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Original Sin - Page 2

post #21 of 30
Well, don't forget about the ultimate punishment we receive- Hell.

Quote:
But throughout the bible, both the OT and NT, God is firm, he has firm boundaries, he has wrath and he discipline incredibly harshly sometimes. But when God disciplines His people it is only because He loves them and wants good for them. It is never out of vengeance or desire to harm His children, but to teach and instill proper values/behavior.
post #22 of 30
Thread Starter 
I've been thinking a lot about this. It did really hit me when I was reading "Unconditional Parenting," and he referred to God as the ultimate "conditional parent" because of hell. I was always taught that heaven is the presence of God and hell is the absence of God, and where we go is really our choice, not something inflicted on us. We go to hell because God doesn't make us be with him if we don't want to. Mortal sin isn't just mortal sin because it's really bad. It's mortal sin because it is a deliberate rejection of God's grace, purposefully cutting off our relationship with a God who still loves us and calls to us, offering his grace if only we would accept his forgiveness. It is with a heavy heart that he allows us to choose hell.

Should we also allow our children to do things that we know are not in their best interests when we warn them of the consequences and try to convince them to choose another course?
post #23 of 30
I have to second the Popcak book. I love it! He really explains how gentle discipline is totally in line with Catholic theology.
And yes, hell is the absence/total rejection of God.
I think using natural consequences whenever possible is a good thing. My ds has a very difficult to teach personality and seems only to learn the hard way. If I can warn him of the consequneces and then allow him to suffer them he always learns better than if I just tell him or try to give him consequences. When the consequences come from me he just gets very angry and resents me. Of course, there are times when he would not experience or recognize the natural consequences so I must give him conseqeunces anyways and be hated. And of course I'm not going to let him run in the street and face the consequence of being hit by a car! Until a certain age there are some consequences we do protect them from. However, if as a teenager, they break the law, I will tell the police to prosecute--at that point protecting them from the consequences would not be doing them any favors.
Being both gentle and firm is like walking a tightrope. I pray for the grace not to loose it every day!
post #24 of 30

healthy function conscience and character development

Hi, I am always considering this topic...enjoying the thread.
Not Catholic, but I do love the Lord and try to follow his lead in my parenting based on the principles I have seen in the Bible as well as my personal experience with the Lord.
Anyway, whoever brought up habits...I have been focusing on molding her character because once they pass the toddler stage I think their character is well on the way to being whatever it is. I do all the things 'most' moms do to teach her healthy habits and also socially acceptable habits, which I am big on. I want her to be a socially well adjusted person.
What I am doing is talking a lot about how her behavior is effecting those around her, be it positive or negative. So sometimes I don't 'make' her be a certain way, rather I point out things like, oh, look at Sammie's face, she is so sad because she didn't get a turn with the toy. Also, how it is important to be sweet, make friends, etc. I point out that when you are mean people don't want to play with someone who is being mean. I have even said people don't like mean people. She's almost three.
Basically I am trying to get her conscience to function. I think that many people today have desensitized conscience. I want her to begin to feel bad when she is in the wrong. And I also show her how to make things right.
The reason I follow the Lord is because I have experienced His love. I believe the Lord's motivation for what ever he allows in our life is love. His discipline is motivated by His love for us.
I love natural consequences, but if that doesn't happen I step in with something. I believe the Lord withholds things from us and even may withhold His presence as a discipline. So, mostly I try to show her lots of love so that when I have to withhold something it won't shatter our relationship.
For example, she wont get in her car seat. I used to pick her up and put her in, but now I cannot lift her (medical reason). So I ask her to please cooperate and to remember that mama does many special things for her. Now mama needs you to do something for me. If you don't cooperate, you will miss out on some of the special things you get to do, like push button for the garage door.
Bedtime issues, refusing to brush teeth, put on pjs. So I remind her that mama makes bedtime fun and special by playing tooth brushing games and reading books and singing, etc. When you don't cooperate and mama has to spend lots of time getting your pjs on that takes away the time for special things we do at bedtime.
Well, praise the Lord this has been working! She is cooperating. It's a lot of work explaining it all but I think that she is getting the idea that this relationship is a two way street and her behavior determines what mama is willing/able to give/do for her.
For clarification sake: I don't think that if I do xyz then God will give me abc. Likewise, I am not trying to teach dd that if she does xyz then I will do abc. I am trying to cause her to see this two way relationship and how her behavior causes certain outcome.
I do think that if I am straying away from the Lord, being disobedient, then the Lord may allow something to occur in my environment which will cause me to call on His Name and return to Him. Our God is a jealous God...jealous in a good way, meaning that He loves us and is jealous enough to allow certain things in our environment to draw us back to Him, to depend on Him, and for Him to be our first/best love.
I do think that character development and helping their conscience to function is key. They are little vessels to contain the Lord one day and while they are little we have to preserve and prepare their vessel so that they will be useful to the Lord's move here on the earth. When they are teenagers they have to know that God sees everything and have a healthy practice of confessing their sins to the Lord and asking for forgiveness. This will help keep them for the Lord's sake.
To understand original sin you have to first see it and believe that it exists. There are many who believe that people are inherently 'good' but just have failures. I hope to help dd know that she is sinful and to make things right with God and with man every day. Keep a short account if you understand my meaning. Once she knows how sinful she is, then she will see her need for God and His mercy and His saving grace.
My parents don't think they need God because they are so darn good. They don't see their sinful nature. This is a real problem for some people. They may never turn to God because they are so darn good.
For me, the longer I'm with the Lord the worse I seem. I am seeing fault after fault that needs to be dealt with and confessed. All believers are in a process of transformation so He is our real hope of glory! Paul says He is the treasure in our earthen vessels.
Whoa, this was way longer than I planned.
post #25 of 30
I had always been taught (in parochial school) that Baptism washed away the stain of Original Sin. This seems to back me up http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea5.asp
post #26 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzywan View Post
I had always been taught (in parochial school) that Baptism washed away the stain of Original Sin. This seems to back me up http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea5.asp
This is a good point to bring up. What you are calling original sin, I call the sin nature. It's what we all inherited from Adam. We commit sins daily because we have this sin nature dwelling in our flesh.

When Jesus died on the cross He did terminate, the sin nature (original sin), sins which we commit, the old man, the world, and Satan. All these negative things were dealt with on the cross. Praise the Lord!

However....
We do still sin, which is what I think the OP is concerned about with raising her child according to the Bible and God. So, all these sins we commit need to be confessed regularly so that our conscience is clean before God and man. We need to regularly ask God for forgiveness and take care of any offenses between us and another believer. This will help us grow spiritually.

A good little analogy is a car window. Every bug that hits the car window is a sin. Over time your window gets so dirty with bugs that you cannot see God or His light through the window. When you confess your sins regularly, you keep your window clean, thus enabling God's light to shine on you and enlighten you. Your conscience stay clean. This is one way which will help us grow spiritually. Along with a healthy habit of confession is a healthy diet of the Word. Eating spiritual food helps us grow.

OP. Another thing that helped me is to remember that we just need to be patterns for our little ones to follow. If they see us loving the Lord and reading His Word and doing healthy things, all we can do is pray that they follow us.
post #27 of 30
I can't do the quote thingy so I just pasted some of your OP here.

JMJ said,
"In all I'm reading and researching, I'm really leaning towards a method of discipline based on respect for the child's will and actions rather than control. I understand that there are times that for the child's safety or the good of the community or family, that sometimes the child's will has to be thwarted, but in those cases, I would deal with it by affirming the child's desires, explaining why the action was unwise, and offering or brainstorming a better solution rather than punishing. In things that won't hurt her or somebody else or cause significant inconvenience or waste, though, I pretty much let her make her own decisions, and even in those cases, I try to give her the chance to make the right decision on her own. Punishment is not involved. If it's something that I'm not going to let her do it, I just don't let her do it. If it's something she can't have, I just don't give it to her. If she wants to scream about it, she can scream about it.

She'll slowly learn to make her own decisions, and it really allows her to shine, making some wonderful decisions to be helpful by mimicing me or making sure her needs are met. She's a beautiful, creative, cheerful, loving toddler, and I want my time to be spent fostering virtues rather than focusing on all she shouldn't be doing.

I'm Catholic, and my Catholic friends and many Catholics I hear seem to think that the kind of loving guidance (to use a LLL term... Even though they're not religious now, remember that they were started by Catholic women) that I am referring to completely ignores or at least does not give enough weight to original sin. I do really want to conform my will to Church teaching, but I don't think that my ideas our outside of the bounds of Catholic teaching."

I think you sound like a wonderful mom. How exactly do your friends "deal" with original sin? It's the sin nature in all of us, right? I gather it has to do with making the child obedient. I don't think that by giving a child choices and chances to make decisions will hinder their obedience. I think, and I'm def. no expert, that obedience comes from you following through with your word and being consistent. For example, you say, no you may not have that cookie. You have to stand by your word. If you give in to the begging then your word means squat and there is no reason for the child to accept and obey the boundary.
Really we want to give our children boundaries and stick to it. If you move the boundary line then they lose the confidence in your ablility to guide them. Consequently, they stop obeying you because your boundaries move.
I think boundaries and obeying are linked this way.
Giving your child choices is a good thing. It builds character and confidence in their ability to navigate life.

OK, say my child took someone's toy, made them cry and then would not apologize. I usually ask my child to help make the child feel better rather than forcing apologies. If she doesn't want to apologize or make the situation better, I have her sit with me to calm down and think about it. I also talk to her at that point about the importance of taking care of others. Usually she will either give the toy back or apologize. I don't make her do it. If she doesn't do it and she continues to hurt others, I take her outta there and explain that she is not allowed to hurt others so we have to leave. Maybe by virtue of leaving I am 'forcing' her to make ammends, but I think she needs to learn cause and effect. Her behavior causes others to hurt and mama takes her home. This is a boundary that I set and stick to it. Yes, she is obeying the boundary so to speak.
Hope I'm making sense.

Today at Starbucks my kid was hogging both little chairs and not giving one of them to the other kid. The other kid was mad/sad which I pointed out to her and suggested to help the other kid feel better by giving up one of the chairs. Well, she said no. I said, not fair of you to hog both chairs is it? what if you didn't have a chair. At that point the other kid jumped up and took my kids toy! I thought, awesome. So I suggested they trade the toy for the chair. NOPE neither one wanted to do it. So, I said no problem, then your both even steven!
I suppose I could have 'made her obey' but in this instance I felt like a life lesson could be learned better by a natural consequence between the two toddlers.
BTW I read UP as well, and did take away the matter of respect and choices, but I think there is a part of UP philosophy that I can't get with because of my belief system.
post #28 of 30
Oh I agree that even after Baptism we still have a base nature that impels us to sin. However, I would think that young children, between infancy (when Baptism would occur) and the Age of Reason (around 7, when we are given the Sacrament of Confession) are in a state of grace where they can develop their brains and get a feel for the world around them without fear of condemnation. With scientific inquiry we have learned that young childrens' defiance is a normal developmental stage. They push boundries in order to locate them, not to be "naughty".
post #29 of 30
And one more thing - I will never teach my children to have blind obedience to authority. We have God-given brains, logic, and consciences for a reason! I can only think of those poor children who listened to their priests and had horrors visited upon them. It gives me nightmares.

God is the ultimate authority and some of our greatest saints had doubts and questions. I believe those doubts and questions are what made them so great, but YMMV.
post #30 of 30
I'm curious to know how your friends children are- are they happy kids? are they obedient? does she have to spend a lot of time disciplining them with the wooden spoon? what are the ages? does she "discipline" in a state of anger or in a state of calm? is there joy in the house or must misery?

I guess what I want to know is, does it seem to work for her and her family?
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