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Woman charged with murder after refusing C-section - Page 11

post #201 of 357
I think I can trust ACOG about how long a section takes. They do enough of them to know.
post #202 of 357
i was thinking more along the lines of why they thought the c/s were neccesary, or even emergent... Guess i should have been more clear on that.. And you are right Kama, they SHOULD know how long it takes.. They do appear c/s happy..

The thing is.. I'm not even anti-c/s.. I think they DO save lives.. I don't think they should be the be all end all in birthing, that many times they are portrayed to be.. If i had the OB who did my c/s for my regular OB.. I would NEVER have had a vbac.. She is the most c/s happy OB in Iowa city.. I am sooo thankful I have a very woman oriented OB.. She is great... Almost mid-wife-ish.. (well it's a word now!!!)

anyway.. OT sorry..

Warm Squishy Feelings..

Dyan
post #203 of 357
Quote:
ACOG reports that a stat csection can be done in less than 10 minutes with GA and a classical or T cut incision.
Yes, we all know how unbiased they are.:

But if I had to have a section I'd probably want GA anyway. The thought of lying there awake as I'm being cut open just scares me. See, I'm terrified of surgery; you don't have to be on drugs or mentally ill to be afraid!

Although, with GA, what about the anesthesiologist? What if he is not in the hospital at the time? (Smaller hospitals don't have them waiting around.) So he would have to show up first. And doesn't GA require all sorts of pre-op drugs and special equipment?

I only had GA once, when my wisdom teeth were removed, and it took them an hour to set up all the little thingies. And it didn't even take; I woke up in the middle of the surgery screaming about Hell or something despite the 3 different drugs they had given me. They said if they had given me any more I'd have to be in an OR with a breathing tube.

I think if I were being operated on without anesthesia and I could still move, my self-preservation instinct would take over my mothering instinct. The dentists were able to use physical force to get me to go through the rest of the operation without anesthesia, but having a tooth cut out is nothing like major surgery. I hope I never have to know what that is like.

I don't know why it's thought we are anti-c/s...even I know people whose lives have been saved by them! And I mean for real, not just because they were too big or the mother had been in labor too long.
post #204 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by Pynki
I don't know how far I would trust the ACOG.. These are the same dr's pushing to make VBAC's not a viable option for women who have had a c/s, and have recently said the c/s for no medical reason isn't unethical..

I trust them as a whole about as far as i could throw them..
Actually what I read concurs with other things I have read as well. My planned csection took 30 minutes from the time I got in the OR till the time they rolled me out. My epidural was put in 10 min prior. With my emergency csection, while a longer surgery, I was cut fairly quickly after it was determined the baby needed to come out now. Maybe it depends on the doctor doing the cutting.
post #205 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by Greaseball
Yes, we all know how unbiased they are.:

But if I had to have a section I'd probably want GA anyway. The thought of lying there awake as I'm being cut open just scares me. See, I'm terrified of surgery; you don't have to be on drugs or mentally ill to be afraid!

Although, with GA, what about the anesthesiologist? What if he is not in the hospital at the time? (Smaller hospitals don't have them waiting around.) So he would have to show up first. And doesn't GA require all sorts of pre-op drugs and special equipment?

I only had GA once, when my wisdom teeth were removed, and it took them an hour to set up all the little thingies. And it didn't even take; I woke up in the middle of the surgery screaming about Hell or something despite the 3 different drugs they had given me. They said if they had given me any more I'd have to be in an OR with a breathing tube.

I think if I were being operated on without anesthesia and I could still move, my self-preservation instinct would take over my mothering instinct. The dentists were able to use physical force to get me to go through the rest of the operation without anesthesia, but having a tooth cut out is nothing like major surgery. I hope I never have to know what that is like.

I don't know why it's thought we are anti-c/s...even I know people whose lives have been saved by them! And I mean for real, not just because they were too big or the mother had been in labor too long.
Greaseball, I am afraid of surgery too! TERRIFIED. Show me an IV and I want to pass out. But I would not do GA, even though I did consider it for repeat, because it is more dangerous to mother and baby than a spinal or epidural. I don't know what they give as far as pre-op drugs to GA patients. I didn't have any preop drugs with my last but I had an epidural. I know that you did get the tube, oxygen, all that with GA. When my enighbor gets home I will ask her to look on her op report to see what they gave her.

I was still able to move during my first csection. In fact two nurses held my legs down (my arms were strapped down). You do have an over powering urge to leap off the table. Its pretty horrfic and I wouldnt want anyone to go through that.
post #206 of 357

hopefully i won't be a threadkiller...

nak
i just heard about this this morning..
as an obgyn i want to comment
1.to be charged with murder is wrong. a person has the right to refuse a csection even if the baby is dying right there on the monitor. even if it makes the doctor ill to see the baby die. it's happened. it is assault and battery to perform surgery without consent.
2. any pt can leave against medical advice at any time. i've had people leave ama at 6 cm, go smoke, and show up again!
3. you can't reason with someone who is floridly psychotic. you just can't. nor can you expect them to think rationally such as"if i leave ama my twins could die." they are literally in a different world.
4.if you feel the mom isn't competent to make the decision to refuse a csection you call the hospital ethics board and try for a psych eval and court order. why didn't anyone do this?
5.on the flip side i have had pts demand csections because of various reasons, even after i tell them there is no indication and tell them the increased risks of major surgery. do they have the right to request as well as refuse csection. i believe that is what generated the acog ethics statement on elective csections.

i have had a psychotic pt with twins refuse all exams and showed up at 22 wks completely dilated.
i have had a woman from a country where the male head of family makes all the decisions refuse csection until he could be reached by phone with the knowledge her baby was dying... it died before we could reach him.
oh the things i have seen.
bottom line is this woman should not be pg in the first place, but again you can't make her use contraception or get sterilized or take psych meds etc- it all is the same issue, once you start where do you stop? if a pg woman doesn't wear her seatbelt after i tell her to, gets in a wreck and ejectedf and baby dies, does she get charged?
oh and i have had several crack users who abrupted and had stillbirths - believe it or not they are very sad usually; the drug just had a hold on them... they didn't set out to kill their babies- they just couldn't stop using.
sorry for typos-typing one handed- i have a lot more thoughts but getting sick of typing.
edited for typos-twice!
post #207 of 357
the time it takes from deciding to do a c until they start the incision, is different from the length of time it takes to do the operation itself (from incison to suturing...) Two different time frames...it just looks like some of us are talking about two different things.
post #208 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by Clarity
the time it takes from deciding to do a c until they start the incision, is different from the length of time it takes to do the operation itself (from incison to suturing...) Two different time frames...it just looks like some of us are talking about two different things.
I was talking about in my ACOG post about the actual cut being done and getting the baby out.

My first csection was an hour and 15min long. My second was 30min from start to finish.
post #209 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by Zaq001
Stand up for this woman without regard to her drug abuse, her mental state, and her lifestyle. Stand up for her because she has no voice, and pretty soon none of you will too.

Stand up for her because it is right and necessary. Give her compassion in your heart.

But for the grace of God go I.
Zaq, I am so moved by your post. I have been following this thread as well, but feel really too emotional to post. I cannot remain calm on this one. It hits home; my little sister's baby died of SIDS after one month, and she was a drug user, smoker, all the other things that some would flay her for. She is not an evil person. But that story is another time and place.... one I can't tell because I am still too broken over it-- for all involved.

Compassion is the key here. Today she-- MR-- is a childless mother, sitting alone in a jail cell, with the weight of her decisions and the ghost of a dead baby hanging over her. And now she is becoming a pawn in what will most certainly be a political spectacle. There is much suffering here mammas, even despite what you read in the paper. She is still human.
post #210 of 357
Yes, I wonder what we all would think if drug use were not a factor.
post #211 of 357
Simone-- I would be honored to attend the birth of your next possible oops baby! I would be your housekeeper and postpartum doula, too and love every second of it!

I am honored just to know you MDC women, let alone be realistically or jokingly invited to your births.
post #212 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by IslandMamma


Compassion is the key here. Today she-- MR-- is a childless mother, sitting alone in a jail cell, with the weight of her decisions and the ghost of a dead baby hanging over her. And now she is becoming a pawn in what will most certainly be a political spectacle. There is much suffering here mammas, even despite what you read in the paper. She is still human.
IM. I grieve for your story.

What you said is so true. Thank you for saying it in the midst of your emotion and anger. I TOTALLY AGREE.

post #213 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by Elphaba


If her only concern was a scar, then she's a pretty messed up woman. As in, I would have recommended a psych eval.

But isn't this what society has taught our daughters? That looks precede health? Either our health or that of another? Sounds like she was merely living up to what she has been taught.

Truly sad

And ITA with Islandmama
post #214 of 357

Re: hopefully i won't be a threadkiller...

Quote:
Originally posted by aquarianangela
nak
i just heard about this this morning..
as an obgyn i want to comment...
4.if you feel the mom isn't competent to make the decision to refuse a csection you call the hospital ethics board and try for a psych eval and court order. why didn't anyone do this?
So there are procedures for situations like this. Thanks for clarifying this. I also wondered why the doctors didn't try to get a court order to save that baby earlier if they thought he was in imminent danger.

This whole case just makes a joke of consent though. Consent or face the threat of murder charges? How is it consent if you have threats like this held over your head.
post #215 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by OnTheFence
She was hiding something, drug abuse is what I believe.
if that is true, then instead of using this horrible event to demonize this woman in an election year, let's use her story to change drug politcy and stop wasting tens of billions of dollars burning bushes in colombia so we can spend them on getting addicts into quality rehab here at home. just how many addicts could be helped by the cost of this prosecution alone?

i don't know what makes me sadder, the dead babies and broken mother, or yet another example of how quick and willing to judge and destroy our society has become. we have become a truly vengeful people...

post #216 of 357
I have been told it's virtually impossible to find a drug rehab bed for a pregnant woman... don't know why though.
post #217 of 357
okay now baby is asleep and i can use 2 hands to type!

wombat yes there are procedures to try to get court orders for csections. it is usually very difficult which it should be because after all you are trying to force unwanted surgery, with all its risks, on an unwilling person,psychotic or not. also given how fast a fetal heart rate can start plummeting and then stop (for instance an abruption caught on the monitor) a lot of the time you simply don't have the luxury of the time needed to find a judge and advocate for the fetus.

i don't know what happened in this case. i do not feel particularly compassionate towards this woman. however, if the doctor who did the ultrasound and noted low fluid and fetal distress did not try to hold her there and seek a court order, i can easily imagine why. 1. he (or she!) was the doctor assigned that night to treat "unreferred patients" i.e. those without an ob or those who come to a hospital where their ob doesn't 2. without an established relationship with her he probably didn't argue when she left ama after he recommended a csection - less trouble for him. however if he really thought she was psychotic then he should have made the effort, no matter what a PITA it is, to get her evaluated by psychiatry etc as mentally incompetent. unfortunately the only way to place a "psych hold" on someone is if they are judged a danger to themselves or others; the fetus is not given the rights of a live person so this wouldn't work. only incompetence to make your own medical decisions would.

this would kill me if this had been my patient. i often joke that i have two patients in the room - the mom and the fetus. however, i would NEVER operate without consent unless the person was unable to give it (ie unconscious, dying etc) and i felt it was necessary. if the person won't give consent, i will do my best to try to convince her. it is still her body and i just can't believe this woman, no matter how unlikeable, is being charged with murder. the next step is outlawing abortion on the same grounds.

i think this case also illustrates the sad state of mentally ill (ie schizophrenic) people who won't take their meds. perhaps if she was stabilized on meds she would have 1. taken birth control or gotten her tubes tied 2. if she had gotten pg obtained regular prenatal care and 3. consented to a csection when problems were noted. of course, this leads back to the question - is it right to force schizophrenics to take meds if they don't want to?

and btw all the drug and alcohol use stuff may have been an attempt by her to self-medicate.

i had a pt once who was about 21 and in college. she was very bright. she had a 2 yr old. she suffered a psychotic break and became manic. it was so sad. i knew her as her "normal" self and to see her psychotic was heartbreaking. that is why i say you can't expect someone who is psychotic to be reasonable or even likeable. they just ...can't. it's not their fault that they are suffering from delusions etc.

i am reminded of that lady in tx who killed her children... evidently now that she is on appropriate meds she suffers greatly from the knowledge that she did this.. however while she was psychotic i doubt you would have been able to convince her that she shouldn't have killed her kids. in her delusion this was the right thing to do....

just some thoughts - sorry so long.
post #218 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by OnTheFence
While I dont want my rights to make choices for myself or children taken away, I also feel something has to be done to protect these babies.
Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. Once you start allowing the government (lawyers and politicians) tocontrol some aspects of some people's lives, you open the door to allowing them to control that aspect of your life as well. Either the mother's rights come first, or the unborn child's, but it MUST be the same in every case. Not one way or the other depending on whether you think the mother made a good or bad choice.
post #219 of 357
Quote:
I have been told it's virtually impossible to find a drug rehab bed for a pregnant woman... don't know why though.
It must depend on the facility. In my hometown there is a center that is mainly for pregnant and parenting women, and it's long-term, around 6 to 9 months, instead of the usual 1 to 3. They accept state aid too. It's harder to get in if you're not pregnant or parenting.

You can also have your children stay with you, but only if you have just one child between the ages of 5 and 8, which leaves out a lot of women.

There is a long-term center in my town where some of the women have been there for over a year, and can have younger children and babies.

Of course, all places are likely to have huge waiting lists.
post #220 of 357
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