Woman charged with murder after refusing C-section - Page 9

[kama'aina mama]

sorry T fizzymom, please PM me if you find more info. I am really very interested in this.

[fizzymom]

ok, it might be a little while. I have to dig through some records, but I'm sure it is a document that I kept.

I think you just lit a fire under my butt!!

[Greaseball]

Is is okay to medicate someone against their will? In some states, if you are mentally ill, and on psychiatric drugs, you can be legally forced back on them- even if you think you no longer need them.

And many of these drugs are not safe for pregnant women, according to the Physician's Desk Reference.

The message seems to be that it's OK for doctors to endanger babies, but not for mothers to do so.

And I still don't see how the baby would have lived if the c/s was done.

[Katana]

Is there a past, documented history that she uses/used cocaine?

Some drugs given in labor, are in the same family as cocaine. It would be very easy to 'mix up' the results in a hospital lab. But then, I"m suspcious of absolutely everything any obgyn or doctor dealing with pregnant women would do or say.

Who knows what they did to this woman, or what they did to her records, or what they told her.

[lollaleeloo]

Some people say that the surgical birth alone could have killed her babies, well, had she had the csection the day she was told she needed it, there is not a doubt in my mind they would have lived.

Of all the places on the web to read a statement like this.

Nobody knows when the baby died. Nobody knows how the baby died. Nobody knows why the baby died. Nobody that is, except those who would presume to call the mother of a stillborn infant a criminal (if not an outright killer) based solely upon the one and only thing that *is* known about the death at this time: where it occured, which was, tragically, inside her body.

In light of the complete LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE to the contrary, the cruel judgements and pure speculation about her illicit drug, alcohol & tobacco use causing the death of her child remain just that: cruel judgements and pure speculation. The fact that her surviving twin tested positive for the aforementioned substances in no way indicates whether their use contributed to the death of her other twin, anymore than it indicates whether or not an earlier c-section would have saved him. Bottom line is, without knowing what killed him, there is absolutely no basis for claiming that had he been cut out sooner, he'd be alive today. None whatsoever.

Not the hospital, not the coroner, not even the prosecutors are claiming that drug/alcohol/tobacco use played any part in the death of her child. Her lifestyle, her troubled past, her illnesses, and even uncorroborated reports of her personal vanity -- are all being used for the purpose of demonizing her in the eyes of the public, and whaddya know: it's working. Make no mistake, people. This woman mourning her dead baby sits in jail tonight for the sole crime of defying doctors' orders, and there but for the grace of God go any one of us. I'm not only shocked and horrified to read some of the comments I've read in this thread, I'm heartbroken. That so many here would unashamedly indulge in this 'Serves her right' mentality just floors me.

[Unreal]

Originally posted by lollaleeloo

Not the hospital, not the coroner, not even the prosecutors are claiming that drug/alcohol/tobacco use played any part in the death of her child.

I never even noticed that!
I mean they really really have made this into a case about a woman's right to reject the opinion of a medical 'professional'

It isn't about her care of the babies at all, because if it were, they would be placing more emphasis on the drug use or the other things that are being used to villify her. The news reports (I've only seen the ones posted here) all bring up these things...But the charge is based on her mudering the baby by NOT HAVING THE C-SECTION as advised by the doctor.

and that frightens me
a lot

[LynnE73]

Lollaleeloo, you are my idol! How amazingly articulate. I wanted to say that only I'm not even remotely as articulate and would have wound up cursing and argueing with a few folks here!
Thanks for a GREAT post!
-Lynn

[veganmamma]

Originally posted by lollaleeloo
Of all the places on the web to read a statement like this.

Nobody knows when the baby died. Nobody knows how the baby died. Nobody knows why the baby died. Nobody that is, except those who would presume to call the mother of a stillborn infant a criminal (if not an outright killer) based solely upon the one and only thing that *is* known about the death at this time: where it occured, which was, tragically, inside her body.

In light of the complete LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE to the contrary, the cruel judgements and pure speculation about her illicit drug, alcohol & tobacco use causing the death of her child remain just that: cruel judgements and pure speculation. The fact that her surviving twin tested positive for the aforementioned substances in no way indicates whether their use contributed to the death of her other twin, anymore than it indicates whether or not an earlier c-section would have saved him. Bottom line is, without knowing what killed him, there is absolutely no basis for claiming that had he been cut out sooner, he'd be alive today. None whatsoever.

Not the hospital, not the coroner, not even the prosecutors are claiming that drug/alcohol/tobacco use played any part in the death of her child. Her lifestyle, her troubled past, her illnesses, and even uncorroborated reports of her personal vanity -- are all being used for the purpose of demonizing her in the eyes of the public, and whaddya know: it's working. Make no mistake, people. This woman mourning her dead baby sits in jail tonight for the sole crime of defying doctors' orders, and there but for the grace of God go any one of us. I'm not only shocked and horrified to read some of the comments I've read in this thread, I'm heartbroken. That so many here would unashamedly indulge in this 'Serves her right' mentality just floors me.

You rock.

[OnTheFence]

<<People who are mentally ill may not be able to take responsibility for their actions. Mentall illness is just like cancer. Do you think cancer patients should be blamed for their pain or vision loss? Should my father be blamed for his cirrhosis? What about mother's with post partum psychosis, should they be blamed for their inability to distinguish delusions from reality? >>

As a mother to a child with a "mental" illness I work hard to teach my som empathy and right from wrong. I try to teach him, even though it is difficult and he is young, that he has to take responsibility for his actions -- even if they were impulsive, even if he didnt mean to hurt someone, even if he broke something in a rage. When he is an adult he will face a society that will expect more of him than I do. If he can't comform to those norms, he may end up in prison or a mental institution. I can only empower him so much before sending him into the world. Once he is an adult -- he must take responsibility for those actions, even if he doesnt not fully understand or his intent was not to harm.
It is hard for me to reconcile that this 28 year old woman has gone her whole life without any help. Programs are everywhere. She is not parenting two other children. She was making an adoptoin plan for the twins.
I am sorry she had a bad life. But how long must we allow people to use their bad upbringings to cripple them. My husband comes from a very abusive family -- how ever he is successful, never done drugs, smoked, etc. He is a good father and husband and human being. No one helped him. He actually ate out of garbage cans and slept in cars in college. He knows poverty and abuse, so what happened? he just lucked out?
I think if you smoke and get lung cancer, well who else is there to blame but yourself. Drink like a fish and die of liver disease? Well who else are we to blame.
You mentioned PPD/S. I had it. Not only with my daughter but with the son I adopted (I believe brought on by inducing lactation). The first time around no one helped me. For nine months I suffered, sometimes on the brink of death. With Dylan, I lived next door to a woman I could not stand and thought I had nothing in common with, who literally saved me. I will not get into the emotional and psychological turmoil I was in, but I will say there was something inside of me that prevented me from harming my children. Had I harmed them, even while ill, I still would bear the responsibility.
I have a real problem with shifting blame and not taking responsibility, and this women -- whether mentally ill or addicitons or both -- should have to take responsibility for the death of her child.


<<Being angry that the actions of the mentally ill have harmed us or the people we love is okay, forgetting that their actions were caused by a disease and throwing them to the wolves is another. >>

I am not for throwing this woman to the wolves. Charging her with a crime, having her take responsibility for her negligence and death of her child doesnt have to mean throwing her to the wolves. She needs treatment, and personally I think ordered not to have any more children.

<<I am very sorry your son has FAE. As the child of an alcoholic I spent a lot of time obsessing over FAS and related problems during my time studying human development. I can't imagine how hard day to day life can be and I am so glad your son has had the incredible fortune to find himself in the arms of a loving, AP mamma. I do feel compassion for his bio mother though. What a horrible thing to know that you have done such grievous harm to your own child. What a horrible ting to be so desperate in your life that you would do such harm.>>

Thank you for these kind words. Some days are hard. Dylan has taught me more than anyone in this life has. I also feel compassion for his birthmother, but she knowingly did what she did, knowing she was pregnant. She was already a mother, and knew it was wrong. You can imagine how hard it is to be someone who believes in choice, but at the same time feels a woman should not have the choice or be punished if she makes choices that will seriously damage her child. Of course she has to live with what she did, but really it is Dylan that will suffer more because of her negligence.

Kim

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by Greaseball
And many of these drugs are not safe for pregnant women, according to the Physician's Desk Reference.

The message seems to be that it's OK for doctors to endanger babies, but not for mothers to do so.

And I still don't see how the baby would have lived if the c/s was done.

The baby was alive all three times they told her she needed to have a csection. It doesnt take that long to do one in emergency situations. The equipment is there to resuscitate and incubate. My friends baby was saved after a prolapse cord because of a csection. My own child was saved due to a csection. Despite popular believe on this forum, csections can be necessary to save lives.
The babies had decreased heart tones and were showing signs of distress ( I imagine some of this could be due to drug use) They must have been alarmingly low and with the decreased movement at that stage of pregnancy, there must have been some other medical problems as well. The one reason I can think of from what I could find tonight on the net is that if there was decreased amniotic fluid and positioning of the babies could have been an indicator for having a classical incision. Also, not sure if this has to do with fraternal twins or not, but one baby may not have been getting enough nutrients and would have faired better outside of the womb if they were running out of room. I know my friend who just had twins had one weighing 1.5lbs larger than the other. The smaller twin also had some breathing problems after delivery.
I don't know enought about twin gestation, but from what I have read, I think this baby could have lived had he been delivered when she was told THREE times on THREE Different occassions that she needed to deliver.

[XM]

Originally posted by lollaleeloo
Her lifestyle, her troubled past, her illnesses, and even uncorroborated reports of her personal vanity -- are all being used for the purpose of demonizing her in the eyes of the public, and whaddya know: it's working. Make no mistake, people. This woman mourning her dead baby sits in jail tonight for the sole crime of defying doctors' orders, and there but for the grace of God go any one of us.

Exactly.

I think those of us who are getting caught up in the 'addiction' aspect of it are missing the point that lolla made... that if this woman is prosecuted for murder 1, we are all so fu%#ed. OTF and others, I can understand your anger... it makes me want to cry to hear of women hurting their babies while still in the womb. But that is exactly where the prosecuters want you on this case. That way you won't notice that your rights are just as much at risk as hers.

As someone else said, they are starting with the mamas that no one will stand up for. Then they wil come for the rest of us.

Allison74 said- "Some drugs given for pain in labor, like morophine, are in the same family as cocaine. It would be very easy to 'mix up' the results in a hospital lab... Who knows what they did to this woman, or what they did to her records, or what they told her." I would also like to know more about how the labs were done, and by who.

Damn... sure glad I didn't have a c/b with Xiola, because had she tested positive for any-caine, I might have been the one in jail with the righteous masses screaming for my head to roll... and I'm sure you could get enough dirt on me to extrapolate it into something that would make yourself feel good about your judgement. Nevermind that I have never touched cocaine in my life.

Doing drugs while pregnant is negligent and abusive. But the issue here is murder because she went AMA, not because she was getting high. So whatever your opinions regarding drugs and smoking while pregnant, anyone who ever has or ever will go AMA needs to step up and fight this.

Lauren, you rock. Your compassion and common sense will make you an outstanding midwife (wanna come catch #3? ). You gave some excellent examples of how we really do need to take care of each other, and how one person reaching out can make a difference... I am sure this woman was told a million times to get clean, but I can't help but wonder if anyone ever took the time to reach out to her and say, 'get clean... for yourself... you are worth it, and I care."

[veganmamma]

They were boy/girl fraternal twins.

As a mother to a child with a "mental" illness I work hard to teach my som empathy and right from wrong. I try to teach him, even though it is difficult and he is young, that he has to take responsibility for his actions -- even if they were impulsive, even if he didnt mean to hurt someone, even if he broke something in a rage. When he is an adult he will face a society that will expect more of him than I do. If he can't comform to those norms, he may end up in prison or a mental institution. I can only empower him so much before sending him into the world. Once he is an adult -- he must take responsibility for those actions, even if he doesnt not fully understand or his intent was not to harm.

But see-- you're doing a good job raising him. Her mother was apparently mentally disabled, i just don't see how she could ahve taught her the empathy you work so hard to teach your son.

There is a disorder called Attachment Disorder-- when a child cannot form an attachment to their primary caregiver in infancy, they have problems with empathy, trust, love-- in every relationship for the rest of their lives-- even with psychiatric help. There is no way to fully overcome it. Particularly Severe Attachment Disorder, where not only are they not able to form an attachment, but the person with whom they are trying to form their attachment is abusive to them. This leads to a complete lack of emotion. The inablility to care for others, complete lack of empathy, no conscience, etc. These people do not even feel sorry for themselves, they don't feel anything at all. They can discuss brutal acts of violence that they have commited, and brutal acts of violence commited against them- often by their families, no emotion whatsoever. Someday, children with attachment disorder grow up. God forbid, they have children of their own and they make horrible, horrible mistakes in raising them. They are incapable of loving their own children. Attachment disorder is linked to many of the mental illnesses that are commonly known, bipolar disorder being one of them.

I know it's hard to, but I think everyone should remember that this woman, cold and ugly now, was once a tiny little girl in a harsh, scary world. From what I gather, she didn't have anyone who was able to love her and treat her right-- ever. This is one of the reasons I have compassion for her. What if I had been born into her world? Who would I be today?

Also, re: your dh who has overcome abuse etc., that is fantastic for him- how empowered he must be to have done that. Often times mental illness is hereditary. Meaning, your dh may have had circumstance against him, but not chemical imbalance of the brain. Imagine he had been in those circumstances and not been in complete control of his thoughts and emotions. Things could spiral out of control, furthering his illness which would cause him to act irrationally which would cause his circumstances to get worse, causeing a negative and irrational reaction and so on. Not everyone is bale to easily overcome such challenges. Maybe her IQ is low- I'm guessing your dh has a high IQ, something that helps very much when circumstance has you eating out of the garbage.

[veganmamma]

Originally posted by XM
Lauren, you rock. Your compassion and common sense will make you an outstanding midwife (wanna come catch #3? ). You gave some excellent examples of how we really do need to take care of each other, and how one person reaching out can make a difference... I am sure this woman was told a million times to get clean, but I can't help but wonder if anyone ever took the time to reach out to her and say, 'get clean... for yourself... you are worth it, and I care."

Yes! And I will stay in WA for a month or more to do so! (I'm allowed to attend 2 long distance births a year, per: DP. :LOL)

The last thing you said-- that's the one that matters most-- You are worth it and I care. I don't think anyone said that to her either.

[Greaseball]

Not all drug users can get to a program, if they can't afford it. I know some states have cut funding for residential treatment, and it's so hard to get on state funding anyway...often you can't be covered UNLESS you are also pregnant.

NA and AA are available to everyone for free, but some people need a more structured environment.

We have no way of knowing if this woman had tried to seek help.

I find it interesting that when babies die from mainstream practices like circumcision, formula feeding, or elective inductions/surgery, no one wants to charge anyone with murder; they write it off as bad luck.

[XM]

Originally posted by OnTheFence
The baby was alive all three times they told her she needed to have a csection. It doesnt take that long to do one in emergency situations. The equipment is there to resuscitate and incubate.

For the record, as I said, my daughter was alive when I started pushing, 10 minutes later she was dead. They had called in a crash team while I was pushing, and spent 15 minutes recusiatating her before my doctor pronounced her. I thought she was just hard to start and was shocked when I was told she was really, truly gone. After all, I had done everything my doctor had advised me to... but as we all need to remember, there are no garantees in birth, life, and death.

Casareans do not always save lives, and recusitation does not always succeed. To beleive otherwise is either naive or arrogant.

My understanding is that even in an emergency, it takes 1 hour to prep the patient and assemble the team for a c/s. If anyone with the facts can verify or correct me, please do. But even 30 minutes is a long time when you can lose a baby in less then 10.

Her babies were comprimised because of her lifestyle, she is in jail for going AMA. Who is to say wether or not a c/s may have saved the baby? Not I. And last I checked, God wasn't a registered member of MDC so I don't think there is a single person here that can say definitively that her baby would have lived had she had a c/s.

[XM]

Originally posted by Greaseball
I find it interesting that when babies die from mainstream practices like circumcision, formula feeding, or elective inductions/surgery, no one wants to charge anyone with murder; they write it off as bad luck.

My thoughts exactly.

[StarMama]

T Just don't have #3, XM when I have #2! I want you too Lauren!!

[hotmamacita]

I am home. What a day. I lead a group on Fridays for women who suffered abuse in the childhood and today was our last time together. We met from 1pm-8pm and I am beat.

In reading this thread since I left, I have a lot of things going on in me. I am in horror at some things that have been said. I am confused as to why so many seem so convinced of positions after such limited information from the media--the same media that is attacked in other forums for being deceptive and corrupt. I am delighted at some things that have been said. There are so many good responses where I would have lost my temper.

The most poignant emotion I am feeling right now is awe. I am in awe of XM's posts. XM, you are a courageous, strong, beautiful, tender woman whom I admire deeply. You never cease to amaze me. I thank God for you in my life and for what you offer women.

My heart IS tender towards Melissa Rowland. It just is. I know that my motivation is NOT purely out of some birth choice agenda. I have learned over the years and through much suffering to TRUST my heart. If my heart is tender and I want to encourage someone then I follow my heart.

more tomorrow. I need to go get some sleep.

[pamamidwife]

I wanted to add to this discussion that I feel that the murder charge is a bit over the top.

Just so we all know that I'm with you all on that.

OK.

I just don't have the same ability to look at her like she was making a serious choice that she felt was in the best interest of her babies.

[simonee]

Women of mdc,
many of you know that I spend (too small a part of) my current life lurking and I'm down to only getting into like 2 threads a day. This is one of them for today.

How do you ever expect me to wean?
You beautiful, compassionate, wise, intelligent, funny, incredible women, you... I'm crying right now, for this woman and her babies and her life, and for knowing there's hope out htere with people like Lauren and XM and Greaseball and the new member whose name sounds like Lollapalooza making a case. Thank you ladies. You rule.

(and Zaq, there's a pretty long line for Lauren. You get in right in the back, okay honey? :LOL)

Lauren, Willem was unplanned... if it ever happens again, will you come catch if I buy you the ticket? And stay as long as you like...