Dogs for Sheep?

[lobster]

We are finally moving to our dream home on July 1 and will be getting some sheep. Coyotes are a problem in our area, and I wanted to get a herding dog to round up the sheep and also alert us to any potential threats in the night.

I'm thinking of getting a German Shepherd Dog or a border collie. I'm not too interested in a puppy, but my husband thought perhaps a puppy would be our best bet.

I am totally new to sheep and sheep dogs (our dog is an old lazy coonhound/bloodhound cross). Please give me any thoughts, advice, opinions, words of wisdom, etc. that you might have in order to assist me in my dog decision making process.

Thanks in advance!

[Oubliette8]

I'm a little confused as to whether you want a herding dog or a flock guardian? They are two different kinds of dogs, and I can't think of any breed that does both jobs.

A flock guardian lives with your sheep full time, 24/7. Their job is to protect them and fight or scare off threats life coyotes. They bond with the flock so that the sheep accept them as one of their own.

A herding dog herds the sheep. They work with you to move the sheep from one location to another. The sheep should NOT be so accepting of a herding dog because the dog acts as an aversive that gets them to move. The dog should not be left unsupervised with the sheep, because many herding dogs will constantly work the flock, which is stressful to the sheep. It could also lead to aggression towards the sheep as herding is actually fine tuned predatory behavior, if left unsupervised, its not so good.

A flock guardian requires little in the way of human interaction. They live with the sheep, most are indifferent to people. You would want to start with a puppy, so it grows up thinking it is one of the flock.

A herding dog requires a LOT of human interaction. While herding is instinctual, it requires a lot of training for the dog to learn how to channel the instinct, and for the human to learn how to coordinate with the dog. I've heard its actually quite hard. You can actually get lessons in herding, and it takes quite a bit of work, practice and training for both human and dog to get a good, functional, working relationship.

Guard breeds include- Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherd, Kuvasz, Komondor, Marrema Sheepdogs, Akbash and Kangals

Herding breeds include- Border Collies, Australian shepherds, German Shepherds, Corgis, Shelties, Collies, Malinois, Australian Cattle Dogs, and Kelpies

The first order of business is deciding what you need. If you live on a small property, you probably don't need a herding breed. And since they would be in the house with you or kenneled away from the sheep at night, they probably wouldn't be much good against coyotes. I'd be inclined to think you would be looking more for a Guardian. its also worth mentioning, if you want a companion dog, their are other animals that make good flock guardians- Llamas and Donkeys can both deter coyotes. If you do want to herd, I'd HIGHLY recommend finding a shepherd in your area who uses dogs. They can help you assess your needs breed wise and help to train you and the dog.

[lobster]

Thank you for your reply!! We had been thinking of a herding dog, but we are on a smaller property and after reading your reply, I'm thinking perhaps a guard dog would be better.

[hildare]

Originally Posted by lobster

I am totally new to sheep and sheep dogs (our dog is an old lazy coonhound/bloodhound cross).

Thanks in advance!

night and day... night and day. i'm the co mama to both a border collie and a coonhound. should you get a border collie, you will be AMAZED! you will have a dog who listens to you! a dog who wants to obey! a dog who doesn't want to escape!!! a dog who likes to work and barks very little!!!

if you do not want a puppy, (we don't have sheep, though, fwiw), and you are probably very right in not wanting to be responsible for the training, many many breeders will sell you a fully trained young adult border c. many people prefer to get them that way.

[SophieAnn]

Originally Posted by Oubliette8

Guard breeds include- Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherd, Kuvasz, Komondor, Marrema Sheepdogs, Akbash and Kangals

Herding breeds include- Border Collies, Australian shepherds, German Shepherds, Corgis, Shelties, Collies, Malinois, Australian Cattle Dogs, and Kelpies

Fantastic post and great advice, but you forgot about the best herding dog ever, the Old English Sheepdog (I'm not biased at all).

[brittneyscott]

I agree a guardian dog is more likely what you are wanting/needing than a herding dog. Generally lgd's are sold at around 3-4 months old (at least in my area) so that they have had time to get used to being around livestock and learn some basic guidelines from their mom. The only breed I've had is Great Pyrenees and I love them. Great dogs and awesome for protecting the livestock.

Here is a good site with information on each breed:
http://www.lgd.org/

[lobster]

Originally Posted by hildare

night and day... night and day. i'm the co mama to both a border collie and a coonhound. should you get a border collie, you will be AMAZED! you will have a dog who listens to you! a dog who wants to obey! a dog who doesn't want to escape!!! a dog who likes to work and barks very little!!!

You'd be shocked and surprised if you were to meet my old hound dog. He is NOTHING like any other coonhound I've ever met, including his sister. He is calm, laid back, highly obedient, stays close to the house, walks well off-leash in public areas, and he's QUIET! He will sometimes whine when he wants in the house, but other than that I've only heard him bawl a few times in his life, and he's almost ten years old!

[Narmowen]

Originally Posted by lobster

Thank you for your reply!! We had been thinking of a herding dog, but we are on a smaller property and after reading your reply, I'm thinking perhaps a guard dog would be better.

Please think about it-research both herding & guardian breeds.

A guardian is a wanderer. Quite literally. If you give a Great Pyr 10 acres, he wants 50. If you give him 50, he'll want 100.

Yes, they can be great guardians, but they have no need of human interaction. They are incredibly hard to train because they don't have the people pleasing gene. They've been bred to be incredibly independent.

[Oubliette8]

Originally Posted by lobster

You'd be shocked and surprised if you were to meet my old hound dog. He is NOTHING like any other coonhound I've ever met, including his sister. He is calm, laid back, highly obedient, stays close to the house, walks well off-leash in public areas, and he's QUIET! He will sometimes whine when he wants in the house, but other than that I've only heard him bawl a few times in his life, and he's almost ten years old!

I wouldn't describe most herding breeds are calm or laid back. Some aren't even quiet (Shelites are notorious barkers). If you're interested in a BC, you should do quite a bit of research, they are nothing like even the best behaved hound. They are highly intelligent and need constant mental stimulation. They are so smart that they will get into quite a lot of mischief if not properly engaged. A bored BC is a recipe for disaster and when I say constant stimulation, I do mean CONSTANT. If they are working they go a bit nuts. working can be sheep, or they are popular for agility, flyball etc. But they are VERY intense dogs, not for the faint of heart or the casual dog owner. If you don't have a lot of time to devote to keeping the dog entertained daily, a BC is not the dog for you.

[lobster]

Thanks, Oubliette. I wasn't comparing my hound to a border collie, I was merely commenting on how starkly different my hound is in comparison to other coonhounds.

After looking into my options, reading all the advice I received on this thread, and looking for breeders in my area, I've decided not to get another dog. With our property being on the small side, I will just do the work myself. The sheep will be put in the barn at night to keep them safe from the coyotes, eliminating the need for a guard dog. I'll round the sheep up myself.

[Aubergine68]

A friend of mine keeps a couple of llamas to protect her goats/milk cows/sheep from coyotes. I'd never heard of this, but it is apparently very effective.