The state of Arizona move to ban the 14th amendment. - Page 2

[JessicaS]

Well bluebird was speaking generally. She said "we" not "you." That doesn't seem to be offensive to me.


I don't think anyone would deny that reform is necessary, I think sometimes people take the most extremist path in order to negotiate back to where they want to be. I don't think what is being stated is the actual goal.

I do think it is a reasonable assessment that the Federal government hasn't done enough. I think there might be a lack of interest in taking actions that would make corporations unhappy. They can get rid of the unions if they can bring in migrant workers whether it is legal or not. Even if they receive a few wrist slaps it is a cost effective alternative to paying their workers a living wage

[_ktg_]

When I look at what is being proposed by AZ in the article which will challenge the 14th amendment, I believe it is racism and class-ism which are both playing into this. Violence some, but I think that is more an effect of the violence being currently carried out all over the border in Mexico and spilling over into the US.

For me, my gut test is - would this proposal be suggested in any border State in the US? Not just to the South, but to the North, East or West which take in immigrants (legal and illegal). Would FL propose this kind of law given the # of Haitian or Cuban individuals? I can only speak to the North in WA and I'm pretty sure they don't feel the Canadians to be too much of a problem, and there is a drug problem there too.

There is something unique occurring in AZ right now, it would be key to watch NM and Texas to see what their legislative bodies choose to enact/pass in wake of what Arizona has done.

[mamaofthree]

here is the thing, having lived in Az and now moving back there after a couple years away... the whole idea that there is a HUGE issues with illegal immigrants killing people, selling drugs and kidnapping is all fear mongering. does it happen? yes, is it horrible when it does? YES! but most (as in the majority) of people crossing over illegally are coming to america for a better life. they are desperate. do i agree with them coming over illegally? no, but i do understand why they would do it. they come here for jobs, some decent healthcare, food. all things that we all want too. most are not selling crack on the street corners, kidnapping passers-by and killing border farmers.
as a nurse i have never once had an issue with offer healthcare to those in need be it a white american born poor person or an illegal immigrant who just needs help.
i hear too many scary stories about "i know someone who knows someone who knows someone who has killed by an illegal immigrant who was drunk driving." well i know some one in my own family who was driving drunk and he is legal and white. how is that different?
they are human beings. that is just how i see it. and because they are they deserve to be treated better then this. because most are just looking to better their lives not go on drug crazed killing sprees.
what gets the media coverage are the bad stories, the things to cause fear and hate.
as for the hotel scenario: well if i knew that the people coming to eat the "free" breakfast were starving, i wouldn't care at all.
but i try to not see people as just their nationality and their skin color. i try and see them as i would see my own family, how i would react and honestly i just seem them as people trying to better their life situation.
i am going to venture to guess that all people who are not NA and who can claim ancestry to the first white settlers here in america are illegal immigrants, yet we get to stay because we were born here.
i wonder if the illegal immigrants were from some country that was white, would there be such an up roar or would we be looking for ways to make it easier for them to become citizens?

h

[bluebirdiemama]

I did mention that I am not from this country right? 98% of my family does not live here. If someone from my family wanted to come to the US, because they were starving or whatever reason, I would suggest they should do it legally (after sending food-for whatever it's worth in this thread). If they came here illegally, I would not be opposed to them being arrested. Because they broke the law.

These people are coming here for a better life, most of them. And I think they should.

But if we are a country that is going to enforce it's laws, we need to do so equally. Not, illegal for most, but excusable for them because...

When someone is migating to the US, and they hear "the US doesn't enfore their immigrantion laws", what are they going to think? Are they going to decide to ignore the first law they are breaking, but then take every one seriously after that? Or will they think we don't necessarily enforce our laws? If the US doesn't take it's laws seriously, why should they?

My point about how AZ gets it, and the rest of the country doesn't is that they are right on the border, so they see illegal disregard for the law on levels that we do not.
In our towns (most of our towns), there are some illegal immigrants. But not so many, that the drug cartels run the town and we are seeing more than one kidnap per day.
If we do not stop the constant flow of illegally migrating people into the country, we will see more and more towns where this will be the case.
(not becaus illegal immigrants are bad, but when we give people the idea that it's ok to ignore some laws, there will be ignoring of more laws)

When we allow the babies of illegal immigrants citizenship, it's like we are making what the parents did "less illegal". And it also makes it tempting to come here and start a family before going through the legal process.
About 30% of the homes in my neighborhood are homes to illegally migrant families. They broke the law. I do not think they should be sent back to Mexico, but I do think they need to file proper legal paperwork, and learn english, so they enjoy a good quality of life. And I think if we changed the 14th, it would encouage people to come here legally, instead of just coming. There would be less incentive to do it illegally.

As far as different borders having different levels of security, that's not discrimination or racism, that's common sense. You put more security where there are more illegal crossing, kidnappings and murders. I don't hear too much about that on our other border.

to a pp--- in my previous post I was talking about the lack of federal govt involvement in helping the states against the drug cartels. The state and local police along the border are trying to keep it under control, but the police themselves get kidnapped or go missing, or members of their families. They simply cannot get it under control, and have been asking the fed govt to help for years, but it's like they don't even hear them

mamaofthree--- I would like point out that I am not scaremongering, or trying to. I have never seen stories like the ones I am talking about on tv. Granted I don't watch a ton of tv, but I do watch a lot of national news.
I am not talking about the occasional missing person, there is quite a bit of news about what goes on at the border, but you have to search online for it, because for some reason national news doesn't talk about it.
I would also like to say that I do not have visual in my head of a Mexican person harming a white person. In fact, most of the missing persons are Mexican. And when the illegal border hoping makes it harder to find Mexican citizens when they go missing because there is no documentation of where they are/were, when, etc.
And of course there are white people involved in the kidnappings,etc, too. I am not a racist.

I would also like to say that I am not Republican, Democrate, Independent,or any other political title that I know of, so if that helps you to be more open minded about what I am saying, then please read my post again.

[mamaofthree]

well, i have lived in AZ. and for the most part alot of the issues are race related. there is no push to stop illegal white people from entering the state. i am very ashamed that the state i called home for 23 years (and will be calling home again) is trying to make laws that go against our constitution.
when stories are spread that tell tales of drug running, killings, kidnappings, etc that is fear mongering. not that those things are not happening, but to the extent that they are reported it makes them seem like all illegal immigrants are doing those things, which they are not.
do i believe that they should come over legally? YES! but, like i said, i can see why they don't. how many mexican immigrants would we allow to become citizens? all that want too?

h

[Violet2]

Deleted

[philomom]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

bluebirdie, I would like to have a discussion, but I'm having difficulty responding to your post. First of all there is a lot of false information in your post, so that makes it difficult for me. You make some blanket statements that simply are not based on fact, for example: simply not true there are numerous countries that do just that.

Artgoddess, I've been doing my research this morning and only a tiny handful of other countries around the world allow citizenship based solely on being born inside its borders. I think its high time the United States changed this law. It's not just Hispanics who do this... other folks from other countries do this too and I feel it is if nothing else.. a strain on our country's resources. Because a tiny baby cannot stay here alone, we allow its mother and father and possibly even siblings to stay here.... merely because they were clever enough to time the mother's delivery with a visit to the U.S.

[Monarchgrrl]

I'm not here to debate at all because I'm sure my views are way outside the norm, but I do take some offense at something that was said, because it's very personal to me...

philomom & blubirdie- Well I'm personally glad that my DW's family was able to stay here because her mom got "lucky" enough to have her here, otherwise we would never have met. Would you like to hear how her mom got "lucky" enough to give birth here?

She and her husband in 1975 brought their 1 and 2 yr old across the border while she was 7 months pregnant with DW. She was stuffed into a trunk of a crappy car with 5 other people. Her belly was painfully smashed for hours in a sweltering trunk. Then the coyotes (transporters) were about to separate the women from the men (to rape the women- happens almost 100% of the time) but DW's mom and dad convinced them that she couldn't keep the two toddlers quiet without the husband's help. This was after the coyote rubbed his hands up and down her belly while saying nasty things in her ear, and she realized he was going to rape her if she was separated from her husband. This was also after ALL of the people were made to strip naked in front of everyone (man, woman, child and even the old, old women) to check for jewelry or money. They didn't just look you over to check, either. They physically checked everywhere. All valuables and cash had to be given to the coyotes or they would be shot. (So how are you to survive in the U.S. with no cash or valuables?) One man kept his wedding ring and wouldn't hand it over and he was shot in the head in front of everyone. Then the wife of one of the coyotes told her that she would take her youngest son from her (literally from her arms) if she didn't let her husband have his way with her. After she said no, she said that she would take him as soon as she was asleep. So, she didn't sleep at all the whole time. A fight between her husband and the coyote insued and her husband was almost killed. They left the family behind in the desert instead of taking them to San Diego. They found a ride in a truck full of farm workers and made their way up the coast to San Francisco. None of them knew any English. My DW was born here (at home with the help of a neighbor because they couldn't afford the hospital and they were too scared of being found out and sent back), but that didn't mean that they all got a free ride to stay. Oh no. They were all still illegal and scared. Only the dad got a job in construction and the rest of the family barely left the house for year, because they were scared of being caught and sent back. Finally the kids learned English when they started Kindergarten. And then the mom took English classes and became a citizen in 1996. The dad started a very profitable real estate/construction business with another man and went on to become very successful. They were never on food stamps or welfare or handouts (in fact they were so poor that they routinely didn't have electricity and once ate nothing but frozen soft pretzels for 2 months for every meal!), they always paid taxes, never had "under the table" jobs and became upstanding members of society. Every story of every person they knew that came here illegally is practically the same. Nothing was handed to them and they worked their way up the hard way.

So I guess she was "clever" enough to time the delivery here with that nice visit to the U.S. IMO, anyone that has to go through that hell to have their baby here can stay.

[lotusdebi]

Originally Posted by Monarchgrrl

IMO, anyone that has to go through that hell to have their baby here can stay.

[bluebirdiemama]

Originally Posted by Monarchgrrl

philomom & blubirdie- Well I'm personally glad that my DW's family was able to stay here because her mom got "lucky" enough to have her here, otherwise we would never have met. Would you like to hear how her mom got "lucky" enough to give birth here?

So I guess she was "clever" enough to time the delivery here with that nice visit to the U.S. IMO, anyone that has to go through that hell to have their baby here can stay.

I never said anything about "being lucky" coming here illegally, or havng a baby here and staying illegally. Neither does your logic make sense to me. When people come here through a legal procedure, they are not exposed to a process where people can steal from them, shoot them, or rape them.

I would like to insert into the convo here that my parents brought me into this country illegally. I was 11, they brought me here, neglected to file the proper paperwork. I had my "foot in the door" because my baby was born here. I am legal now, but I went through a degree of hell. I lived a good portion of my life being told "no, you cannot pursue that goal, that dream, that avenue. you don't have the proper paperwork."
My parents may see what they did as some kind of service, good act, good parenting, whatever, but I see it as a series of crimes, lawful and moral, against me.
Coming here illegally is a bad decision, IMO. Even if you are escaping a worse living condition or scenario, you are basically putting yourself into a position of serfdom. (or putting your children into it).
You are allowed in the land, and allowed to make some (not very good) kind of living, but you have no rights. If you need to drive somewhere you either have to break the law to get a drivers liscense, or break the law and drive. Either way you risk fines, jail, etc. You are completely bound almost anytime you wish to do something that a person should be able to do.

[_ktg_]

I don't think anyone has called anyone posting a racist. Of course there will be many sides to issue and as we all fall on deciding what is an acceptable law to be created in the United States.

I want to go back to the notion or rule of thumb I like to use as stated in a previous post which is: could this law ever be proposed in any other border state in the U.S. and possibly pass?

Or is this a situation of events, violence and general social unease about the economy, possibly some race issues which are bubbling to the surface in ways that folks in the area believe will help stem the tide of some of these problems they are facing (increase in violence being the prime target I assume)

As someone who is not in AZ, but avidly watching the legislation pass (first the immigration papers, and then the AZ school board discontinuing ethnic studies) it begins to made me wonder what is going on socially to drive these changes and seemingly "whitewash" a culture in the U.S.

[Monarchgrrl]

Originally Posted by bluebirdiemama

I never said anything about "being lucky" coming here illegally, or havng a baby here and staying illegally. Neither does your logic make sense to me. When people come here through a legal procedure, they are not exposed to a process where people can steal from them, shoot them, or rape them.

I know you never said that. I only included your name because you are one of the ones being vocal about illegal immigrants. I get what you mean about the fact that if someone comes here legally then they most likely won't get robbed and raped and I agree, however, most Mexicans that apply will be flat out denied entry! Period. It absolutely helps being white and from a northern border or a European country to gain legal entry. How many Mexicans would be able to legally come here if they applied (with no job, possibly no special skills, old age, etc), and after waiting how long? For some (many!) it's life or death of whether they come here now or wait it out. So, just curious, feel free not to answer, but why did your parents come here illegally and not legally? Also, did you become a citizen after you had your baby here?

Personally I think the answer is to make the legal process easier, cheaper, and shorter so that there is an incentive to doing it legally. However, that's not going to happen because the powers that be want only certain kinds of immigrants here and they don't want to "overwhelm" the system by allowing anyone and everyone in. So...the illegal border crossing will continue.

[bluebirdiemama]

Originally Posted by Monarchgrrl

I know you never said that. I only included your name because you are one of the ones being vocal about illegal immigrants. I get what you mean about the fact that if someone comes here legally then they most likely won't get robbed and raped and I agree, however, most Mexicans that apply will be flat out denied entry! Period. It absolutely helps being white and from a northern border or a European country to gain legal entry. How many Mexicans would be able to legally come here if they applied (with no job, possibly no special skills, old age, etc), and after waiting how long? For some (many!) it's life or death of whether they come here now or wait it out. So, just curious, feel free not to answer, but why did your parents come here illegally and not legally? Also, did you become a citizen after you had your baby here?

Personally I think the answer is to make the legal process easier, cheaper, and shorter so that there is an incentive to doing it legally. However, that's not going to happen because the powers that be want only certain kinds of immigrants here and they don't want to "overwhelm" the system by allowing anyone and everyone in. So...the illegal border crossing will continue.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true. Hopefully you or I or someone else will find some factual information about it and post here. I am curious to know what percentage of immgrants applying they allow from each country. I would assume it would be a equal percentage of those applying.
But there does have to be order to the process. We are the most free country in the world, so a lot of people want to come here. But if we allow every person to come here, we would end up with many who do not understand why we are a free country to begin with.
(Keeping in mind we are the first country of our kind. Many people in the world don't understand the reasons for our freedoms, or the responsibilities we have in maintaining it)

I also think it is an assumption to say that coming here is a matter of life and death. There are some who come here for that reason, but there are almost always other options. I would think there are very few situations where the literally only two choices are 1. die, or 2. come to the US.

I DEF agree with you here:

"Personally I think the answer is to make the legal process easier, cheaper, and shorter so that there is an incentive to doing it legally."

But your next statement about how that's not going to happen, why would you say that? If you geniunely feel like that is the best solution (and I think most Americans agree), why would you dismiss it as "not going to happen"? If everyone who thought that a good solution would stand up and demand Washington hear them, it would happen. We are the ones employing those in Washington, after all.

About my own experiences, yes I did become a citizen after my baby was born. I'm not sure how much that helped me out, because my application was based on marriage to my dh ( after I was arrested for driving without a liscence and was threatened with my 4 month old being put into Child Services care).
My parents brought me here assuming I was eligible for citizenship for a reason I will not mention. Turns out I was not, and when it came time to either apply properly or leave, my only option was to get married.

Which is another reason I think it is better to go through legalities before coming here. When you are a citizen of another country applying legally, you maintain all your personal rights. When you are illegally present and trying to apply, you are a person with no rights, subject to whatever regulations they feel like writting up. For me it was marriage.
I probably would have been w dh for a long time anyway,and maybe evntually married him, but the forced nature of it puts stress on life when it shouldn't be there. (And many other repercutions from it that don't belong in this thread)

[goodygumdrops]

I have been following this thread and I believe that I am going to have to agree with bluebird on this one.

I live in South Florida and I have had the experience of working with a young girl for several years that was an illegal immigrant from Colombia. She wasn't born here and her mother was brought her here when she was 4. She had hardly spent any of her life in Colombia, and when I met her she was in her early twenties. She was working under the table for a man that was of questionable morals. I believe he took advantage of her for years and I felt quite sad about what she was experiencing. She eventually got sponsored and after marrying for a greed card (to an abusive man) she was able to get her citizenship. She was my friend and I was very upset with our immigration law and how much she had to suffer, when she had worked so hard and couldn't make the same choices of others that had citizen ship. Her mother got her papers but never got them for her daughter, which is criminal in my mind.

That said, I am a nurse in training and I have spoken to several maternity nurses that said how common it is for mothers to fly here to deliver their babies so they can have dual citizenship. They have told me that the mothers don't even lie about it anymore...one said the mother was only here for two weeks just to give birth. Personally, my cousins husband is a Muslim from Morocco. I know for a fact that his sister stayed with him, alone, for the last month of her pregnancy just so she could give birth her and then flew back to Morocco.

Lastly, I don't really believe that the media is "scaremongering" with these stories about violence on the border. My h is in the army and is stationed in El Paso, TX. They are literally on the border with Juarez, a notoriously violent town. They have upwards of 20 murders a day and many of them are incredibly heinous, including daily beheadings by drug cartels. I actually was considering moving there and I called a local Montessori, and the receptionist was telling me that they have recently expanded because they were receiving so many new students because the border violence was horrific. Families were coming over the border and relocated to El Paso. She ensured my that El Paso was one of the safest cities in the Us, and maybe it is, but I it would take a lot for me to be comfortable leaving my child in a school less than 20 minutes from the border.

So, I do think the law needs to change. I consider myself a democrat.

[AdinaL]

I would like to remind everyone that there is no namecalling, and the use of the term "illegal" falls under that. Saying that they are in the U.S. illegally, or saying that they are illegal immigrants is fine, and is describing something they are doing. Calling the person, themselves, illegal, is not okay. So, please, if you used it, edit. Thank you all very much. Please PM me if you need clarification on this.

[JessicaS]

I agree with everyone really.

It is such a tragedy.

[lookatreestar]

Originally Posted by bluebirdiemama

I did mention that I am not from this country right? 98% of my family does not live here. If someone from my family wanted to come to the US, because they were starving or whatever reason, I would suggest they should do it legally (after sending food-for whatever it's worth in this thread). If they came here illegally, I would not be opposed to them being arrested. Because they broke the law.

These people are coming here for a better life, most of them. And I think they should.

But if we are a country that is going to enforce it's laws, we need to do so equally. Not, illegal for most, but excusable for them because...

When someone is migating to the US, and they hear "the US doesn't enfore their immigrantion laws", what are they going to think? Are they going to decide to ignore the first law they are breaking, but then take every one seriously after that? Or will they think we don't necessarily enforce our laws? If the US doesn't take it's laws seriously, why should they?

My point about how AZ gets it, and the rest of the country doesn't is that they are right on the border, so they see illegal disregard for the law on levels that we do not.
In our towns (most of our towns), there are some illegal immigrants. But not so many, that the drug cartels run the town and we are seeing more than one kidnap per day.
If we do not stop the constant flow of illegally migrating people into the country, we will see more and more towns where this will be the case.
(not becaus illegal immigrants are bad, but when we give people the idea that it's ok to ignore some laws, there will be ignoring of more laws)

When we allow the babies of illegal immigrants citizenship, it's like we are making what the parents did "less illegal". And it also makes it tempting to come here and start a family before going through the legal process.
About 30% of the homes in my neighborhood are homes to illegally migrant families. They broke the law. I do not think they should be sent back to Mexico, but I do think they need to file proper legal paperwork, and learn english, so they enjoy a good quality of life. And I think if we changed the 14th, it would encouage people to come here legally, instead of just coming. There would be less incentive to do it illegally.

As far as different borders having different levels of security, that's not discrimination or racism, that's common sense. You put more security where there are more illegal crossing, kidnappings and murders. I don't hear too much about that on our other border.

to a pp--- in my previous post I was talking about the lack of federal govt involvement in helping the states against the drug cartels. The state and local police along the border are trying to keep it under control, but the police themselves get kidnapped or go missing, or members of their families. They simply cannot get it under control, and have been asking the fed govt to help for years, but it's like they don't even hear them

mamaofthree--- I would like point out that I am not scaremongering, or trying to. I have never seen stories like the ones I am talking about on tv. Granted I don't watch a ton of tv, but I do watch a lot of national news.
I am not talking about the occasional missing person, there is quite a bit of news about what goes on at the border, but you have to search online for it, because for some reason national news doesn't talk about it.
I would also like to say that I do not have visual in my head of a Mexican person harming a white person. In fact, most of the missing persons are Mexican. And when the illegal border hoping makes it harder to find Mexican citizens when they go missing because there is no documentation of where they are/were, when, etc.
And of course there are white people involved in the kidnappings,etc, too. I am not a racist.

I would also like to say that I am not Republican, Democrate, Independent,or any other political title that I know of, so if that helps you to be more open minded about what I am saying, then please read my post again.

just because someone made a choice to make a better life for their family doesn't mean they disregard all laws.

[lookatreestar]

Originally Posted by Monarchgrrl

I know you never said that. I only included your name because you are one of the ones being vocal about illegal immigrants. I get what you mean about the fact that if someone comes here legally then they most likely won't get robbed and raped and I agree, however, most Mexicans that apply will be flat out denied entry! Period. It absolutely helps being white and from a northern border or a European country to gain legal entry. How many Mexicans would be able to legally come here if they applied (with no job, possibly no special skills, old age, etc), and after waiting how long? For some (many!) it's life or death of whether they come here now or wait it out. So, just curious, feel free not to answer, but why did your parents come here illegally and not legally? Also, did you become a citizen after you had your baby here?

Personally I think the answer is to make the legal process easier, cheaper, and shorter so that there is an incentive to doing it legally. However, that's not going to happen because the powers that be want only certain kinds of immigrants here and they don't want to "overwhelm" the system by allowing anyone and everyone in. So...the illegal border crossing will continue.

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by lookatreestar

just because someone made a choice to make a better life for their family doesn't mean they disregard all laws.

tis true. I've been known to cruise at about 5 - 10 mph above the speed limit on the freeway. But the chances of me holding up a liquor store any time soon are slim to none.

[bluebirdiemama]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

tis true. I've been known to cruise at about 5 - 10 mph above the speed limit on the freeway. But the chances of me holding up a liquor store any time soon are slim to none.

But you are doing this with the awareness that there are highway patrol ready to pull you over if they see you. If there were no threat of being pulled over you'd probably do 15-20 over the speed limit