Original Sin

[JMJ]

Disclaimer: I do not want to debate the Church's doctrine of original sin. If you are not Catholic or other Christian who believes in original sin, or if you believe that the Church is wrong about original sin, posts to that effect will not be found helpful.

In all I'm reading and researching, I'm really leaning towards a method of discipline based on respect for the child's will and actions rather than control. I understand that there are times that for the child's safety or the good of the community or family, that sometimes the child's will has to be thwarted, but in those cases, I would deal with it by affirming the child's desires, explaining why the action was unwise, and offering or brainstorming a better solution rather than punishing. In things that won't hurt her or somebody else or cause significant inconvenience or waste, though, I pretty much let her make her own decisions, and even in those cases, I try to give her the chance to make the right decision on her own. Punishment is not involved. If it's something that I'm not going to let her do it, I just don't let her do it. If it's something she can't have, I just don't give it to her. If she wants to scream about it, she can scream about it.

She'll slowly learn to make her own decisions, and it really allows her to shine, making some wonderful decisions to be helpful by mimicing me or making sure her needs are met. She's a beautiful, creative, cheerful, loving toddler, and I want my time to be spent fostering virtues rather than focusing on all she shouldn't be doing.

I'm Catholic, and my Catholic friends and many Catholics I hear seem to think that the kind of loving guidance (to use a LLL term... Even though they're not religious now, remember that they were started by Catholic women) that I am referring to completely ignores or at least does not give enough weight to original sin. I do really want to conform my will to Church teaching, but I don't think that my ideas our outside of the bounds of Catholic teaching. Perhaps they need to be tweaked slightly, but I feel like the only virtue some of my friends are instilling in their children is obedience. How to I gently foster obedience, and what would such obedience look like? What role does original sin play in our children? How do we need to defend them from the influence of the devil? Can we do this gently without controlling them?

I am looking at the Sacrament of Reconciliation as my example. The Church gives us this Sacrament to help us improve our lives, not to force us to stop sinning. Our Mother Church knows better than to try to control us. Is there something different about children that makes them need to be controlled? If original sin is something that makes us need to take away our children's free will, why don't we take away the free will of adults as well? Or should we tell children and adults alike to "go and sin no more" and then lovingly invite them back to the Good Shepherd's fold when they wander?

[Magelet]

I'm not a catholic and don't beleive in original sin, however, it seems to be that the best way to foster "obeidiance" would be by respecting the child, and teaching the child to respect you. It wouldn't be true obeidiance, but if you can teach your children to respect you and your needs, and respect that they need to help around the house and respect your concerns of their behavior, it seems to me that you will have a much better relationship as they get older, AND one that will probably look more like "obeidiance" than your friends who are raising their children to be obeidiance, because most of those children will probably rebel in some way from the lack of respect. By respecting your children, you encourage them to respect you.

just my two cents

[JMJ]

Thanks for the thought. Yeah, I am wondering what the obedience would look like. I try not to make a lot of demands on my DD, but the times that I do make demands, I enforce them. For example, if I tell her that she may not go running in the street, she may not go running in the street, even if I have to grab her and carry her away, kicking and screaming, and that's my discipline: to help her if she can't do it herself, and only on the things that matter. Some of my friends think that I should be able to tell my toddler to come away from the street, and she should do it with no help. I guess the obedience that I'm going for would look more like, "If Mom says to do something, it's probably important" while many of my friends seem to be aiming for "If Mom says to do something, I'd better do it." I see it as the former likely leads to compliance while respecting free will and leads the child to make her own decision. The latter leads to compliance based on fear. Does that respect free will?

[Bluegoat]

I do have a thought about this. It is something that has been discussed in the Church with regard to children and original sin, but it is also discussed by Aristotle and other pagans such as the Stoics.

What they say is that in living a virtuous life, habit is half the battle, and one who develops bad habits as a child may never be able to reach her full potential as an adult. And children are not able to discern what habits are important, or develop them on their own - it requires both parental guidance and some parental control. "Yes, you must do your homework every night" "No, you can't watch the princess movie three times a day".

You ask if there is something different about children. Well, there is, they have immature brains. The Church does teach that there are natural orders of obedience in life. Children owe obedience to parents, parents to the state, and to God, and perhaps to other people, and so on. Obedience as an adult is generally a (somewhat) free choice, based on a recognition that obedience is owed. But with kids, they may not be able to understand that, and they may rebel against it even when they do. Adults may too, but as parents, it is part of our job to deal with that rebellion in our kids.

For small kids, their relationship with their parents is the first example to them of what their relationship with God should be like. That is the experience they will draw on. God is infinitely merciful, but he isn't all softness and light - he demands obedience to truth whether we like it or not, and there can be real consequences for rebellion. So how to model this for our kids is the question. Abraham is always considered the best model of the kind of obedience we owe God, and he doesn't ask to know God's rationell. I think it is usually best to explain things to kids, but I don't think it always is.

[bluebirdiemama]

I agree with you, JMJ, and I agree with Bluegoat. I try to guide my kids, and let them make their own decisions when they insist. It seems like they see the consequences pretty quickly when they choose to do something I have advised against (my 3yo mainly). So, just respecting them and trying to guide them the best that I can has been working nicely for us.
I do think that there is a difference between discipline and punishment, which I think is mainly in the attitude and intent of the parent administering. We do not punish our kids. We do discipline them. What that means to me, is that when I flat out tell my ds to do something (or not do it), and he doesn't listen to me out of choice (not forgetfulness, immaturity, etc) he is disciplined for his action. Example, he throws the toy, I ask him to stop throwing, he throws, I take it away.

The point that you bring up, JMJ, about original sin, and it playing into our parenting, is very interesting. Because all my thoughts in the last paragraph are, IMO, probably similar to the thoughts of any parent. But I don't think they address the issue of original sin.
Because, due to our sinful nature, there will be times when we don't care if the toy was taken away. Or how many more toys will be taken away.
...very interesting.
I look forward to reading responses from others.

[rlmueller]

Originally Posted by JMJ

I'm Catholic, and my Catholic friends and many Catholics I hear seem to think that the kind of loving guidance (to use a LLL term... Even though they're not religious now, remember that they were started by Catholic women) that I am referring to completely ignores or at least does not give enough weight to original sin. I do really want to conform my will to Church teaching, but I don't think that my ideas our outside of the bounds of Catholic teaching.

I'm not following this train of thought. How should you give due weight to original sin? Please explain if you could.

Your mothering sounds as in line with the bible as any could be. As I understand original sin like a disease or a genetic defect we have inhereited down from Adam--always present in infants and adults alike. There is no avoiding original sin but we mothers through the Grace of God parent our children, guide, discipline to mold them as God would have us mold them.

[JMJ]

rlmueller, I think that the line of reasoning is similar to what Bluegoat explained, though some of my friends go much further. One of my friends explains to me that all people (children included) will naturally tend toward what is evil, self-serving, slothful, satisfying the desires of the flesh, and it is the duty of parents to help (force) them into better habits by never allowing them them to make an unpunished mistake, using spanking, systematic positive and negative reinforcement, and any other means necessary. They want to teach their children that their time is not their own but is to be used in the service of others. Therefore, they have no toys, they schedule every hour of the day, and if their children finish an assignment early, they are to ask what else they can do to help. Certainly this is a virtuous way of living. Compliance is met with points towards a reward (When enough points are earned, the family does something fun, and the person with the most points gets to choose.), and defiance is met with a wooden spoon.

This friend is arguing that if you allow children to make mistakes (meaning not punish them if they do make mistakes or at least not stop them from doing it), rather than experiencing the natural consequences of their actions (possibly with some explanation from an adult since children (and adults) don't always understand how their actions affect other people or even how they are hurting themselves) and learning from them, children will tend toward these immoral actions. To use Bluegoat's example, if you let your child watch the princess movie 3 times a day, she will always watch it 3 times a day and will become slothful. She will not grow tired of the princess movie and of watching movies in general and wish to do something more productive with her life.

This same friend also wants her children to practice (blind) obedience when they are young to develop it as a habit for later so that they are not trying to break bad habits later. She understands that her children are doing this out of fear, not love, but she is hoping that fear of them will create fear of God and hopefully eventually, love of God and love of them, and when they begin to be motivated by love, they will already be so used to doing the right thing and won't have any baggage from doing the wrong thing.

I guess, in a lot of ways, this makes sense, but I am really uncomfortable with it. Is it ethical to take that much control over children's lives? Is it ethical to hit children (or even to manipulate them) in order to elicit compliance? Will children actually tend toward evil or is there a natural law that will be a constant pull in their lives? Is my job to beat the devil out of them or to open their eyes to the beautiful natural order of the way God created the world to be? Does original sin mean that they'll make mistakes along the way or that they'll go straight to hell if left to their own devices? How can I help them form good habits? Is there another way besides taking control of their lives? If children have the duty to obey their parents, do parents have the duty to force obedience or just to ask for it? Is that kind of power ethical? If you take that power, how do you keep from being corupted by it? God allows us to stray while gently calling us back. Was the father of the prodigal son wrong to give his son his share of the inheritance? He did some pretty bad stuff with it... but he came back. How to I foster obedience? The whole point of this thread is a personal attempt to allign my will with the Will of God. Is leading by example, making a habit myself of double checking my will against the teachings of the Church and showing this to my children enough? Is it what is best?

Bluegoat, I am interested in the discussion in the Church and Aristotle and the stoics that you are referring to. If my ideas and conclusions have been reached in error, it is because I have heard very little from Catholic sources. Most of the parenting books I have read have been modern and secular. I'm sure they all contain a part of the truth, but I know that hearing only the wrong parts of the truth is very dangerous becase the devil can twist the pieces of truth around to tell a lie. The souls of my children are very important to me, and I want to find the best way to lead them to God. I've heard from many of the secular sources. Now, I'd really like to take a closer look to check my ideas against the wise teaching of our Holy Mother Church.

[Bluegoat]

Have you looked at either Dr Sears guide to raising Christian children, or Grace Based Parenting? I think you might find them helpful.

It sounds to me like your friends might be going too far in the other direction to me, so that they will actually stunt the qualities they hope to instill.

[Arduinna]

I have a 20 year old daughter that I raised very similiarly to what you describe in the OP. My goal was never obedience either, to me full time blind obedience is very dangerous for children and adults. What happens when those giving the orders are telling her to do things that are detrimental to her health and safety. Our children are not going to always live under our direct supervision, they grow up and go out into the world and IMO we owe it to them to give then a firm foundation of values and an understanding of why those values are important that way they can stand firm against those that give bad advice or set bad examples. I also think that setting the example of listening to them, and considering their needs and motivations and allowing them to make age appropriate decisions gives them a safe place to learn responsiblity and the consequences of their actions.

I am really happy with the results of my parenting decision because my daughter is a thoughtful, considerate member of society and I've always gotten compliments on her behavior. But she is who she is not because of fear of punishment or blind obedience but because she was given the tools to learn how to make thoughtful decisions and was treated with respect. As a result, she is dating someone that also treats her respectfully, as that is what she was modeled.

[JMJ]

Bluegoat, I'll have to look into those books. Arduinna, thanks for the affirmation. Did you raise her with faith? Did she retain that faith? I have many fears for my friends and some of the ideas they're getting into. They're following someone who claims that he is getting all his ideas on child rearing from religious sources and claims that anything else is newfangled and doesn't work. The only things that she can say against my ideas is that I underestimate the power of original sin. Maybe that's a missing piece of my philosophy. How do I keep original sin at bay? I'd love to hear more ideas on how to assist my children in developing good habits and what proper obedience looks like.

[Lollybrat]

I highly recommend the book "Parenting with Grace: Catholic Parent's Guide to Raising (almost) Perfect Kids" by Greg & Lisa Popcak. I think you will find in it some of the guidance you are looking for. It has a very attachment parenting / gentle discipline approach and focuses on the importance of training a child's will rather than breaking his/her will.

Here's a quote from the introduction:

Catholics think of the Church as our Mother, and we are called to parent our children like she parents us. This is one of the things the Holy Father mean when he calls the family the "domestic church" (Familiaris Consorto, "On the Family"). So, what parenting tips can "Mom" offer us? First, through the family meal she prepares for us (Eucharist) we learn that God is a hands-on parent. Any time we call upon Him, He takes time out of the busiest schedule in the universe to be there, Body, Soul, and Divinity. Definitely a strong argument for quantity-time parenting.

The second most obvious lesson can be found in the Sacrament of reconciliation. On the one hand, Mom (the Church) has very high expectations for our behavior; on the other hand, when we fail, she is an extremely gentle disciplinarian. In fact, she never wastes time coming up with creative punishments. Taking her cue from the parable of the prodigal son, her entire discipline strategy consists of strengthening our relationship with the Father so that we will never want to leave home again. Remember, the whole point of those "five Hail Marys" penances is not to punish us (it would be a pretty stupid punishment if it was). Rather, it is an invitation to spend some time seated in the lap of our Mother, before our Heavenly Father, who showers us with a love so profound that we cannot help but be made better by it. Catholic parents are called to do no less for our own children.

More info at: http://www.exceptionalmarriages.com/book2.htm

[JMJ]

Thanks. I've heard some good things about Popcak, but the local library only has one of his books about marriage. That one sounds good enough that I might have to buy it.

[rlmueller]

Holy Crow!

JMJ--REALLY! Very foreign to me that style of parenting. Most especially because I assume RCC advocates classical education and that type of parenting flies in the face of fostering critical thinking.

Even if: I think that the line of reasoning is similar to what Bluegoat explained, though some of my friends go much further. One of my friends explains to me that all people (children included) will naturally tend toward what is evil, self-serving, slothful, satisfying the desires of the flesh,...

were true I don't see how it justifies parenting through fear of reprisal.

I guess I'm too simple minded. I want to parent the way God parents me.

Lollybrat: I totally want to pick up that book. I've heard God spoken of as a loving guiding and gentle disciplining Father, but not the church as Mother in those terms.

Oh yeah--if,Therefore, they have no toys...
Then I don't get my fun stuff and hubby can't have his fun stuff either. That would so not go over well.

Thanks for the learnin' ladies!

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by rlmueller

JMJ--REALLY! Very foreign to me that style of parenting. Most especially because I assume RCC advocates classical education and that type of parenting flies in the face of fostering critical thinking.

Interestingly enough, the guy they're following thinks that he has the "real" classical education, and thinks that what is being billed today as "classical education" really is not. See for yourself at http://www.classicalliberalarts.com/ There's not much objectionable unless you get on the forum, but here's one of his admissions requirements:

3. Parental Discipline
As God did not intend for children to grow without the graces of the Church's sacraments, he also did not intend for children to learn without parental discipline and motivation. We must remember that the books of Proverbs and Sirach are filled with parental commands for children to seek wisdom and instruction, but included throughout these books are exhortations for parents to discipline their children to promote this.

"He who spoils his son will bind up his wounds, and his feelings will be troubled at every cry. A horse that is untamed turns out to be stubborn, and a son unrestrained turns out to be willfull. Pamper a child, and he will frighten you; play with him, and he will give you grief. Do not laugh with him, lest you have sorrow with him, and in the end you will gnash your teeth. Give him no authority in his youth, and do not ignore his errors. Bow down his neck in his youth, and beat his sides while he is young, lest he become stubborn and disobey you, and you have sorrow of soul from him. Discipline your son and take pains with him, that you may not be offended by his shamelessness."

Parents must be willing to create and maintain a system of rewards for their children for good behavior and of punishments for bad behavior to lead them along the path to wisdom and goodness.

Those who oppose such traditional views of parental discipline (and there are some) should realize that even the laws of the United States leave to parents and guardians the right to chastise their children. To hold an opinion, then, that contradicts not only explicit directions of biblical wisdom literature, but also our own civil laws (which represent the mind of the majority of men) is to hold an opinion that should be questioned carefully.

Also, remember that "positive" methods of teaching, such as those employed by St. John Bosco, were employed with children that (a) were not his own, (b) were already full of bad habits and (c) were running wild in the streets. He is not to be used as a model for parental discipline or homeschooling, as he was serving a very different group of children than parents are, who receive their children from birth to be raised in the way of the Lord and kept from developing bad habits.

Originally Posted by rlmueller

I guess I'm too simple minded. I want to parent the way God parents me.

That is what makes sense to me as well, but as Bluegoat pointed out, God is both loving and stern, and it's easy to just focus on one or the other.

Originally Posted by rlmueller

Oh yeah--if,Therefore, they have no toys...
Then I don't get my fun stuff and hubby can't have his fun stuff either. That would so not go over well.!

At least they are not being hypocritical about this. They are all living with very little. I would have a really hard time being as cheerful and helpful as they are asking their children to be. Still, as an adult, my joy comes in cooking and spending time with people. Technically, that involves no toys (unless you count my dishes). Until children are able to participate productively and safely with real knives and a real stove, they can safely experiment with toys, and if you really want to keep them from playing, you're going to have to take away all the grass, pine cones, and even dirt! God gave us toys all over the place, and children are so creative.

[rlmueller]

And if you've looked in the babies thread--Poop for play.

We are animals (Fauna in the Flora and Fauna way of things) and God created them there baby animals to learn how to be adult animals through play. Just the nature of things I suppose. Again--a simple minded concept thought from me.

-*That is what makes sense to me as well, but as Bluegoat pointed out, God is both loving and stern, and it's easy to just focus on one or the other.*-

And so am I, but not controlling--it makes no sense to me.

Learning much from Bluegoat.

[bluebirdiemama]

"He who spoils his son will bind up his wounds, and his feelings will be troubled at every cry. A horse that is untamed turns out to be stubborn, and a son unrestrained turns out to be willfull. Pamper a child, and he will frighten you; play with him, and he will give you grief. Do not laugh with him, lest you have sorrow with him, and in the end you will gnash your teeth. Give him no authority in his youth, and do not ignore his errors. Bow down his neck in his youth, and beat his sides while he is young, lest he become stubborn and disobey you, and you have sorrow of soul from him. Discipline your son and take pains with him, that you may not be offended by his shamelessness."

This does not sound like God to me.

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by bluebirdiemama

"He who spoils his son will bind up his wounds, and his feelings will be troubled at every cry. A horse that is untamed turns out to be stubborn, and a son unrestrained turns out to be willfull. Pamper a child, and he will frighten you; play with him, and he will give you grief. Do not laugh with him, lest you have sorrow with him, and in the end you will gnash your teeth. Give him no authority in his youth, and do not ignore his errors. Bow down his neck in his youth, and beat his sides while he is young, lest he become stubborn and disobey you, and you have sorrow of soul from him. Discipline your son and take pains with him, that you may not be offended by his shamelessness."

This does not sound like God to me.

It doesn't sound like God to me either? I just don't know how to understand some of the passages from Proverbs and Sirach, though. The above is from SIrach 30.

Hmmm... I read the same passage in my own Bible (NAB), and it does not sounds nearly as harsh. It sounds more like a warning not to leave your children to fend for their own upbringings or to indulge your children's frivolous desires.

Sirach 30:7

He who spoils his son will have wounds to bandage, and will quake inwardly at every cry.

The above quote makes it sound like bandaging your son's wounds is spoiling. This is more about the pain that is caused to the parents by spoiling children.

30:8

A colt untamed turns out stubborn; a son left to himself grows up unruly.

This seems like a real difference in translation. I wonder about the original. There's a real difference between leaving a child to himself and not restraining a child. I can see a real problem with the former, but I think that it is guidance that is needed more than restraint.

30:9

Pamper your child and he will be a terror for you, indulge him and he will bring you grief.

There's a real difference between indulging and playing with a child. This translation actually even hits on another idea that I've been bouncing around. Is it failing to control children that spoils them or is it giving them control over you? This seems to indicate that the latter is a problem at least. The above translation seems to indicate that the former is a problem.

30:10

Share not in his frivolity lest you share in his sorrow, when finally your teeth are clenched in remorse.

Again, there's a big difference between laughing with someone and engaging in frivolity. Laughing serves an important purpose.

30:11

Give him not his own way in his youth, and close not your eyes to his follies.

I think in both translations, this is very much like God. We can pray and ask him for what we desire, but he does not necessarily give it to us, and he certainly is not blind to our sins.

30:12

Bend him to the yoke when he is young, thrash his sides while he is still small, lest he become stubborn, disobey you, and leave you disconsolate.

This, I have a hard time understanding. It's obviously an analogy to the generally accepted means of training horses, but it's unclear how literally this analogy should be followed. Certainly, Sirach is not advocating putting children in a yoke and harness. Maybe it is just an exhortation to guide children in the ways that will lead them to follow, not advice to treat them like cattle.

30:13

Discipline your son, make heavy his yoke, lest his folly humiliate you.

I guess this hits the heart of it. How do you "make heavy his yoke" appropriately? Are you really supposed to be a burden to your children? Are you supposed to have high expectations of them? Are you supposed to make things difficult for them? Are you supposed to challenge them? Are you supposed to encourage them to reach new heights? Are you supposed to be constantly working with them to develop virtues?

[MissinNYC]

What role does original sin play in our children? How do we need to defend them from the influence of the devil? Can we do this gently without controlling them?

I think the impact of original sin, or if you want to just call it our human sinful nature, is that all people are depraved. And no part of us is untouched by this. Meaning that our emotions, our intellect, our rationality, our hearts, our desires, all of them have an ability and a tendency towards sin. However through Jesus we can act out of the Holy Spirit and do good things and act kindly and all that.

So for me this means that when I see my child have a desire which is sinful (selfish, thoughtless, unloving, disobedient) I try to discipline the child. This can be done gently, of course, but must be done, IMO. In whatever way you choose, you must teach the child to obey, because it's clear in the Bible that a child left to his own sinful desires (and children are no more sinful than adults, of course) will come to a bad end. And yes, God if loving, he is kind, he is gentle at times, etc. But throughout the bible, both the OT and NT, God is firm, he has firm boundaries, he has wrath and he discipline incredibly harshly sometimes. But when God disciplines His people it is only because He loves them and wants good for them. It is never out of vengeance or desire to harm His children, but to teach and instill proper values/behavior. Striking a perfect balance between the gentleness, and the firmness and the pain (emotional pain, such as losing a favorite toy or whatever) is our task (which is of course impossible!).

[MissinNYC]

Are you really supposed to be a burden to your children? Are you supposed to have high expectations of them? Are you supposed to make things difficult for them? Are you supposed to challenge them? Are you supposed to encourage them to reach new heights? Are you supposed to be constantly working with them to develop virtues?

Yes, yes, and yes. I think all of the above is true. I see that burden as a yoke of responsibility and high expectations, which enable a child to thrive and bloom into responsibility. I have seen my oldest child really blossom when given a lot of jobs and responsibility in the family, which enables her to have more privilege and to become (eventually) a Godly woman.

[JMJ]

Thanks for the food for thought, MissinNYC! It's a challenge to find the ballance between gentleness and firmness. Another question I had while thinking and praying about your ideas is to when do we have to provide consequences, and when does God do it for us? For adults, most of our sins are disciplined by God purely through natural consequences and for Catholics, through the sacrament of Reconciliation (which is healing, not punishment) and sometimes spiritual direction. Only in extreme cases does the state step in and punish. Aren't the same measures in place for children? Are parents there to add consequences to the natural consequences that already happen with a child's misdeeds, or are parents there mostly to guide and heal the child's soul through reconciliation and to prevent mistakes through spiritual direction?