His, Mine & now...OURS - Circumcision Dilemna

[weezix]

DS is 2 years old. I decided against circumcision for him because I felt it was an unnecessary procedure - Cosmetic really. The way I looked at is is my DD 4 is missing a muscle in her mouth which the Dr. said could be corrected when she gets older (not that we will) but they didn't rush her into correct it just because she "looks weird."

DSS 5 is circumcised. DH will not even entertain the idea of not circumcising baby due 11/10. I have had no opportunity to explain to him my decision with my son, although he knows my feelings. He has often made jokes about my son ie: Calling him an "anteater" etc.

Ultrasound is booked in 5 weeks and I was kind of holding off until and IF we find out it's a girl, then I really don't need to stress about this conversation because this is our last child. We both have very strong feelings on the issue and unfortunately they aren't the same.

If it comes down to "it's a boy!" how would you suggest I go about dealing with this problem...or in other words, what phrases etc might be good to use when discussing my point of view to get my point across without getting attacked?

[kittywitty]

The circ forum would probably be a better place for answers about this. But I would just say no, hands down. Not just because I'm anti-circ, but having gone through surgeries due to my son's meatal stenosis from circ'ing him...I can't imagine having anyone else have a say in that.

[weezix]

I wondered about posting in the circ forum, but thought it might be a little too biased over there

I'm a little worried that I'm expecting him to listen and agree to MY way of thinking and me not even entertaining the idea of agreeing to his. Is that even fair? To me this is so black and white.

[porcelina]

I agree. This is kindof a no negotiation issue. That is abhorrent that he makes fun of your DS! True, you probably want to start out delicate, let him feel he's been "heard", and that you've expressed your opinion. But, when it comes down to it, you really just have to hold your ground, if it is something you feel strongly about.

[~Adorkable~]

im sure this wil get moved over to the CAC forum, there you will find some greeat resources to help teach your DH where you are coming from.

a recent one that was posted that i really loved was http://www.davidwilton.com/files/knm...etherlands.pdf its a official publication from doctors and the Netherlands government i think, it was a really good read.

my DH took a bit of time and talking to, he is now on board with keeping any children intact, you will prevail, please keep strong in defense of a future child!

[kittywitty]

I also see it as black and white, and per the mothering UA guidelines, you'll find that there definitely is bias here against circ for good reason. So the bias will be the same in this forum.

[weezix]

i'd move this over to the circ forum but i have no idea how.

[rootzdawta]

Moved from I'm Pregnant to The Case Against Circumcision.

[~Adorkable~]

as you can see the moderators will do that for you, no problem, i hope you find all the help and strength you want.

[~Adorkable~]

Originally Posted by weezix

I'm a little worried that I'm expecting him to listen and agree to MY way of thinking and me not even entertaining the idea of agreeing to his. Is that even fair? To me this is so black and white.

here is how i would personally address this concern.

• understand that yes, it is a talk with two of you, and that is a hard but important.
• listen to his concerns, do your reserch and give factual responses to the issues
• ask him to list his concerns, you can adress with facts all the medical issues, and changing social norms.
• remember to understand that his feelings are real as well, those have to change on his own, but hopefully with the issues adressed he wil be ok with thinking diferently about it.
• remember there are many reasons not to circ, some ring true to folks more than others, so maybe think of if he is someone that wants to hear medical stuff, or human rights stuff? there are many angles to take the lead with.

my first talks with my DH were badly times and full of fire, we got nowhere fast. it was before we got preggo and i always jsut dropped it rather than see him that irratated.
after i got preggo i knoew it would haveto be adresses soon.
i gathered my thoughts and started a calm talk with how sad i was that this was a issues in the past and that i would like to talk it thru with him, and gave him the option to talkign then or setting a time for later, we talked then and by the end of the talk he said that since i seemed to care more than him we would go with my choice.
im sure that over time he will learn more and deal with his own feelings, he can take all the time in the world now that our future children are safe.

[karen1968]

m my experience, don't expect things to be settled after one discussion. It took my DH and I a couple of months, at least, to come to a consensus. It might have taken longer, but DH could see how very strongly I felt about it.

One of my arguments was that it was far easier to do the procedure later than to UNdo the procedure. And one of the best things I did was listen objectively (which was HARD) to DH's reasons for wanting to circ. It really helped me to understand where he was coming from - he was circ'd and he really WAS told all his life that it was better. He still has a hard time equating his genitals with DS's genitals, but still seems OK with our decision. It helped that both peds we interviewed before birth were anti- or neutral-circ.

I recently saw a chart showing the worldwide prevelence of circ that showed the US as one of the very few countries that performs routine cosmetic circumsicion. I wonder if that would help sway him at all? I also found the Penn & Teller "Bullsh!t" about circ interesting, and I think it helped sway DH's opinion more than medical reports, etc. You can find it on Netflix.

[weezix]

DH reason's to circ are: not circ'ing is "grose" it "looks funny". He is also concerned that his son's look like him.

Silly question - do boys really sit around looking at their penis's going "hey...how come his is different?" lol

For the record ds(2) and dss(5) bath together and haven't seem to notice or care that they are different. More interesting the girls (much more curious than the boys) have also not said anything. They have asked such questions as "why do you have bumps on your nipples?" "why are you're boobs longer than mine?" and "what is inside my vagina?" hahaha i'm pretty sure the difference of penis's is no concern to all 5 children in the house

[karen1968]

DH tried that argument on me, and asked him if he'd ever compared his penis with his father's. He said he had, which suprised me. But really, even if they were both circ'd or both not circ'd, he chances that they would look identical seem slim to me!

[weezix]

haha interesting.
i'm thinking...a man is hairy "down there" a boy is not. isn't that already a difference that boys notice, might ask questions on, and then leave it at that. i think there is far too much put on "looking like daddy."

[PoppyMama]

I'm actually pretty disturbed that a grown man is making derogatory comments, or really any comments, about a child's penis. I would personally not tolerate any genital humiliation directed towards my children. As far as arguments...when I was researching before my middle child was born I found a reference that said that circumcision can cause the penis to be shortened by up to an inch when erect. I never needed to say anything beyond that to my ds's father. In reality I would never have agreed to altering my child's genitals without their informed consent and it's something that I would have stood firm on. The procedure can be done later when HE can make the choice. Who compares genitals? Seriously. Can you imagine mother's and daughters comparing external genitalia and noting the inevitable differences. Just weird and creepy.

[weezix]

Originally Posted by PoppyMama

The procedure can be done later when HE can make the choice.

The argument I always here about that is ...what man wants to go through the pain of that. My dh is pretty worked up about getting "snipped" after the birth hahaha. So really I think what they hear when we say its a choice they can have done later is...it will never happen, what grown man would want to go through that, and so, therefore better to do now.

I have put an end to the derogatory penis comments about my son. We had quite a talk about it. Why are men defined by their penis's???? Weird.

[PoppyMama]

I'm glad you put an end to that talk about your ds.

My amazement is that if a grown man, who will certainly have as much anesthesia as he wants as well as very effective pain meds after AND won't have to sit in his own urine and poo with a cut up penis, would never choose to do that then what kind of man would cause such a terrible thing to happen to a newborn whose pain will not be managed and who will have to pee on his own cut up penis.

[dianakaye]

I think it's a really hard emotional issue for some dads. I think that just means that slowly and gently you should deal with his reservations. I think men have to not only work through the cultural assumptions that a lot of us have about the supposed superiority (visually and functionally) of the circumcised penis (all of those myths you can debunk). That's not even to mention the fact that he has to come to terms with the fact that he was never given a choice about his body, or the fact that he deprived his son of a choice about his body. I think admitting that circumcision doesn't need to be done is a HUGE emotional journey for some dads. You get to be a tour guide, and there's plenty of support for both of you. Best of luck and keep us posted.

[kittywitty]

Originally Posted by PoppyMama

I'm glad you put an end to that talk about your ds.

My amazement is that if a grown man, who will certainly have as much anesthesia as he wants as well as very effective pain meds after AND won't have to sit in his own urine and poo with a cut up penis, would never choose to do that then what kind of man would cause such a terrible thing to happen to a newborn whose pain will not be managed and who will have to pee on his own cut up penis.

Exactly!!!

[weezix]

Originally Posted by dianakaye

I think it's a really hard emotional issue for some dads. I think that just means that slowly and gently you should deal with his reservations.

This is the hard part. I totally believe this...but don't know HOW to talk to him about something like this without shouting YOU'RE WRONG hahaha. I guess that has to be my INSIDE voice and I have to try and figure out what appropriate outside voice would be