely but the answer is still no. We bend over backwards for her in so many ways, I'm not adding another situation where she has the power to dictate the reasonable behavior of others. We're not talking about "mommy it's 11:30pm and I'm tired, please stop playing the stereo at top volume." My husband and I are perfectly reasonable to hop in the car and chat a bit on the way to a destination, and it's not because my daughter is a child that it's unreasonable for her to ask us to never do this.

[neveryoumindthere]

I agree with most of what you said. I'd be frustrated with that too.

First, I'd let my kids know that mom and dad get cranky when they can't have time for grown up conversation and that it's not ok to yell at mom and dad to stop talking...

and also what about giving her 'quiet time' before you head out? Maybe telling her ok we have to do xyz errand soon, if you want some quiet time to yourself you can go colour/draw/read in your room for 10 minutes, because mom and dad will be talking in the car.

I personally NEED, desperately, to have times during the day where it's just SILENT or I feel like my head will literally explode. My older dd is this way as well, so I "get" wanting no talking, though my trigger response is to get upset having a kid tell me to be quiet. Maybe she's the same? The car is her 'down time'?

hth

Also, forgive my ignorance. I just read your sig re: hearing impairment. Is it possible the conversation is just too loud for your dd when in the car?

[NiteNicole]

Well, she's four. If this happens every time you get in the car, it's become a habit. You clearly can't MAKE her stop demanding quiet (I know, I have a four year old and while we get along pretty well and she's becoming a good listener and wants to be a good helper, I can't MAKE her do much of anything) then you need to distract her or change things up to break the habit, which is why I suggested headphones for a small, inexpensive CD player or mp3 player. It's something she can control herself and either music or a story will keep her occupied and busy...or maybe just playing with whatever machine you give her.

Sometimes you have to look for the work-around.

[Ornery]

I wouldn't feel comfortable with my children treating me this way either. I treat them with respect and expect to be treated with respect as well. And I believe 4 is old enough to know how to treat people with respect. Of course, parental reminders are necessary.

Demands don't work in our household (even if they are made by adults) and shouting "Stop talking" over and over again would be considered very rude if my children chose to act that way. We also have a rule that no shouting or screeching or screaming is allowed in the car as it is dangerous. Every time they screeched, we would pull over and let them know that wasn't okay because it was dangerous. Not much fun for us for awhile but it made the point.

I would offer earplugs and would try to be considerate of her needs (i.e., talking quietly and keeping the music low) once she expressed them in a way that is consistent with our family values. I would definitely help her with that every single time. Personally, I wouldn't feel inclined to get a walkman or mp3 player as I would feel that would be a bit of a reward for some pretty out there behavior (this is all directed at how I would approach it with my children, of course). After all, she is demanding silence. If it is about her needing quiet time, earplugs or noise canceling headphones should fulfill that need.

If it is about her being bored or needing interaction, I would discuss what that might entail with her and would figure out a way to meet her needs and ours. For instance, setting a timer for "her time" (i.e., singing a song together, playing I-spy, talking about the scenery, make a list with her) and setting a timer for "parent time" when you can discuss parental/adult stuff. She can look at books or whatever during parent time.

Of course, I am not a consensual living parent so YMMV. I do, however, try to parent with respect.

[SoulCakes]

Ooh, my daughter does this too (just turned five). Not while we're in the car, though. She hates being alone - ever - so she'll set up her books/games/whatever right next to us and then demand total and utter silence. We'll say, "If you want silence, go read in your room," but then she'll scream, "But I'll be loooonely!" Yeah, well.

We started out by simply telling her that demanding isn't a polite way to ask for what you want, to telling her that, sorry, she can't dictate what we do, to flat out telling her to stop. She hasn't really gotten the point yet. I hope it's just a stage.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful!

[jkn]

I don't know if I can offer much help, but I can relate. My ds does this sometimes and it drives me crazy! I don't speak to him that way, he shouldn't speak to me that way - as much as you can expect that from a 3 year old! The way I deal with it, is to explain to him that he needs to express himself more politely. It's fine if he wants quiet, but he needs to ask nicely, and if we're in the house he can hang out and play quietly in his room if something is bothering him/too loud (which is rare). Sorry, I can't be of much help - I feel for you though.

[Tjej]

My best idea is that you plan to take way longer to get places for a while and just pull over every time she starts the yelling and wait for her to stop yelling so you can keep driving and get where you are going. It is distracting and hard to drive properly while being yelled at, so I think that is a very logical consequence. I do occassionally do this with my kids and it works very well.

Tjej

ETA: Of course say this is what you will be doing for yelling in the car from now on, and then if it happens once remind, then do.

[odenata]

Originally Posted by Eclipse95

We also have a rule that no shouting or screeching or screaming is allowed in the car as it is dangerous. Every time they screeched, we would pull over and let them know that wasn't okay because it was dangerous. Not much fun for us for awhile but it made the point.

This is what I might try, with the hope that after the first few times she would understand that the behavior will not be tolerated in the car. Of course, it requires both a safe place to pull over and time to do this, so I might plan to do it for a week and then re-assess and come up with a different plan if it isn't working.

I also think distraction, like headphones, might be worth a try.

[newmum35]

My son is only 2 so we're not there yet, but if he began to distract us in the car by yelling non-stop, we'd likely pull over until he could compose himself again. Certain behavior is not acceptable when it could put everyone at risk of an accident. So thats my best advice, but I'm guessing it will mean leaving a half hour early (for a 10 minute trip) because you're going to be pulled over more than you are riding. But maybe with some consistency it might work if she hates riding in the car, and by her own actions she is turning 10 minutes into 30 or 40...worth a try.

I know what you mean about memories of ourselves and our own parents. We weren't supposed to talk or make noise in the car. Whispering to each other in the back was ok, if it didnt distract parents up front.

I think she behaves this way because you put up with it. There is no consequence to the behavior. Pull over and let her know that it is not acceptable for a 5 year old to demand her parents stop talking in the car. (Since you've allowed it in the past make a point that she is nearly 5 and this will have to soon stop) I'd also take the time to try to learn more during that talk. Try to find out why she is acting this way. Is she sad or jealous because you are talking with each other and not with her? Or is it she genuinely prefers every car ride to be totally quiet with nobody talking to each other (is she this way at home when you talk to each other or only in the car?)

Perhaps you could reach a compromise such as on the way TO the destination, you will converse as normal and if she behaves herself then on the way BACK from the destination, you and dh will keep it quiet ... if she can compose herself for at least half the trip, it is a start. Then later you can make a change and the reward can be for something later after you've gotten home if she behaves for both rides.... just throwing some ideas around here, I'm no expert its definitely not appropriate I'm just not sure WHY she is behaving this way but if you can figure THAT out, then maybe you can figure out how to solve it

[provocativa]

Pulling over is a good idea. Make sure the second or third car ride after the initial introduction is a trip somewhere she really wants to go, so if she violates the policy she gets the consequence.

She's right close to reading age, and once you can get her reading then you will have a break for awhile (as long as she doesn't get carsick). I'd manipulate this angle. If she understands the new rule (pulling over for screaming), then I'd reward her if she does well with it. Not as an immediate consequence for the behavior (I don't generally like rewards) but in an offhand manner on a day without a car trip- we noticed that you've been working hard not to scream in the car. we wanted to thank you for your hard work and have gotten you this ipod MP whatever, (which happens to only play books on tape, not the wiggles). at my library they still have books on tape, and a 5 year old actually might enjoy a $1 garage sale walkman or a cd walkman, because you can see the spinning wheel of the cd and tape.

[laohaire]

Hi everyone. Thanks. I was very cranky myself yesterday, unfortunately. (I've suddenly had this problem some days... it's a new thing, honestly... just being cranky for no good reason).

I think the pulling over is a good idea. It's a natural consequence. We're rarely in a rush so taking extra time is not usually a problem for us.

The MP3 idea is a good one too. Unfortunately we're among the last 15 people in the United States who don't have one. (Yeah, I don't have a cell phone either). We do have a CD player in the car, though, and I can offer to put on her music. I don't mind talking to DH with DD's music going on at the same time. Just hopefully she doesn't keep demanding that we be quiet so she can listen, but then we can go to pulling over

[One_Girl]

My dd used to tell us to stop talking but what she actually meant was include me in your conversation. She was used to having free access to me to tell me things and had a hard time being excluded from conversations. I told her we wouldn't stop talking but that she could share something in about half a minute when we finished the conversation we were on. I also made more of an effort to include her in conversations when there were other people besides me in the car. Playing kid music, books on tape, a personal cd player (they are $10-$15 but a wonderful investment), letting her look at books, a small tupperware container of legos for the car only, and ignoring any complaints or yelling to stop talking (after telling her when her turn would be) also helped a lot. Sometimes we had to yell over her yells to be heard but it helped for her to see that she was sometimes going to need to wait.

[heartmama]

No I would not stop talking. I'd offer reasonable ways for her to meet a need for silence (headphones, earplugs) and I'd be sure to keep my conversation on the softer side (not lots of loud laughing) but her demand for silence is unreasonable, even at 4. She is old enough to cope with a little soft talking on a 10 minute car ride.

At this point I think her demand has become a habit. She might really believe it has to be quiet in order for her to be happy. My focus would be empowering her to learn otherwise. Talk about the issue before you get in the car on a non-essential trip, preferably one she really wants to participate in. She is big enough to connect the dots. So I'd say something like "Here is a bag I made you if you want quiet. There are headphones and earplugs inside. Daddy and I are going to talk quietly in the car. If you start yelling at us to stop we will turn around and go home. It is not safe to yell and scream in a car. I will give you one reminder, and then we will go home. Do you understand?"

You must, of course, be prepared to turn around and go home. Do not say it if you won't do it. I prefer this to the "stop and pull over" technique because a very stubborn kid will end up sitting with you on the side of the road for a long time. I'd rather just take the kid home. Once home I'd reinforce what happened with something like "I told you if you yelled at us we would go home. The next time we go somewhere, the same thing will happen. No more yelling at us to be quiet. I hope you remember to use your quiet bag instead". Then drop the issue, even if she harps on it. Move on. Next time, go through the same routine. Appear in control--do not get into an emotional scene over it. You said the rule, you followed through, no need for drama. Don't get mad at her if she tests the rule to see whether you meant it. Parents often fall into that trap--they offer a choice, then get upset if the child chooses 'wrong'. Let her make her choices--she needs room to figure out how to handle the car ride without screaming at you. The choice to let you talk without screaming has to be more attractive than the alternative. In time she will find she can cope with your talking just fine. If you can find time to do this often enough, chances are good she will get out of the habit of yelling at you.