My turn--losing it at bedtime

[neveryoumindthere]

After another night of straight-up laughing in my face when asking the girls (7 y.o. and 4.5 yo) to head to the bathroom to brush their teeth, I am so FED UP! I want to flippin' scream, and punch something REALLY bad!

Every night it gets worse, and I feel this 'need' to PUNISH them worse every time it happens. Which of course doesn't work and the 'punishment' has to get bigger and bigger until when?

I have no idea how to handle this... We have a bedtime routine, I am not always consistent with actually taking them by the hand to go brush teeth, but COME on, they are 7 and 4, go frickin brush your teeth!?!?!

I. am. so. angry. right now I feel like I'm going to explode.

I say ok girls let's go brush teeth and they just look at me, laugh and carry on playing, jumping on the couches, running around etc. I have a 2 week old and I was nursing so I couldn't get up, but even if I did, they'd run away laughing.

I am so pissed off!!! I need ideas. I ended up going in the bathroom, brushed for them, sent them to their room and told them that I would not be taking them to grandma's tomorrow as planned, then as I took them to their rooms, again they were fooling around and not listening so I told them that they lost out on their computer priveledges for tomorrow AND I'm cancelling this weekend's camping trip. (dh and i already decided days we aren't going for other reasons, but they didn't know that yet)..And that still didn't feel like that was enough :

I don't WANT to punish, but I really am getting this almost instinct to do so, because I have no idea how else to remedy this.

I have a sitter/helper during the day, and I already pushed their bedtime a little later, and I refuse to push it even more. I deserve time to myself and to have time with dh. I should not have to be 'ON' for 12 hours straight.

(This behaviour started before the baby was born.)

Please help. I have so much rage inside over this. I am doing my best to control that in front of them, but they were on the recieving end of an angry, raised voice. :

[m0dernist]

I couldn't read an not give you a . So sorry you are being pushed so hard. I don't have any advice to offer - but fully support you in not budging on bedtime. You absolutely deserve that break!

[crowcaw]

Do they respond to incentives? I have almost 5 yo twins and bedtime can quickly turn into a zoo. What mostly works is having something occur that they're motivated to achieve after each step in the routine. They get their bedtime treat (tiny piece of chocolate usually) right after they put pajamas on. After brushing the current bribe is reading in a new series of books that are exciting for them. We've also done things like put on a tattoo after brushing, spend 10 minutes playing a game together, getting a "card" to put in an album they'd be making of their current interest (I print out images I find online and they collect them in an album; they've done dragons, ancient Egypt, ballerinas, dinosaurs)... They key for us is to have it be something that is really interesting to them so they want to get through the brushing to get to do whatever. Doesn't always keep the loud sillies away but it mostly helps.

[aussiemum]

Laughing in your face and ignoring you is not cool, & i can understand why you are feeling so frustrated. As gentle parents, we have a right to expect that our children show us respect as well as we show them respect. Plus you have a newborn baby in the family, & even though in that situation parents may try not to ask it of the older children, the older kids really do need to pull their socks up & help out.

Do you think your oldest two would be able to sit through a short 'family meeting'? By family meeting, I mean very briefly explaining the family situation, telling them of your frustrations, explaining that their behaviour makes you feel angry, and specifically outlining the basic things you need them to do to make life easier for everybody. And then talk about what everyone can do to help out.

Rather than think of punishments, think of it as natural consequences. It's not that you aren't going camping because they have been rude, it's because you can't trust that their actions and behaviour will lead to a nice time out camping for everybody. Rather than using the computer as a punishment, it's just that the expectations for their actions (to be kind and helpful to the family) have not been met, and therefore the computer cannot be used. That example is a bit of a stretch, I know, but you get the idea. When it comes to teeth brushing, well.... the natural consequence is rotten teeth, I guess. For your kids, their adult teeth are just likely coming in, so the consequences are not dire yet. Hopefully after a few days they decide they don't like the 'teeth with socks' feeling and decide to brush properly. It's kind of like washing your own bum, only you can decide what is too gross.... they need to take ownership of that aspect of personal care & hopefully will decide to brush their own teeth before bed. Don't do it for them, and it will stop the battle. Just send them to bed. Hell, kids can go for weeks without brushing their teeth & it won't kill them. Gross, sure, but it won't kill them.

You can't control and hide your anger with their disrespect forever, and you shouldn't be expected to do so. Much better to explain that you are angry with their behaviour, and then explain why you are frustrated right away.

Many years ago, when I found myself yelling at my kids too much, that is basically the advice I got here on these boards- to explain myself, to explain my expectations to my kids (age appropriate) and discuss how we could all lead a more peaceful life. It helped me a lot, & I hope that helps you a bit too- and if not, please feel free to ignore because all families need different things at different times.

[neveryoumindthere]

See, the 'not brushing' is absolutely not an option. I've done that. Just had over $500 done on dd1's teeth, there were FIVE cavitities one of which reached the root and was infected causing her pain. There are still 2 more fillings we have to do as well. I haven't had the 4 yo checked but it looks like there are a couple there too.

[aussiemum]

Okay, fair enough with regards to teeth brushing. I still would argue that very soon they are going to have to recognise a relationship between brushing teeth & avoiding dental fillings, if they don't already, & will have to take personal responsibility for that.

Have you asked for second opinion with regards to their teeth? I know from experience that I had at least 15 mercury-amalgam fillings between ages 12-18, yet once I didn't have the cover of my parents private dental health plan, I have not had one filling recommended by a dentist in the 22 years since.

But honestly, dental stuff is the least of your worries, unless that is the primary thing that is driving your DD's response to your requests. Brushing teeth at night before bed (good for lots of reasons) is only part of the picture.

[BeanyMama]

Hugs! My advice would be to try to keep the consequences relevant to the situation. I would ask them to come have their teeth brushed, and brush them myself, calmly and without a lecture. If they asked, I'd let them know that it's teeth brushing time. I can do them, or you can, but it's not an option in this house.

[mom2grrls]

I think part of the problem is they know you're not going to get up when you're nursing the baby, kids like to advantage of that Do you have a sling you can nurse her in so you have 2 hands free? or at least hold her in one arm and use the other. When I had my third unfortunately I didn't get a lot of sit down nursing time, I wanted the other 2 to know that I would get up lol. Perhaps leading up to the bedtime routine have them engage in quieter activities and then when it's getting to teeth brushing time stand up and go with them. Perhaps the 4 y/o would like to brush your teeth and then hers or the girls could take turns brushing each other's teeth, something to take the strain out of the situation. Also perhaps you may not want to push bedtime later as they may get overtired and too wound up, KWIM?

[midnightmommy]

Do you read to them before bed, and do a cuddle before tuck in? I know how hard it gets with a baby. My husband has pretty much been handling DS bedtime routine since the DD was born. In our house we give our son one hour to get his bedtime stuff done. (Well recently we had to cut it down, because he was caught getting into trouble not just going slow.) Anyway we tell him that the less time he spending arguing with us, and gets it done the more reading/cuddle time he gets. So he goes up at seven to get ready for bed. If he's done ten minutes later he gets 50 minutes of book time till eight. If he's not done until ten minutes to eight though he gets ten minutes. If he finishes after eight we just don't have the time then. No Book. We read chapter books, so more reading means more story. We go through phases where he takes just way too long night after night, but eventually he misses his book time and starts to hurry along again.

No if our son was being really disrespectful about getting ready for bed. He would get the line of "You must be too tired. Since you are acting like this." The next time I had a free hand he would be walked straight up to bed. Teeth brushing can wait. I'm thinking it may be them testing limits though, because they know your hands are full. No real answer for that other than to help them address how they feel, and let them know that you will put the baby down. There will be a consequence if you have to though.

[sarahmck]

I can identify with your bedtime struggles. Mine are mostly caused by my 2-year old, though, which makes it extra hard to deal with because he's still somewhat before the age of reasoning.

I still brush my kids' teeth for them. I have a bunch of friends who have kids with problem teeth and that has made me take this task more seriously lately. My daughter is really very good about her teeth, but when she pulls her face tight so that it's hard to get to some tooth surfaces, I remind her that if we don't take good care of her teeth she will have to go to the dentist like <friend name> and get her teeth drilled. That helps.

As a dental care-related aside, all my friends with the problem-teeth kids have been referred to the same specialist kids' dentist who recommended that they get an electric toothbrush for their kids. He said that the 3-year old minimum age could be ignored. So I got an Oral B one for my kids and two head and just switch them for brushing. I feel like their teeth are getting way cleaner and it helps me to ensure that I brush long enough because it plays a bit of music after each minute of brushing. My son has definitely been more cooperative since we got it. Once I get him started he's generally pretty good about it.

I've also found that it's easier if I just pick him up and start brushing rather than saying "okay, now it's your turn" or whatever. I just do it without warning and it seems like it occurs to him less to object or run away giggling or say "Papa do it" or whatever.

When he was being really terrible about it I would tell him that I was ready to brush his teeth and that I would give him just one chance and that if he didn't take it, Papa would do it (I do the whole bedtime routine). I had done this in the past but then not stuck to it because he would finally become willing and didn't want Papa to do it. Finally one day I had had enough and I really refused to do it and made him deal with Papa doing it, although I did hold his hand while it was being done. After that, he got noticeably less defiant.

One final thing is that I got some Spry Infant Tooth Gel and call that a "tooth treat." I give them this treat if they are good about getting their teeth brushed and all the other aspects of the bedtime routine. They think it's a treat and it's good for their teeth.

Oh, and now a really last thing: my kids love having a bath so I brush their teeth first and say that they can only have a bath once their teeth are brushed, nails are cut, or whatever. That works well.

Okay, end stream of consciousness.

[starlein26]

First, big hugs for your frustrations. When it gets to this point...and you don't want it to head into such a negative zone...I find a positive reinforcement chart VERY helpful. Decide on the behaviors that are challenging them and let them know that when they cooperate with those behaviors, they get a check mark. Once (decided upon number) has been reached...they get a reward.

We do 10 checks in our house and then a reward. I like to get open ended (busying) things for rewards: moon sand, modeling clay, glitter glue, cool new markers, sticker books...

It mostly works in our house...at least I feel better knowing I'm not taking more and more things away....

[TulsiLeaf]

I think brushing your teeth falls into the "you do it or i do it" kinda thing.

Just brush their teeth for them. Don't make a big deal about it. No yelling, no threats, just do it for them. Then put them to bed like nothing happened.

The thing is that you reaction is what is making it fun for them. You take away the reaction and you take away the fun. My daughter brushes hers, she is 4, but she still isn't thorough enough and I still end up doing them afterwards. Some nights she whines about it, and I just take her tooth brush and do it for her.

sorry you are having a hard time.

[spirit4ever]

Bedtime can be hell here too, I have an 8 yr old, 5 yr old (ds's) and an almost 2 yr old all sharing a room. It can be hell.

I have found that I can send the 8 yr old FIRST to pee/brush teeth, when he's done and getting pj's on then its the 5 yr olds turn, and at that point i'm usually trying to get the 2 yr old done!

I end up screaming way more than i want to too...

For me though its after everything is done, its having them lie quietly enough to give everyone a chance to fall asleep!! This is usually when I start to yell!

And I need the two year old to sleep!

Hopefully you get some better ideas!

[reezley]

I have that scene too sometimes, with my 3 and 5 year old boys. I don't have a baby to make things more complicated though! Dealing with one kid while trying to nurse was enough! I think to give yourself (and your kids, obviously) a break from the yelling and punishments, maybe try setting up the whole evening differently so that bedtime isn't a race against the clock. Like, try brushing earlier in the day sometime that you have hands free, so everyone's fresher and hopefully more cooperative. The flip side of that though is that no sugary foods (by whatever your definition is) would be served after that, that day. And the kids should be told that the only way they get sweet foods is if they brush afterward. Then you can relax a bit about worrying about the their teeth at night, since at least they brushed somewhat recently. You could do the same for pajamas, get in pjs as early as possible - or even wear comfy clothes all day so that it's no big deal if they don't change at all for bed. And, of course, if they waste time running around instead of getting to bed, there's no time for books.

I agree with the pp who said the big reaction just leads to more of the behavior. I recently decided to stop the yelling and stressing over bedtime. My new approach has led sometimes to a slightly later bedtime, with my 5yo reading by himself in bed (with my permission, and instructions to turn off the light when he's done) after I say goodnight, but at least MY part of his bedtime is done. Sometimes I ask myself "what's the worst that can happen?" Will they really jump around for hours and hours if you don't react?? Probably not. Worth a try...?

[sparklefairy]

I would start by structuring the evening so that running around and jumping on couches is not something that happens right before brushing teeth. I realize that I could be guessing wrong and that this behavior starts when you say time to brush teeth and that it hasn't been going on for awhile before. I would probably also push bedtime back to where it was -- that kind of frentic energy sometimes indicates here that kids are overtired.

I would not give them the chance to behave insubordinately, if that makes sense. Assume for now that they're going to do what they've been doing. Maybe you "shouldn't have to" accompany them, but I think for now that's the thing to do.

If their father is around, he could be a part of bedtime (my ex never was, so I understand if that just isn't going to happen -- though I wouldn't really be in a hurry to get the kids to bed in order to spend time with a man who wasn't participating in a family routine which includes three kids, assuming he's available at that time).

I don't mind tying responsibility to priviledge these days. If you clown around and waste time brushing teeth, we don't have time to read a story. There is a finite amount of time and patience and shielding kids from those realities just isn't something that I do anymore.

These things really have helped me to not raise my voice as much or as often.

Originally Posted by neveryoumindthere

After another night of straight-up laughing in my face when asking the girls (7 y.o. and 4.5 yo) to head to the bathroom to brush their teeth, I am so FED UP! I want to flippin' scream, and punch something REALLY bad!

Every night it gets worse, and I feel this 'need' to PUNISH them worse every time it happens. Which of course doesn't work and the 'punishment' has to get bigger and bigger until when?

I have no idea how to handle this... We have a bedtime routine, I am not always consistent with actually taking them by the hand to go brush teeth, but COME on, they are 7 and 4, go frickin brush your teeth!?!?!

I. am. so. angry. right now I feel like I'm going to explode.

I say ok girls let's go brush teeth and they just look at me, laugh and carry on playing, jumping on the couches, running around etc. I have a 2 week old and I was nursing so I couldn't get up, but even if I did, they'd run away laughing.

I am so pissed off!!! I need ideas. I ended up going in the bathroom, brushed for them, sent them to their room and told them that I would not be taking them to grandma's tomorrow as planned, then as I took them to their rooms, again they were fooling around and not listening so I told them that they lost out on their computer priveledges for tomorrow AND I'm cancelling this weekend's camping trip. (dh and i already decided days we aren't going for other reasons, but they didn't know that yet)..And that still didn't feel like that was enough :

I don't WANT to punish, but I really am getting this almost instinct to do so, because I have no idea how else to remedy this.

I have a sitter/helper during the day, and I already pushed their bedtime a little later, and I refuse to push it even more. I deserve time to myself and to have time with dh. I should not have to be 'ON' for 12 hours straight.

(This behaviour started before the baby was born.)

Please help. I have so much rage inside over this. I am doing my best to control that in front of them, but they were on the recieving end of an angry, raised voice. :

[jlanda]

I don't know if you do allowances yet or some other type of earned reward/currency, but one tactic I read about that I thought was awesome was the "I want you to do X and if you don't do it, I will do it for you, but it will cost you X." So you deduct the agreed upon amount for every instance. I personally like it because it is a real-world consequence (without the cavities!) I know that if I don't clean this house, I'll have to pay someone else to do it or live in the filth. Since I don't care for filth and don't have the money to chuck at maids, I have to do it. It teaches them a similar lesson.

So if you have to brush their teeth because they don't want to, then they have to "pay" you to do it. The other suggestions were also great, and i thought this would also help add to potential solutions.

I could certainly understand your frustrations, this is the last thing you want to be dealing with especially with a 2 week old nibbling on the boob! Big hugs!

[sunshadow]

I just scanned the other replies, so I apologize if this has been said. It sounds like this is a really important issue for you and that it's escalated by the fact that you are worried about another high dental bill. I also freaked out pretty bad for awhile when my child didn't brush her teeth. The more I insisted the more of an issue it became. Then when I stopped pushing it so much I would find her asking to brush her teeth, sometimes.

Have you tried talk to them about it. Getting down on their level and really explaining your concerns and how it makes you feel? Not in the moment, but when you are all ready to talk. I might also ask them for their ideas on how to handle the situation, giving them some control. When do they want to brush? Do they need something to help them/make it more fun? Good luck!

[swd12422]

We've been having trouble getting DS (2.5, so not really in the same ballpark, I know) to settle down and go to sleep. It's been taking him an hour to unwind! DH and I were moving his bedtime later b/c he's just not sleepy, but later bedtime plus an hour of him "unwinding" takes up the entire evening for us. The advice I got here (and elsewhere) was to move his bedtime EARLIER. I cut his nap short today and sent him off to bed an hour earlier than we have been. So far so good...

All this to say that maybe they need an earlier bedtime for the same nebulous reason? And the added benefit to you is that you have more time in the evening. AND (to me) it's a natural consequence (maybe more logical than natural) that if they fool around too much getting ready for bed, they just have to start that much earlier so they're in bed by x time. Maybe once they understand that they are losing playtime by having to start earlier, they'll become more ... efficient at their routine?

[Plaid Leopard]

I didn't read all of the responses -

First of all, many hugs. Having a newborn and dealing with uncooperative siblings at bedtime - ugh. I remember those days very clearly.

Are your older kids getting enough outdoor/runaround time during the day? I know that when my last baby was born it was a struggle to get out of the house, and by evening time my 9, 7 and 4 year olds were bouncing off the walls and behaving much as your kids are doing now. It was horrrible and I would go into such a rage. GEtting more exercise and fresh air will be helpful to all of you.

Also, maybe either having them brush their teeth earlier, just after dinner or last snack instead of bedtime might help.

Or, take care of one dc at a time. Get one ready for bed while the other reads, plays quietly. I know when kids get in that state they feed off of each others' energy, so it helps to seperate them.

Is your Dh around at bedtime? CAn he help to get them ready for bed?

[LynnS6]

A couple of quick thoughts:

First, move the getting ready for bed time back earlier. Tired kids can be really squirrely. They need to get ready for bed when you and they still have reserves left. If they get ready for bed, including brushing their teeth, then they can have a little extra playtime. If not, it's straight to bed.

Second, the logical consequence of not brushing your teeth when asked is also losing all foods with sugar in them. They've already got the cavities that come from that. I'd also then brush them for them for a few days.

Third, is your husband not able to help with bedtime? It sounds like you really need another pair of hands.