The state of Arizona move to ban the 14th amendment.

[artgoddess]

From yahoo news
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2010061...08599199606400

But the likely new bill is for the kids. While SB 1070 essentially requires of-age migrants to have the proper citizenship paperwork, the potential "anchor baby" bill blocks the next generation from ever being able to obtain it. The idea is to make the citizenship process so difficult that illegal immigrants pull up the "anchor" and leave. (See pictures of the Great Wall of America.)


The question is whether that would violate the U.S. Constitution. The 14th Amendment states that "all persons, born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." It was intended to provide citizenship for freed slaves and served as a final answer to the Dred Scott case, cementing the federal government's control over citizenship.

I am so disgusted by this.

[mamaofthree]

that is shocking. can they actually do that, if the 14th amendment says they can't?

h

[artgoddess]

People hate the Nazi "where are your papers" inference. And I get it, I think making comparisons to Nazi's can be insulting and dismissive of the horrible atrocities that took place in the 30's and 40's in Europe. But really, it's getting so ridiculous there that I can see how it happened in Europe 65 years ago. We are in the throes of a recession/depression and people want to blame someone. And it's not just little by little, it's big and crazy and getting so crazy that everyone is too tired to protest and raise hell eventually. First SB 1070, then they fire or remove all the teacher with accents now this, and it's gaining support..

[AdinaL]

I have removed some posts from this thread. Please note that the rules of the forum state that we will not host political discussions. I think the conversation of a state wishing to ban or make a move against the Constitution is a relevant and interesting one. However, we need to leave the political party discussion out of it.

Thanks!

[artgoddess]

thanks for leaving the discussion up!

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by mamaofthree

that is shocking. can they actually do that, if the 14th amendment says they can't?

h

No? They cannot make laws contrary to the constitution, however...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Media...ry?id=10891360

[aussiemum]

I agree, that is disgusting on many levels. This type of policy may well be in line with other parts of the world, but that doesn't make it right, imo. And the US requires citizenship of certain people if their parent was born in the US, so in that regard they are effectively forcing some people (like my kids who have never lived there) to become US citizens.

But surely this proposed law in Arizona will not be upheld? What seems to be a direct violation of the 14th amendment will surely end up at the Supreme Court, where the proposed law would be rejected? Or am I just being naive?

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by abimommy

No? They cannot make laws contrary to the constitution, however...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Media...ry?id=10891360

This is really upsetting to me. I hear so many people talk about the intentions of the early writers of the Constitution, and a need to return to those ideals. This amendment was written at such a separatist time in our US History. I can't put the two together, the wanting to emulate what other countries in other parts of the world are doing with the separatist idea that the USA doesn't need to follow another countries model, what we do here is just fine.

Aussie, I hope that it will be struck down. But when I read the comments posted to the article it saddens me greatly to know that there are a great many people who support this idea. An idea born completely out of racism and bigotry I believe.

When my mom went off to college in Minn in the 1960's there were still small country schools full of blond haired blue eyed children that were taught primarily in German, because that's what the spoke at home. No one complained and pounded their fists about "English only" they thought it was quaint. I believe it has everything to do with the fact that they weren't brown.

[_ktg_]

Wow I'm so glad for my recent law class (law & bioethics) when reading this article.

Technically - AZ can make the law, but many many cases will probably be filed against it in Federal Court. Technically (as the first article states) it will probably be ruled unconsitutional by a federal judge pretty easily. Personally I'm more curious about AZ's first piece of legistation re: the immigration papers to see how that pans out in court.

Abimommy - if congress does want to re-write the 14th amendment, I believe the changes may have to be ratified by 3/4 of the states in the Union (had to double check the consitution on that one - see article V in it).

Aside from the law and how its being used, I am really sickened by the idea of this type of racism. I am very much seeing the same socio-economic themes which were tapped during WWI & WWII being played out in AZ and ugh

[zippy_francis]

These laws make me sick.

This was something I was taught in a history class in college, and it has stuck with me ever since. The statement speaks for itself.

"First they came ..." is a famous statement attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. The text expresses, in a condensed form, the understanding of history presented by Niemöller in a January 6, 1946 speech before representatives of the Confessing Church in Frankfurt.[1]

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."



People need to be speaking up, what they are doing in AZ is wrong.

[artgoddess]

I love this quote from Salma Heyak

“What surprises me is the lack of humanity with which they are treating the immigrants," she said. "What I can’t understand is how the United States, which is considered a hero around the world that helps other countries, doesn’t help the foreigners who enter their country. It’s a contradiction

[A&A]

Originally Posted by mamaofthree

that is shocking. can they actually do that, if the 14th amendment says they can't?

h

It will end up going to the Supreme Court.

You know what DRIVES ME CRAZY about the 14th Amendment is that it has been used, repeatedly, to protect CORPORATIONS as if they were actual citizens:

http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/pers...ammerstrom.pdf


"Corporations, on the other hand, hijacked the Fourteenth Amendment and have used it to
consolidate their power in the U.S. and the world. Corporations have gained many of the
inalienable rights of humans guaranteed by the Bill of Rights with their status as “persons” under
the Fourteenth Amendment."

[Violet2]

So basically legislators are wasting taxpayer money pushing forward an agenda that will not withstand Supreme Court scrutiny. HOW is this racism helping anyone?

V

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by _ktg_

Abimommy - if congress does want to re-write the 14th amendment, I believe the changes may have to be ratified by 3/4 of the states in the Union (had to double check the consitution on that one - see article V in it).

Yep, this is so.


I did see an article about birth tourism recently, it was a bit odd.

[_ktg_]

Originally Posted by A&A

It will end up going to the Supreme Court.

You know what DRIVES ME CRAZY about the 14th Amendment is that it has been used, repeatedly, to protect CORPORATIONS as if they were actual citizens:

http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/pers...ammerstrom.pdf


"Corporations, on the other hand, hijacked the Fourteenth Amendment and have used it to
consolidate their power in the U.S. and the world. Corporations have gained many of the
inalienable rights of humans guaranteed by the Bill of Rights with their status as “persons” under
the Fourteenth Amendment."

I'm with you on how corporations are viewed/handled via the consitutition. I'm still puzzling over the Supreme Court's decision regarding corporations being protected under 1st amendment (I think) when making campaign finance donations.

[bluebirdiemama]

http://www.latina.com/lifestyle/news...ng-capital-usa


This second one is graphic:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/19/...g.kidnappings/

My point: If you read the second article--imagine this happening 380 times a year in your town. This is almost impossible to stop when you have an uncountable number of undocumented people filling in and out. How are you supposed to catch a criminal when you have no information about them whatsoever.

I would like to point out that I am a migrant to this country. If I am expected to follow the laws, and you as citizens are supposed to follow the laws, why have people decided that Mexicans don't have to?

Do you guys know what they do to US citizens who cross into Mexico illegally? I don't. But I have heard it involves imprisonment,and I wouldn't doubt it.

Let me ask a hypothetical question.

If you were paying for a room in a hotel for the weekend, would you be a little upset if there were people roaming the halls and hanging out at the pool who had not paid for a room?

What if they start eating the continental breafast in the morning, so that there was none left for those who had paid for a room?

Doesn't quite make the best point, but you get the idea.

I really hope my post doesn't get deleted, just because it's different. I am not bringing politics into this, just my opinions. Which is what makes a conversation right? And we wanted a conversation?

[AdinaL]

You bring an interesting point of view.

However, I feel like the people that the bill in the OP will target are a different section of people than are committing the crimes in your second article. (which is VERY graphic, BTW.) I guess I am not certain that the bill would stop the crime problems. The people who are committing these crimes are people who are operating well outside the law, and wouldn't so much pay attention to new legislation. Additionally, proposing a law that is contrary to the Constitution seems like a recipe for legal bog downs that will continue to do nothing to solve what is a very real problem.

I understand the anger and fear, but I'm not sure this is the way to go about solving anything.

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by bluebirdiemama

http://www.latina.com/lifestyle/news...ng-capital-usa


This second one is graphic:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/19/...g.kidnappings/

My point: If you read the second article--imagine this happening 380 times a year in your town. This is almost impossible to stop when you have an uncountable number of undocumented people filling in and out. How are you supposed to catch a criminal when you have no information about them whatsoever.

I would like to point out that I am a migrant to this country. If I am expected to follow the laws, and you as citizens are supposed to follow the laws, why have people decided that Mexicans don't have to?

Do you guys know what they do to US citizens who cross into Mexico illegally? I don't. But I have heard it involves imprisonment,and I wouldn't doubt it.

Let me ask a hypothetical question.

If you were paying for a room in a hotel for the weekend, would you be a little upset if there were people roaming the halls and hanging out at the pool who had not paid for a room?

What if they start eating the continental breafast in the morning, so that there was none left for those who had paid for a room?

Doesn't quite make the best point, but you get the idea.

I really hope my post doesn't get deleted, just because it's different. I am not bringing politics into this, just my opinions. Which is what makes a conversation right? And we wanted a conversation?

I'm all for conversation. I just don't understand how removing the 14th amendment would prevent any of this?

[bluebirdiemama]

I think the article in the original post is very unfairly making these people out to be racists. If you look at the news stories coming out of Arizona, you really cannot deny that the illegal immigration has brought the drug cartel in, and allowed them to run it amuck. I agree that not all illegal immigrants are here to sell drugs and kill people. But the point is that if they are here illegally, they are breaking the law. You cannot argue that. We have lawful immigration processes which need to be abidded by and respected. There are TONS of people who want to come here legally, how fair is it that someone can come here illegally, have a baby here, and the baby is a citizen, and then that family has "their foot in the door" for a lack of a better way to say that.
The part of Section 1 in the14th amendment was put their for the sake of the children of slaves. It is outdated. There is no other country in the world with laws that allow citizenship to anyone born in their country.

Here is a story about kidnappings and murders in 2005/2006 in Texas, right along the border, because of the drug cartels (not graphic I promise)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15984485/
This area, Laredo, had so many kidnappings and murders for years, al because of illegal drug cartel. The federal government would not help. They got almost no news coverage.

I not arguing this side for any fearful reasonings, I'm just trying to make the point that we don't rreally get because we all live in safe areas where we don't have to worry about this.
But they are at the point where they need to restore order. There are places all along the border that America has forgotten... they need help. They have been asking for it for years.
I don't think the amendment to the 14th will help immediately, but it will help it from getting worse.
They need to get the criminals out, secure the border so they can't come back in, and get the people who are here legal. Changing the 14th will make it less appealing to come here with no intention of legally migrating,and thus we will have fewer undocumented people, and easier to maintain order.

[artgoddess]

bluebirdie, I would like to have a discussion, but I'm having difficulty responding to your post. First of all there is a lot of false information in your post, so that makes it difficult for me. You make some blanket statements that simply are not based on fact, for example:

There is no other country in the world with laws that allow citizenship to anyone born in their country.

simply not true there are numerous countries that do just that.

you bring up drug cartels that cross the boarder, kidnap people take them to Mexico and then ransom their families in the USA. It's a terrible thing. I'm not getting how a person born here becoming a citizen would have anything to do with solving this problem. There is no doubt a need for stronger boarder protection. Are you thinking that persons born in this country who are legal citizens of the USA are going to kidnap someone then bring them to Mexico, a country they are not a citizen of for ransom? I'm really not following.

To say we don't really get it, is kind of insulting. You don't know where every person on this message board lives. You don't know what I get and don't get.

President Obama has recently committed an additional 1,200 national guard troops to patrol the US southern boarder. This is in addition to the heavy increase in armed patrol that has occurred over the last few years. To say the federal government does nothing is also not accurate. Just last week a US boarder patrol agent shot and killed a 14 year old boy attempting to cross illegally into the country.