Muslim Moms, a Question about Swim Lessons

[EdnaMarie]

My husband is a Muslim. We are religiously conservative, socially liberal. I dress modestly but I don't cover. I'm a Christian... kind of moving away from organized religion but that's another story. Anyway. My question is about swimming for children.

My husband doesn't want our daughters to be in swimming as "their" sport because he thinks it's inappropriate for them to wear swimsuits in front of crowds after puberty. He's okay with swimsuits but not while in front of an audience, such as would occur during a swim meet. He wants us to sign them up for martial arts.

I think that the new type of swimsuit that whatzhisface wore during the Olympics should be allowed, you know, if not with that super material (though by the time she's an adolescent--she's 3.5 now--who knows, maybe those things will be a dime a dozen) then at least a full body suit.

He seems to dislike the tight clothes thing. My feeling is, this is a special context and people are really not going to be looking at the girls' bodies. They don't, do they?

The thing is, as a big-framed girl with a long torso and long arms, I think she'd be perfect for swimming. Most importantly, she loves it. Of course that could change any time but I want her to have the choice.

What do you think?

[anjelika]

Not a Muslim mom, but I've seen kids at our pool wear the full body suit for non-competition purposes. Apparently for competition, sleeveless suits ending at the knees are the most modest option allowed as of 2010 by FINA rules, but perhaps you could seek an exemption.

And yes, those competition suits are so unflattering no one can look at anything but the swimming!

Good luck with this decision...

[laohaire]

I don't know anything about competition but about 1 kid in 10 (which is a lot, imho) at the YMCA swim classes are wearing what I would consider to be modest suits (to the elbows and knees, and while obviously form-fitting still not that tight).

I'd cross the bridge of pubescent competition when I came to it. Rules are changing quickly in these times, and they may permit a very modest competition attire by the time your daughter gets there. Or get an exemption like PP mentioned. Worst case is you forbid competition, but it would be a shame to forbid swimming now (for 10 years!) just because you MIGHT have to forbid competition later. She might not even be interested in competing by then - you're a long way away.

[shushu]

It is not right to forbid swimming at the age of 3.5 because of the distant future.

In Islam we are encouraged to teach our children swimming, archery, and horseback riding.

There are plenty of modest swimsuit options on the market today from infant-women's sizes. As far as looking at girl's bodies, yeah some people do. And as Muslims we have our "awrah" to protect, and we must do that for our children as well.

Anyhow, swimming is a great and healthy sport. As an active Muslim woman I try to go often and take my kids as well. My daughter is 9 and she chose to wear hijab. While I am hijabi I wasn't ready for her to start, but I would rather her be modest than the opposite. I ended up getting her a swimsuit from alsharifa.com (same place I got mine!). For my toddler I found a rashguard style suit I think at kmart, but coolibar has nice stuff too. Even my boy wears a rashguard top and long trunks.

Anyhow, yeah I'd have my kid take lessons, but not for competition, simply because it's a skill that can save your life. And it's fun, and healthy.

[EdnaMarie]

Alsharifa.com- awesome, awesome. Thank you. Shushu, is that in the Qur'an about swimming?

The thing is we can't afford lessons in three or four sports. And we have to pay. So if we do swimming, of course she can switch any time, you are right. But I need to convince my husband it's worth it. He thinks if we're going to pay, we should pay for sports that have long-term potential, like martial arts and horseback riding, as shushu mentioned. Not swimming or gymnastics (I'm against gym for health reasons anyway, it's just an example).

"sleeveless suits ending at the knees are the most modest option allowed as of 2010 by FINA rules"

That is still worth talking to him about.

Thanks, ladies. You've given me something to talk to him about.

[Liquesce]

I agree with your husband.

Which is to say I don't agree with keeping kids out of activities because they might someday violate modesty standards I hope they choose to adhere to. But, I don't agree with that because I don't agree with telling my children that at a certain age they are obligated by me to dress to a particular religious standard.

If I *did* agree with trying to enforce a religious dress standard on my children, then I absolutely would not enroll them in an activity at a young age that I might someday have to tell them they have "aged out" of participating in. That's just asking for a battlefield, and for resentment all around.

[lolar2]

What about if you had them take swim lessons now, for safety and learning reasons, and then switched to martial arts when they turn 5? At 5 they would only just be getting into competition anyway, at least around here, and it's plenty early enough IMO. With swimming, most people learn to swim but most people are never on swim teams, it's just something people should know for safety and for recreation. Surely there are some recreational single-sex swimming pools or swimming times for Muslim women, no? It never occurred to me that DS would especially be on a swim team, though I suppose he could, just because we're giving him swim lessons. Does that make sense?

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by lolar2

Surely there are some recreational single-sex swimming pools or swimming times for Muslim women, no?

No. Or rather, there are, but they are scant, so there's really no "surely" about it. Charmingly enough the suggestion has been known to come up against some protest ("sharia at the swimming pool!!!") ... anyone remember the hullabaloo over Harvard setting aside some women-only pool hours a couple of years back?

[wombatclay]

Sort of coming at it from the other side... could you ask him why marital arts are "more modest"? Many martial arts involve grappling, so in a competition there is a lot of grabbing/touching. And even in an art where points are determined by placement of strikes there is a fair amount of touching. Matches may be gender specific, but many instructors are male, and obviously spectators are of all sorts. Certainly something like Tai Chi could be followed as a totally "hands off" art, and there are arts like Kendo (rattan swords) or other 'stick' arts (Kali, Eskrima, Arnis, Silat) that minimize grappling but while the clothing may offer more coverage than a swimsuit, the actual sport involves more touching than swimming.

I agree that I wouldn't limit a skill like swimming, and I do appreciate the financial side, but perhaps swim lessons until 5 or 6, then a more long term activity with swimming as a fun skill? But definately ask your husband about martial arts... look up what is involved in each sport/art and how competition works.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

No. Or rather, there are, but they are scant, so there's really no "surely" about it. Charmingly enough the suggestion has been known to come up against some protest ("sharia at the swimming pool!!!") ... anyone remember the hullabaloo over Harvard setting aside some women-only pool hours a couple of years back?

This is maybe a little OT, but are there such things as Muslim recreation centers equivalent to JCCs or YMCAs?

[shushu]

Edna- no, it's actually a hadith (saying/tradition of the prophet).

I wouldn't personally enroll a 3.5 year old in sports with the hope that they'll compete in it someday. I would enroll them in something that they might like, will get them active.

Liquese- there are plenty of work arounds for hijabis. We can do anything we chose providing we have the appropriate attire accomodations.

Which reminds me-Edna if you are going to enroll her in a sport and then your dh wants her to wear hijab (or she chooses) this also depends on the area, but some places do not let the girls compete in hijab.

Wombat-I'm guessing it's a clothing issue.

Lolar, there are a few in the country but not widespread that I'm personally aware of.

[EdnaMarie]

Liquesce, well, she doesn't have to be Muslim, but if she is, she'll face the choice.

Wombat- at the high-school (post-puberty) level, sports are usually segregated to some extent. So it is more modest.

Shushu- We don't do hijab, though she may choose to.

Lolar- I don't know where one is but we're not in the US now and there certainly isn't such an association within hours' drive of here. We drive 45 minutes to get to the mosque. (!)

I do want to say that it's not that we're hoping she'll compete someday. It is just that we do not want to put her in something (she likes most everything at this point, it depends more on the teacher than the sport) that would later bring her into conflict with her family religion. As Liquesce points out, why set your child up for that?

Martial arts here starts at five so we'll just see how she progresses. Thanks again.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by lolar2

This is maybe a little OT, but are there such things as Muslim recreation centers equivalent to JCCs or YMCAs?

Not as widespread organizations, no. Depending on funding local groups may put together facilities, or more often arrange to rent time at existing facilities.

The controversial building plans going on surrounding the ASMA/Cordoba Institute community center in Manhattan right now, for example, include not only a prayer space but also a fitness center and pool (amongst other things).

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by shushu

Liquese- there are plenty of work arounds for hijabis. We can do anything we chose providing we have the appropriate attire accomodations.

That would depend upon interpretation. I'm not about to tell the women who feel it is inappropriate to appear in public outside of conservative abaya/jilbab that for themselves they are wrong, you know? If that is the interpretation being encouraged, then yes, swimming in mixed gender situations would be difficult.

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

Liquesce, well, she doesn't have to be Muslim, but if she is, she'll face the choice.

I guess I'm not sure what the issue is then? If your husband is open to the idea that it's her choice to make, then it's her choice to make ... if she gets to a point where she feels swim attire doesn't meet her needs as a Muslim, or that certain views of religious dress don't meet her needs as a swimmer, the decisions involved in that are hers. The only way I see an issue is if a parent doesn't agree that it's up to her, kwim?

ETA: Is it that he feels like encouraging the love of swimming is encouraging the love of competition swimming is acting to *dissuade* her away from a more conservative religious view? Like the lessons are kind of like throwing some sort of temptation her way? In which case ... on your side of it, why make it about competition potential? Teach her to swim yourself, take lessons now but not with a plan to continue targeted lessons, etc., join a pool and go for fun, and just sort of let her do her own thing. I had swim lessons at about that age and believe me, I'm no competitor and have never been mistaken for one, totally unrelated to religion.

[wombatclay]

Around here the competitions are gender segregated, but training programs are not... and I don't know any female instructors. But I'm in a fairly rural area and different regions might have different "mixes". So that's what I was thinking about (not the competition per se).

[EdnaMarie]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

I guess I'm not sure what the issue is then? If your husband is open to the idea that it's her choice to make, then it's her choice to make ... if she gets to a point where she feels swim attire doesn't meet her needs as a Muslim, or that certain views of religious dress don't meet her needs as a swimmer, the decisions involved in that are hers. The only way I see an issue is if a parent doesn't agree that it's up to her, kwim?

ETA: Is it that he feels like encouraging the love of swimming is encouraging the love of competition swimming is acting to *dissuade* her away from a more conservative religious view? Like the lessons are kind of like throwing some sort of temptation her way? In which case ... on your side of it, why make it about competition potential? Teach her to swim yourself, take lessons now but not with a plan to continue targeted lessons, etc., join a pool and go for fun, and just sort of let her do her own thing. I had swim lessons at about that age and believe me, I'm no competitor and have never been mistaken for one, totally unrelated to religion.

Okay, for the later part about swimming dissuading from Islam, no, that's not the issue.

I think he just doesn't want her to have to make that choice, or for her to make what he believes is the wrong choice, and I don't, either.

Luckily what I'm hearing is that there may be a possibility of her wearing a suit that covers more of her body, which is great.

And yes, again, of course this is all like, way in the future.

But the thing is, now, she loves swimming. She wants to take lessons. She wants to be in the group. We have to choose. So we are weighing ALL the issues now, as to what to put her in.