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Really Confused and Losing It....Please Help

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
I have read Love and Logic parenting, Unconditional Parenting, Nanny 911, ScreamFree Parenting, and more. I am so confused. I really liked many aspects of Love and Logic, such as natural consequences, but was turned off by locking them in their room. I really like unconditional parenting and a lot of the negatives of rewards and punishments made sense, but there was no practical information on what to do when they don't listen.
So here I am confused and stressed out because my daughter keeps screaming, whining, and not listening. I say "what" when she whines and make her repeat it, which sometimes helps, but the screaming and not listening at all I can't stand.
We are thinking of having another child and really want one, but can't handle this. I have seen many parents with their children who listen. They will ask them nicely to go brush their teeth and they will. They don't whine, drag on, go off and play, etc...they go brush their teeth. I am so tired of everything being such an issue. I want to take her more places and do more things but can't do it like this.
Please help. I need something that works. I need clear cut consequences that will work. Please help.
post #2 of 17
How old is your DD? That will affect my recommendations
post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 
She is 4 Years old and a single child.
post #4 of 17
I took what worked for me from each book and put it together into something that I felt I could do. When my dd was little we would go places but leave if she wasn't behaving very well or listening well. When I asked her to do something at home I would offer to help her do do it, I rarely had to actually follow through with that after the first few times.

Along with that though I found that what really helped my dd to listen was me listening to her and acknowledging her feelings and desires. Even if I didn't go along with them she still has always been much more willing to do what I want her to do if I acknowledge what she is saying (or seems to be wanting) and tell her why I need her to do what I am telling her to do or to stop doing what I am telling her to stop. Compromise is also important for us because there are some things that I want her to do because I am being arbitrary and want an easy life. When she sees that I am willing to compromise on some things she is also more willing to do the same, I think it is because she feels more control over her life and she doesn't feel the need to fight me for control. Conversation and compromise are the biggest things that I do as a mom. They aren't always easy even after so many years of practice, but they come easier the older dd gets and the more I use them.
post #5 of 17
Kids are usually listening, they're just choosing to do something else So rather than viewing it as a problem of listening/needing consequences, do something. Focus on the things that are important-she needs to bathe, brush her teeth, be safe-things like that. If you say it's time to brush teeth and she just sits, get up and go over to her, perhaps "race" to the bathroom, carry her like a sack of potatoes, etc. Playful Parenting is a good book for this age, it gives suggestions like the one I gave. 4 is a rough age still IMO and don't worry about what other's kids do b/c their family may have the same issues you do.
post #6 of 17
Thread Starter 
The hard part is that I do try to validate her feelings, and help her express what she is feeling but she will still scream. I will say things like "are you sad that Daddy left and you wanted to give him a hug?" and she will still scream. I then try to say things like "it's fun to have Daddy here, and we love having him here", but nothing. And this is afer she has given Daddy 2 hugs already or he waits and tried to hug her but she won't hug him then after he has tried 15 times to hug her and had to leave she screams and throws a fit. She even does this with her friend. When it's time to leave I will ask her if she wants to give the little girla hug and she will just stand there. The little girl will wait, and still no hug. Then the little girl turns to go home and my duaghter screams/cries and the little girl comes back but then my daughter still won't hug her, then the girl leaves for good and my daughter screams/cries. She wants a million tries and never wants to do it.
It has gotten so bad that family members don't want to go on vacation with us and grandparents don't really want to watch her. She is so demanding and gets so upset when she can't have things exactly how she wants them. And even if you try to give her what she wants, a new thing will pop up afterwards. Such as going to bed, she will need x, and if you give x, she needs y. And even if you get to the last thing you won't be able to do it right. It is so frustrating.
post #7 of 17
Have you read raising the spirited child?

I know just what you are saying. My son sounds a lot like your daughter! He does the refusing to do something and then crying/screaming about it thing too. We just no longer give him more than chance with it. I feel bad but I don't know what else to do either! He seems to be mostly out growing this now thankfully. It is so hard, because I know I felt like we are trying so hard to give him an option that he wants but he just will NOT do it!

It is so hard but you just have to stay consistent, strong and firm and not give into the screaming/crying. (which i know is hard because my son can scream/cry for such a long time about something!!!)
post #8 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeingMe View Post
I really like unconditional parenting and a lot of the negatives of rewards and punishments made sense, but there was no practical information on what to do when they don't listen.
For that age, there are two books I'd recommend if you want concrete "what to do" type info.
Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf is one. I think it says for age 4 and up, but I was able to use some ideas with ds1 when he was 3. Some of the stuff is a little harsh for my taste, but I just took what I liked. There are no threats, punishments, etc.
Fwiw, I really really disliked Love and Logic. I thought it was awful.

The other book is Becoming The Parent You Want to Be. This is aimed at kids up to 5yo. I found it more useful for toddler age, but you most likely would find something helpful in it. Definitely worth getting it from the library. And you don't have to read the whole thing. There are a few chapters that deal with behavior, so if that's all you are interested in, just read those.
post #9 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by astra View Post
Have you read raising the spirited child?
That's what I was going to ask. I think it's Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Kurcinka. Her book Kids, Parents and Power Struggles is also very good and has practical advice.
post #10 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by astra View Post
I know just what you are saying. My son sounds a lot like your daughter! He does the refusing to do something and then crying/screaming about it thing too. We just no longer give him more than chance with it. I feel bad but I don't know what else to do either! He seems to be mostly out growing this now thankfully. It is so hard, because I know I felt like we are trying so hard to give him an option that he wants but he just will NOT do it!

It is so hard but you just have to stay consistent, strong and firm and not give into the screaming/crying. (which i know is hard because my son can scream/cry for such a long time about something!!!)
I agree with this. A time this has come up with each of my kids (3yo and 5yo) is the bedtime routine. At about 2-3 years old (which is now, for the second kid!) he started stretching out bedtime, coming up with stuff he needed before bed, books he wants to read, things he needs to turn the light on to see, etc. After going through that with ds1, I learned I have to just do a few things and then deny the rest, and then I insist on quiet and stillness, or I have no time left for it and I go and check on him in a few minutes.

For your example, of wanting more and more chances to hug someone goodbye, I think you should give just a few tries and then wrap it up for her. Maybe with "OK, maybe you'll do a hello hug instead when you see him later". Or, "Well, Daddy can just blow you a hug!" he does that (whatever exactly that entails!) and he's out the door. Without too much consoling about the crying that follows. "You're a little sad that you didn't get a chance just now... there will be other chances.... (crying continues...) when you want to play a game, let me know." Maybe silence will help her get calm faster than actively trying to make her feel better.
post #11 of 17
A couple of things to think about:

I highly second Raising Your Spirited Child, the Secret of Parenting, and Becoming the Parent You Want to Be. I also love Mary Sheedy Kurcinka's Kids, Parents & Power Struggles, which is some ways is an updated version of her Raising Your Spirited Child. Nurture by Nature might give you some insights too.

Second, is she getting enough sleep? Overtired kids are not fun to be with. A lot of her behaviors sound like what we get when dd is overtired. Our dd has a tendency to whine, she definitely tantrums and has a hard time when the world does not go according to her plan. These behaviors are 10 times worse when she's tired or hungry.

Third, what are your reactions and feelings when she tantrums/screams/cries? Are you trying to stop her from doing this? If you think you have to fix this, that might be part of the problem.

I've got a spirited child, and I am a former spirited child myself. Tantrums/screaming are the result of feeling out of control. I felt things intensely and deeply and was so overwhelmed by emotions that I couldn't control myself. I didn't need someone to fix it, I needed someone to help me get through the big emotions.

Like with your daughter, validating our dd's feelings does sometimes lead to fresh outbreaks of crying. What I've learned, however, is that she needs this extra time to process the emotion. Thus, I no longer try to stop her. She needs to cry for far longer, sometimes, than I really like. But if she cries as much as she needs to, then suddenly, she's done and can move on.

However, validating her emotions and accepting them doesn't mean that I have to be there listening to her all the time. I'll offer a hug or a cuddle if I've got the reserves. If she goes past my energy to cope, or if she's in a perpetual whining cycle, I'll ask her to take it to her room. She's free to express these emotions as loudly as she likes. But she's not free to make everyone else's life miserable while she does it. Her room is the place for that. She's getting better at taking herself off there and having her tantrums in her room.

Have you read Althea Solter's Tears and Tantrums? Here's a little info about her ideas: http://www.awareparenting.com/tantrums.htm

My big aha moment in parenting came when I realized that I did not have to fix the tantrum, or even stop it. I just had to teach my child that it's OK to have powerful emotions and that mom/dad aren't scared by these emotions. I will certainly comfort my child, but I'm not going to try to stop them. I won't give in to X to stop the tears, because as you discovered, it's not about X, it's about needing to cry. So, when X is satisfied, Y becomes necessary...and then Z.

Fourth, she also sounds like she needs more boundaries/structure. My spirited child who whines and tantrums has difficulty self regulating. Thus she needs more structure from me. She needs to know what to expect, because her internal compass won't always be at the same place.

Does your dd have a daily routine? Kids who need more boundaries often do better with one.

Do you warn for transitions? My kids are 6 and 9 and still appreciate a few minutes warning for transitions. When dd is tired or stressed it's absolutely crucial. (Ds has always been more flexible.) My favorite parenting tool is the timer just for this purpose. "When the timer beeps, it's time to get ready/go/set the table..." It's a 'neutral' third party that warns us all.

It's also crucial for us to transition before our resources are spent. That does mean leaving when we're still having fun. But I've learned through painful experience that by the time we're no longer having fun, we also have no energy left to transition through the goodbyes/leaving/going home.

What do you do when she's dithering and wants to do something, but then can't bring herself to? Kids who can't make decisions often need help making them, or fewer of them to make.

I've found it helpful to set a limit. "In 1 minutes, it'll be time for Anna to go. You can give her a hug or you can just wave." When the minute is up, then it's "Oh, I guess no hug today. Bye Anna!" Will she cry? Yep. Will she live to tell the tale? Yep.

Finally, what kind of learner is she? I've got one child who learns well by watching and by us describing. He's my child who looks compliant. When we ask him to do something, by and large, he does it.

Dd learns better by doing. For her, I often need to gently guide her, especially if she's tired and or cranky. She and I were out at a meeting yesterday, and we came home just in time for chores. It was an 'easy' chore night in that it was garbage night. When dh told her to get a garbage can and bring it out, she declared "no!" and kept repeating it. I simply handed her a wastebasket, and told her that her job was to keep saying "no" as loudly as she could on the way to the garbage can. (That was a little Playful Parenting thrown in.)

If your daughter doesn't do things when you ask, you may need to gently guide her. Otherwise, what she's learning is that she doesn't have to do it until you get upset.
post #12 of 17
Sorry if this is way off base, but could nutrition play a part in her behavior? Some parents have noticed that if they give their kids fish oil supplements (I would highly recommend Nordic Naturals, although it is pricey), they notice a dramatic difference in their children behavior. I know fish oil has helped me a lot with depression, so it may be worth looking into it for children and the various benefits it can give them.
post #13 of 17
You might like Honey I Wrecked the Kids, but I see that your reading list is getting rather long ;-)

I felt the same about Parenting With Love & Logic. I think what I took from that is that children need practice being responsible and totally disregarded the stuff about time out. If I remember correctly the authors were in the education field and a lot of their reccommendations would make more sense for school-age children.

My DD also listens selectively. We try to structure, structure, structure to reduce the power struggles...let the routine be the boss or let the rule we decided on as a family be the boss. Getting the routines in place was tough but so worth it. For the bedtime routine we use books as a bribe. She knows she is entitled to three books from the get go. Anytime she wastes time, I tell her that for every minute she wastes of my time, she will lose a book. I never have to look at my watch for a full minute ;-) I have been 100% consistent with this and am rarely challenged. DH isn't always consistent and gets challenged all.the.time, until he snaps, and ironically DD loses way more books on his watch. I know this isn't very Unconditional Parenting of me but it WORKS .

For brushing teeth I sometimes tell her that eating fruit/sugar comes with the responsibility of brushing teeth properly. If she does not brush teeth that is fine but she can't have any fruit or sugar. That one is straight out of Honey I Wrecked the Kids. Have never actually had to enforce this (but I would ;-))

FWIW it definitely sounds like something is going on with your DD above and beyond the normal 4yo. My 3yo is really oppositional right now so I'm right with you!! My DD doesn't listen unless there are pretty clear consequences and then I hate the coercive environment. I'm working on cutting out the power struggles but we are both very strong willed and it is not an easy road. For screaming and whining I can tell you what does NOT work for me - consequences. I have tried all of them. The only thing that ever has done it is to acknowledge feelings and repeat her request in a polite form, then have her mimic me. In some cases I have felt that the screaming/whining was just her putting on a show, so I have really downplayed my reaction. I have also encouraged her to 'get over' some things by telling her I know how tough/brave/clever she is. Doesn't always work, but it really chilled her out about some things, like her fear of dogs. Once she knew that she wasn't going to get babied through it, she dealt with her emotions a lot better.
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeingMe View Post
The hard part is that I do try to validate her feelings, and help her express what she is feeling but she will still scream. I will say things like "are you sad that Daddy left and you wanted to give him a hug?" and she will still scream. I then try to say things like "it's fun to have Daddy here, and we love having him here", but nothing. And this is afer she has given Daddy 2 hugs already or he waits and tried to hug her but she won't hug him then after he has tried 15 times to hug her and had to leave she screams and throws a fit. She even does this with her friend. When it's time to leave I will ask her if she wants to give the little girla hug and she will just stand there. The little girl will wait, and still no hug. Then the little girl turns to go home and my duaghter screams/cries and the little girl comes back but then my daughter still won't hug her, then the girl leaves for good and my daughter screams/cries. She wants a million tries and never wants to do it.
It has gotten so bad that family members don't want to go on vacation with us and grandparents don't really want to watch her. She is so demanding and gets so upset when she can't have things exactly how she wants them. And even if you try to give her what she wants, a new thing will pop up afterwards. Such as going to bed, she will need x, and if you give x, she needs y. And even if you get to the last thing you won't be able to do it right. It is so frustrating.


This may sound harsh, particularly because this particular example is about hugging and I don't normally advocate withholding affection, but you are giving her too many chances.

If it is time to say goodbye and she wants to give a hug as a part of that, then she has to do it when she has a chance. If she opts not to do it, that's fine. The natural consequence to that, though, is that is she chooses not to hug a person when she has the chance and then they leave - well, you don't get a hug. Your DH shouldn't try to hug her 15 times nor should the other little girl have to wait for a hug, then start to leave then come back because your daughter is screaming. All of that is really a power play and she is clearly winning. In this instance, I would give her the one chance - "OK, your friend (or daddy) is leaving, if you want to give her a hug, now is the time to give her a hug". If she gives her a hug, great. If she doesn't, the friend leaves. Your DD will probably scream, but if the hug is important to her, the next time (or it make take a few times) she will give the hug at the appropriate time.
post #15 of 17
My DD is only 20 months, but has started to some of this. Mostly it is about stuff. "I want my juice/baby/water/ball etc. When i give it to her she says she doesn't want it and has a fit. Then if I put it somewhere (usually nearby where she can get it) she starts screaming "i want my juice/baby/water/ball" We live by the rule of threes, which also works well with practicing counting. She gets three chances to have/do something, or i count to three when I need her to do something, or however it can apply to the situation it will be about "the magic number 3" If after three times of me trying to give her something she says she wants she is still upset then I leave it where she can get it and walk away, nicely, not in a huff. I tell her it is there if she wants it or she can come join mommy in doing xyz. If I need her to do something (brush her teeth, lay down for nap/bedtime, etc.) and she won't do ti I count to three. If she doesn't do it by 3 I help her. This actually usually turns into a really playful thing with us, she takes it as a challenge either to get it done at the last possible minute or for me to come chase her. We also do this thing where I "walk" her to say the bathroom to brush her teeth and I chant "walk, walk, walk," as we go. She thinks its hilarious. I didn't start out a playful parent but she has totally converted me, its just her nature and it works many times. Anyways, I am sure it gets more difficult as they get older, but as fun as my girl is she is VERY willful and determined in having her own way so we hit some of this stuff early. She's been early with a lot of things. She thinks she's 5. I find that really trying to be resonable and stick to what I asked, but being nonchalant and playful about it helps. She is entitled to tantrum and express her emotions the only way she knows how. I am entitled to let her have at it, but not feed into it or try to engage an irrational and upset being. How rational are we as adults when we are upset and crying. Sometimes its best to just let them be and experience and deal with their emotions.
post #16 of 17
We liked Jane Nelson's book Positive Discipline. There are several other spin-off books, but that is her original. I believe there is Positive Discipline for Preschoolers, which may be helpful for your daughters' age.
I want to read some of the others people mentioned too...
post #17 of 17
I like the rule of 3, too. I did it out of necessity, b/c I tend to be very rigid and impatient, and apparently I'm a control freak who needs to have things done how I want, when I want (at least according to DH...). ;-) The trouble is, DS just says, "FOUR" if he's in non-compliance mode. And by the time I get to 3, lots of times, I'm ready to lose it.

So I end up giving lots of choices ("do you want to brush teeth now or after 1 more book?") and then there's no negotiating about brushing teeth. Sometimes there's a choice of how we get to the bathroom ("do you want to walk or should I carry you?" "Should I carry you upside down or on my back?") He always gets to brush his teeth first, and then it's Mommy's turn. That way he gets some control, and I know it's done right.

I do admit that I yell more than I want to, and that may actually have played a part in getting him to cooperate in that he KNOWS there's gonna be trouble if he doesn't comply. Sometimes he just yells back at me though, so I definitely don't advocate yelling. It's just something I do out of habit, and need to do much less of, but I do think that it has "helped" at least in some respects, for better or worse. But obviously, it's preferable and probably more effective if you can find a way to set limits and boundaries more gently than that. Find a way to be gentle AND firm.
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