Woman charged with murder after refusing C-section - Page 12

[its_our_family]

I haven't read all of the responses either but I'm not sure how they can charge her with murder for a couple reasons.

In this country it is legal to have 3rd trimester abortions (I know the big "a" word) and we still have the right to refuse medical intervention. Until those things change I don't see how they can say what she did was wrong in the eyes of the law.

it was and will always be morally wrong but legally I'm not too sure. I would like nothing more than to see this women get in trouble but that is my moral side and the mom in me.

[lotusdebi]

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/...35.htm&sc=1110

[hotmamacita]

somemama posted this on TAO.

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03142004/utah/147639.asp

Look at the last sentence. It looks like she also shows desire to do what is best for her child.

[Tanibani]

National Advocates for Pregnant Women

NAPW Commentary on Murder Arrest of Pregnant Woman Who Refused a C-Section

Dang, I can't find the link, but I need to edit this down. Here ya go:

Today both the law and medicine agree that coerced medical interventions on pregnant women are an abuse of medical and state authority and that while pregnant women do not always make the right decision, in America, it is the person on whom the surgery is to be performed who gets to decide. In spite of this, Utah prosecutors apparently think that a pregnant woman who exercises her constitutional and common-law right to refuse medical advice can be arrested for murder. This is not only a clear misuse of the law, it is dangerous to children and fundamentally dehumanizing to pregnant women and their families.

Lynn M. Paltrow
Executive Director
National Advocates for Pregnant Women
153 Waverly Place, 6th Floor
New York, New York 10014
212-255-9252
917-921-7421
212-254-9679 (fax)
[e-mail]
www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org

You can read entire statement here. Sadly, the whole statement is not on their page anymore.
http://bbs.babycenter.com/board/baby...096745#8926344

[hotmamacita]

THANK YOU!

[djs_girl517]

As I read these articles, I become more and more convinced that someone in the medical or pro-life community saw these court-ordered c-sections as a way to attack women's birth and reproductive rights in a round-about manner. If that's the case, it appears they couldn't have picked a better "criminal".

While I think most, if not all, of us believe she made poor choices in her use of drugs and alcohol, those choices are not why she is being charged with criminal homicide. The prosecutors and doctors are claiming she caused the death of her child when she refused medical advice....

I know a lot of you have said you don't like or agree with slippery-slope theories. Quite frankly, this precedent scares the crap out of me.

[hotmamacita]

Originally posted by djs_girl517
As I read these articles, I become more and more convinced that someone in the medical or pro-life community saw these court-ordered c-sections as a way to attack women's birth and reproductive rights in a round-about manner. If that's the case, it appears they couldn't have picked a better "criminal".

Maybe. But I tend to think it is sheer typical and historical arrogance of the doctors who request and the judges who grant. And it is out of control. THIS IS OUT OF CONTROL.

The DA in SLC has lost his mind. These charges make no sense.

Mamas, I can't sit back on this one. Not only am I writing to Miss Rowland to encourage her but I am going to get involved in other ways.

Tanibani--thank you gain for posting that. If you find any other statements will you post them here?

Peace, love and activism,

[OnTheFence]

While some of you feel more pity for her, I become even stronger in my stance.

Too bad this woman was not sterilized after she had the last child. Abortion would have been better in this pregnancy. This new baby girl is going to have a horrendous life due to her birthmothers actions. Where is the support for this child? Who is going to be encouraging the new parents of this child when they are faced with the multitude of problems because of this one persons actions?
I dont agree with the first degree murder charge, but I Think she should be charged with something and I hope she gets her tubes tied or her uterus ripped out. If she gets out of jail she will get knocked up again and ruin more children.

After reading that she hit and punched her child over a pack of cigs that she couldnt buy, I wanted to vomit.

[hotmamacita]

Originally posted by OnTheFence
While some of you feel more pity for her, I become even stronger in my stance.

Too bad this woman was not sterilized after she had the last child. Abortion would have been better in this pregnancy. This new baby girl is going to have a horrendous life due to her birthmothers actions. Where is the support for this child? Who is going to be encouraging the new parents of this child when they are faced with the multitude of problems because of this one persons actions?
I dont agree with the first degree murder charge, but I Think she should be charged with something and I hope she gets her tubes tied or her uterus ripped out. If she gets out of jail she will get knocked up again and ruin more children.

After reading that she hit and punched her child over a pack of cigs that she couldnt buy, I wanted to vomit.

IF what you read IS, in fact, true. I am angry and grieved for her child. And maybe this is why she felt it better that her children be at their grandparents house.

But I did read your post stating that you want to sterilize a human being and you hope she gets her uterus ripped out.

I am horrified, OTF. You have no idea what is true and what is not true here and yet you are so ready to have another woman's uterus ripped from her body. I am completely horrified. Sterilization? Oh, OTF.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--off to Church. +++ I'll check back in tomorrow, mamas.

[Unreal]

otf--
and what if that is done to her
and she goes to rehab and gets cleaned up
and is a productive member of society
and wants to have kids

and can't

because 'We The People' (hahaha) had "her tubes tied or her uterus ripped out" without her consent






edit cause I was chasing a kid and typing....

[applejuice]

Thank you Tanibani for that article.

[DreamerMama]

I will be having a lot more time to help. I have decided to spend my energy elsewhere and not arguing with certain people on MDC. I feel my energy and time could be used in a much better way . It makes me very sad to see some of the heartless things I have read here. It makes me very sad to see some of us so divided on this issue, the one issue, of humanity. She is a human, a mother, a daughter, and a woman. She is a sick person in need of help. End of story.

Jenny

[wombat]

OMG this woman has some history. I just read veganmama's links.

I was just reading up on Oppositional Defiant Disorder

A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least six months during which four or more of the following are present:
1. Often loses temper
2. often argues with adults
3. often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules
4. often deliberately annoys people
5. often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
6. is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
7. is often angry and resentful
8. is often spiteful and vindictive

http://www.klis.com/chandler/pamphlet/oddcd/about.htm

I know this was her childhood diagnosis but doesn't sound like she's changed much. Having a problem like this, among her other problems - it's absolutely obvious why this woman doesn't have custody of any of her other children. So if she can't be trusted with custody of her living children, why was she entrusted as guardian to her living, but yet unborn children? I'm no advocate for the State intervening in pregnant women's medical decisions but this is an obvious case where this woman was not competent to make those decisions. I sympathise with the OB staff that had to deal with her, I can't imagine they would have been so experienced in dealing with a patient like this. I just can't help feeling than some supportive psychiatric care instead of the OBs scare tactics might have resulted in a better outcome. The murder charge is just a last ditch attempt by the legal and medical profession to gain control, when it's far too late for that.

I don't really think there is anyone to blame in this situation. It's a legal and moral minefield. But if the State wants to send a message, providing intensive and more appropriate prenatal care to women in these kinds of situations would be a much better message.

[LynnE73]

quote:
Originally posted by OnTheFence
While some of you feel more pity for her, I become even stronger in my stance.

Too bad this woman was not sterilized after she had the last child. Abortion would have been better in this pregnancy. This new baby girl is going to have a horrendous life due to her birthmothers actions. Where is the support for this child? Who is going to be encouraging the new parents of this child when they are faced with the multitude of problems because of this one persons actions?
I dont agree with the first degree murder charge, but I Think she should be charged with something and I hope she gets her tubes tied or her uterus ripped out. If she gets out of jail she will get knocked up again and ruin more children.

After reading that she hit and punched her child over a pack of cigs that she couldnt buy, I wanted to vomit.

OTF, you are not consistent... you don't think she should be charged for murder, yet you want her uterus ripped out? Isn't that as brutal as forcing her to have a c-section in the first place? I think your judgement is clouded and quite frankly f'in ridiculous. :
Is this woman a parenting nightmare? If all the things (previous charges filed against her) that we've read about her are true, then yes, IMO she is a piece of sh*t and she should get in "trouble" for something, like a baby who tested positive for cocaine, an illegal substance. But alcohol is not illegal and shouldn't even come into the equation. The "law" has NO RIGHT to FORCE anyone to have unwanted surgery. Medical treatment should be a choice. Also, what about natural selection? You know, only the strong survive... had she had no medical intervention then maybe both her babies would have died and you wouldn't be posting about how it's "too bad she wasn't sterilized after her last child." Which again would have been unwanted medical intervention.
Although the birth mother won't be taking care of this new baby girl I'm going to venture a guess that the baby is already immensely loved and well cared for. Hell, maybe she was adopted by someone (as yourself) with enough gumption to nurse this baby.
-Lynn

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by hotmamacita
IF what you read IS, in fact, true. I am angry and grieved for her child. And maybe this is why she felt it better that her children be at their grandparents house.

But I did read your post stating that you want to sterilize a human being and you hope she gets her uterus ripped out.

I am horrified, OTF. You have no idea what is true and what is not true here and yet you are so ready to have another woman's uterus ripped from her body. I am completely horrified. Sterilization? Oh, OTF.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--off to Church. +++ I'll check back in tomorrow, mamas.

I am not going to sit here and act like I think its okay for drug addicts and drunks to breed. And that is what she is doing. She is getting high and drinking and damaging other human beings. I dont think she should be allowed to have children. Sorry. But I do think people like this should be sterilized. She abused her first children, she abused her twins in utero. The baby girl is going to be damaged physically, developmentally and mentally for the rest of her life. Sorry but I dont think women who continue on this way should have children.

I dont think its harsh and evil, trust me its no worse than what the so called gentle mommas here are sending to my email or PM box these days. :

[dado]

Originally posted by OnTheFence

Too bad this woman was not sterilized after she had the last child.

instead of wanting to help someone in dire need, you want to physically destroy them.



res ipsa loquitor.

[Evergreen]

OTF, though I do not agree with everything you have said regarding this matter. I wanted to offer some support. You obviously care so much about the innocent children of this world (the ones who need advocates the most).

This situation is depressing and upsetting on so many levels. I do find myself hating this woman with great intensity despite not knowing anymore facts than what I have gathered through this thread.

I mentioned the slippery slope theory earlier on in this thread. I do not usually agree with this theory. FOr example, I do not think allowing homosexual marriage will lead to people being able to marry their dogs. I do, however think, that this case will set a standard for allowing forced ceserean births. OTF, you had two justified and nesc. c-births. I had one long yoni-birth. Had I been in a hospital they would have really pushed me to have one. I was at 2 cm for nearly 30 hours, that is considered 'failure to progress' it is a common reason to preform a ceserean. Now that this story is circulating, doctors, social workers, and the general public will have a preconceived notion that any woman who refused a ceserean birth is out to harm her child, whereas most mothers who refuse surgical births are actually advocating for the unborn.

I wish I could be as passionatly supportive as hotmamacita, but I can not. Though, I am saying in my head "innocent until proven guilty" my heart that loves my daughter with the intensity I am sure we all feel toward our innocent children is (to my dismay) screaming "fry her!"

If what I have read is true, I am saddened and shocked and disgusted. I can not imagine living her life and treating my children (both living and yet unborn as she has). The first issue here though, is can someone be proscecuted for refusing cesearen. The answer should be NO. Lets not let the horrible things this woman has done cloud our perceptions of the real issue here.

[dado]

anybody know the source of this quote?

Whereas the hereditarily healthy families have for the most part adopted a policy of having only one or two children, countless numbers of inferiors and those suffering from hereditary conditions are reproducing unrestrainedly while their sick and asocial offspring burden the community.

grounds for action included, schizophrenia, epilepsy and the catch-all "feeblemindedness". a diagnose from one accredited doctor was enough to carry through the procedure. before this policy, America was the world leader in forced sterilization. looks like some are looking for us to come full circle.

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by Unreal
otf--
and what if that is done to her
and she goes to rehab and gets cleaned up
and is a productive member of society
and wants to have kids

and can't

because 'We The People' (hahaha) had "her tubes tied or her uterus ripped out" without her consent






edit cause I was chasing a kid and typing....

The likely hood if this happening is slim to none. I spend a lot of time reading, researching this very issue. Due to her history, supposed diagnosis, etc. she is unlikely to possess the skills to be a good mother. She doesnt have a conscience in my opinion. She abused her other children, then went on to get pregnant, and do drugs and drink, and ignore medical advice that could have saved her other child.
If she wants to be a productive member of society later, than great, but I dont think she should have children. EVER AGAIN. I think three times you are out. You beat kids -- you dont get to keep them. Fill your body with drugs and alcohol while pregnant that are not only lethal to the unborn but causes permanent brain damamage and physical damage for the rest of their life -- well you shouldnt have any more kids. EVER AGAIN.
Past behavior predicts future behavior.
I have talked to women like her, I have dealt with women like her -- they do not need to be having children, over and over again. If they do not abuse in one area, the abuse in another. I'm not going to apolgize for caring more about the offspring of these women than the women themselves. I am parenting one of these children from someone who was reckless and irresponsible with their unborn child with full knowledge it was damaging.
I really dont care if she wants to have kids later and is clean, she has had four children, one dead, one damaged for life due to drugs and alcohol, and two others that were abused, one beaten in the face -- sorry but she had her chance at mothering and she blew it. If she wants to take care of something later on-- grow a garden or have some houseplants. If she can take care of that without killing it off maybe she can graduate to a pet.

I will say this, if their is a fund collected to pay her to consent to being sterilized, I will contribute.

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by dado
instead of wanting to help someone in dire need, you want to physically destroy them.



res ipsa loquitor.

So you want her to continue to physically destroy other human beings?

Do any of you care that she did permanent damage to her child's brain with drugs and alcohol? That she altered their physical developmental, possibly even the structure of her face, her hearing and eyesight? Or that she will suffer from learning disability and might even be mentally retarded? Does anyone care that she physically destroyed her children? It sure doenst seem that way!