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Woman charged with murder after refusing C-section - Page 6

post #101 of 357
Did you miss the whole other part of the story? It wasn't necessarily the cigarettes - it was the COCAINE and ALCOHOL.

Let's just drop the whole cigarette issue.

The issue of cocaine and alcohol is problematic to me. To me, it clearly is an issue of someone who isn't necessarily making the best choices for her babies. It's not like a typical MDC mama choosing the best course of care for her body and her baby. THAT is what I'm taking issue with - not the fact that she had vices, or possibly a horrific childhood, couldn't support herself, got caught up in drugs, or whatever her history is. The fact is that we are saying that women should be able to make choices - but what about women who aren't making INFORMED CHOICES about care or even making the BEST choice for them? C'mon. It's very, very different in this case. Very different.

Mamas, this is very different.

However, I WILL agree that it is a slippery slope. I just want to be cautious about defending this woman's actions simply because I believe in birth choices.
post #102 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by pamamidwife

I'm just really confused as to why what this woman did was ok.
i don't believe anyone said it was. the question is whether or not the state has a right to cut a person open against their will based on the whim of a doctor.
post #103 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by dado
i don't believe anyone said it was. the question is whether or not the state has a right to make cut a person open against their will based on the whim of a doctor.
How do you define "whim"? If three different docs said that the baby was in serious distress and dying, then the baby did die, while the other was in distress - are those "whims"? Are all doctors lying then?

Gawd, I cannot even believe I typed the above paragraph. Never thought I'd live to defend doctors. Lol

Surely the lines are blurred here. Surely we're all in agreement about this being horrific as a precedent.
post #104 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by veganmamma

Where was the state when this woman got pregnant?
come to think of it, where is the genetic father in all this? does he have no culpability?
post #105 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by pamamidwife
How do you define "whim"?
i don't, when i'm not directly involved in the situation. nor do i believe i have a right to. i can only define it in relation to myself.
post #106 of 357
There is a poll here. 59% are in favor of her prosecution as I type this.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4509692/

I rechecked the link and there may be some technical issues, but it should be resolved soon.
post #107 of 357
pam, I am all over this case because of the precedent. Yes, clearly this woman was not making rational decisions... at least if what the doctors who spoke with her are reporting is true. She insists she never refused a section. Innocent til proven at the very least. As someone else has noted, I don't usually play the slippery slope card and usually get annoyed when others do but this feels to me like the time to make an exception. If they push through the idea of prosecuting her because she is such a stunning example of bad judgement the door is then open for them to use this as added pressure on all the rest of us.
post #108 of 357
I'll bite... to me, in this context, a 'whim' is a statement based more on opinion then reason or facts... happens a lot with doctors.
post #109 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by coleslaw
One of the many versions of the story mentioned that it mostly seems like a breakdown between physician and patient. I totally agree. If she thought that she was getting a T cut and didn't want it and siad so, the doctor could have tried to get down to her reasons. If she didnt' want that cut, h/esh/e should have discussed other options
First I want to say this woman is a drug addict (her other baby tested positive for coke) her word can't be trusted. She may have had to get a classical incision or not. With twins, it sometimes depends on their size and position. My sister was an L&D nurse and she has told many stories about trying to discuss things with drugged out patience. Its like talking to the wall. Sometimes they leave AMA. I think it is really sad that this thread has turned into bash the medical establishment when this woman was a drug addict and was negligent.
post #110 of 357
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pamamidwife
[B]Granted, there is a fine line here. Do we fear that the law will not see the difference between the woman who recently refused a c-section and went on to birth a large baby and this woman?[b/]

I do!!!! There is a big difference. The other woman was parenting her children, not an addict, had birthed other large babies, knew she could birth the large baby. Sought medical care elsewhere and followed through. The other woman was an addict, had a highrisk pregnancy in my opinion since she was an addict, was told not once but multiple times there were problems with these babies, not by one facility but others. Her living child was born with coke in her system, and is probably on all kinds of drugs being detoxed.

<<Clearly, a woman who is turning down medical care because of her substance abuse or inability to make rational decisions is different.

I'm just wondering if people are eager to support her because of the fear that it will set a precedent that will create laws over our right to turn down medical care?>>

Wow, Pam, I think you are so right on! I have turned down medical care, feared CPS knocking on my door for it, but what this woman did was not just turn down medical care in my opinion. She was hiding something, she was negligent. She compromised the lives of her children in more ways than one.

<<I have a hard time supporting someone who clearly went to the hospital three times before labor started, who did cocaine and alcohol, who sought out no second opinions, and when she found out her baby had died, she went out to smoke a cigarette.>>

Pam I dont think we have agreed so much at one time!

<<I'm just really confused as to why what this woman did was ok. We can be clear about this woman's actions and our agreement that the law should not dictate care for us.

As someone who wants to fight to keep medical care a choice, I have a hard time aligning myself with actions like this. I think it's irresponsible, based on the coverage, and that she clearly was not aware of what was happening. >>

WOO HOOOO !!! I SO AGREE
post #111 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by dado
i'm sorry, but you simply cannot legitimately force a human being to have their body cut open. that's just insane.
I agree.
post #112 of 357
What good does it do to charge her with murder?

What message does it send to women who are addicts?

I think it says "if your using don't come here we will make you have surgery then procecute you for neglegence if you don't agree."

At least she was at a place for medical care. Why in God's name didn't someone admit her against her will when they realised she was on drugs and get her help then? Why couldn't they have taken their resources and cleaned her up for the rest of her pregnancy. Where was the court order then?

What about mandatory rehabilitation, making her get clean and addressing her mental illness?

But murder? Oh, come on. Even if she was on heroin she doesn't deserve that. She was and still is sick. This is the biggest case of penis envy-doctor crowing I have ever ever seen.

This makes my head hurt.
post #113 of 357
I haven't read all the responses, so I apologize if someone already said this. But the irony of this situation is that if the woman had never gone to a doctor, she wouldn't have been charged with murder. I'm afraid this will drive more pregnant women underground.
post #114 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by Zaq001
If I smoked, and I had just lost a baby, I might light up after the fact. Remember, people with addictions have them because they don't have the resources to cope with trauma in their life. They don't physicaly have the wherewithall to cope with terrible things.

So, what would you do if you found out your baby just died? Would you wail, cry or pound your fists? What if someone thought you mentally unstable because you did those things, they decided to pass judgement on you.

I
This is bull crap. There are resources for women like her. Had she gone to a legitimate adoption agency or a womens center she could have gotten them. Sorry I am not buying it. Terrible things have happened to me in my life, but I dont drug myself out and shirk responsibility for my actions.

My Mother in law lost two babies. One stillborn, one that lived a day. She sure didnt go out and smoke or snort coke. I know several people who have lost infants but they didnt act like this woman.
post #115 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by dado
i don't believe anyone said it was. the question is whether or not the state has a right to cut a person open against their will based on the whim of a doctor.
Looks like it wasnt a whim. Three different people told her the same thing at three different facilities. This whole thread is blame the medical establishment. This woman killed her baby and has another one addicted to coke. She is a real winner. Not the person I would chose to be the model for birth choices.

And lets note she had 2 other csections. So what was the big deal?
post #116 of 357
*
post #117 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by pamamidwife
How do you define "whim"? If three different docs said that the baby was in serious distress and dying, then the baby did die, while the other was in distress - are those "whims"? Are all doctors lying then?

Gawd, I cannot even believe I typed the above paragraph. Never thought I'd live to defend doctors. Lol

Surely the lines are blurred here. Surely we're all in agreement about this being horrific as a precedent.
::assing out::::

sitting on the couch with Pam on this one.
post #118 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by Zaq001
What good does it do to charge her with murder?

What message does it send to women who are addicts?

I think it says "if your using don't come here we will make you have surgery then procecute you for neglegence if you don't agree."

At least she was at a place for medical care. Why in God's name didn't someone admit her against her will when they realised she was on drugs and get her help then? Why couldn't they have taken their resources and cleaned her up for the rest of her pregnancy. Where was the court order then?

What about mandatory rehabilitation, making her get clean and addressing her mental illness?

But murder? Oh, come on. Even if she was on heroin she doesn't deserve that. She was and still is sick. This is the biggest case of penis envy-doctor crowing I have ever ever seen.

This makes my head hurt.
I think she should be charged with neglect and manslaughter. Her actions resulted in her babies death. I don't care that she is sick actually. She made a choice to take drugs. She made a choice to go to three different places, got the same opinion and did nothing.
I'm a prochoice, feminist, tree hugging liberal but I think this woman should be made an example of. I'm parenting a child with FAE because of someone elses carelessness. What happen to his rights? He had none.
post #119 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by Zaq001
OTF~ Don't start with me. I know you hate all people that can't just be as wonderful as you are.

Get a grip. Some people have real problems and are not able to handle them in correct ways.

I bow to your wonderful angelic way you live your life. YOU are queen of right choices! Brava to you!!!

I am bowing to you as I speak. Go on, I think you need to replace Mother Teresa. Your compassion astounds me : .
:

This is not about me vs her or anyone else. This woman did not take proper care of herself and gave no reguard to her children. She had no intention of parenting them at all. I've had real problems too, are you suggesting I dont? or havent? What happen to taking personal responsibility?
I feel no compassion for this woman. She has a history of problems and has not stepped up to the plate to take responsibility for her actions. And now she has a bunch of people here supporting her irresponsibility. Had she not been irresponsible to begin with, using drugs, and failing to get proper care, this would be a non issue. If people loose birth choices, its because of her. Not the medical establishment. This is why these things happen and the medical establishment has all those CYA rules -- for messed up people like this.
post #120 of 357
No one is nominating her for mother of the year. We are saying that a charge of murder in the first degree ( also know as premeditated murder) is so far over the top it is mind blowing. And we worry that once this becomes a legal precedent the prosecuters will be less careful about sorting the real screw ups like this woman from the very educated, highly opinionated women here. Now if you refuse doctors advice they can threaten you with a dead baby and an arrest. Not what I call progress.
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