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Woman charged with murder after refusing C-section - Page 5

post #81 of 357
One of the many versions of the story mentioned that it mostly seems like a breakdown between physician and patient. I totally agree. If she thought that she was getting a T cut and didn't want it and siad so, the doctor could have tried to get down to her reasons. If she didnt' want that cut, h/esh/e should have discussed other options (ie. horizontal cut) or discussed why it was necessary (had that cut before or whatever). I have no knowledge on the dos and don'ts of c-sections, but I know that the doctor, if he/she cared about his patient and his patient's babies, he/she would have had more info on her decision than a questionable concern for her vaniety. He/she would have suspected drug abuse, mental illness, etc. and done something about that or put that into perspective.

Maybe I am expecting too much of an ob/gyn, but if they are going to throw their scare tactics and possibly throw every woman's ability to make sound judgements about their own body, then I am going to have to hold them to a higher standard!
post #82 of 357
Wow.

I have read most all of the posts but none of the links (just can't go there this week) and I cannot begin to tell you all how disturbing this is to me.

My daughter died during the 10 minutes it took me to push her out. Her birth was in the hospital but completely unmedicated (we did Bradley). I was stuck in transition for almost 4 hours because I had .5 lip of cervix and was being told not to push till the lip was gone, my doctor was asleep down the hall. When she finally woke up and came in to check me, she held back the lip, and Xiola was in her hands minutes later. When I started pushing, she had a heartbeat. When she emerged, she was blue and still.

I have actually had people lay the blame on me, saying, "that's why natural birth is so dangerous, dear!". Mind you, I was in a HOSPITAL and we were monitoring FHT with a doppler. My care was ludicrous. My nurses left out FHTs that looked suspect (read-incriminating) and they complained that they were having trouble getting FHTs because of my size. Mind you, my midwife with ds had NO problems getting FHTs with her wood pinard (fetoscope) and I was the same size. The nurses also never told me that I had a cervix that easily stretched up to 1cm, which would have meant that I could have pushed through that last half centimeter easily (I pushed through more then that with ds).

My ability to make sound decisions for my daughter was comprimised by the arrogance and lack of skill of the staff that was supposed to help me birth my child. Even as I insisted that something was wrong, they kept telling me she was fine... which, as I can see in her file, was a lie. If I would have been given all of the information about what was going on instead of just what the nurses chose to share with me, perhaps she would be with us now. My doulas were worse then useless, they were hired to keep the nurses honest, and were too busy playing midwife-wannabee while my doctor slept (this position! no, this position!).

We had over three hours that my body so badly wanted to birth my child, and I was told to wait? Nothing hurts worse then trying to not push when your body knows it needs to. But I was trusting my caregivers to be honest with me and so I didn't push. It is so hard to live with the knowledge that I should have trusted my gut and pushed anyway. Would my daughter be here right now if I would have had a c-section? Maybe. Would my daughter be here had I been disclosed al the details I needed to make a good choice? Would my daughter be here had I told the nurses and doulas to f&*% off and started pushing anyway? I feel certain of it.

With my son's birth (a homebirth, understandably I wanted to stay out of a hospital), the last my midwife checked me I was at 8 1/2 and verrrry stretchy, so a few moments later when I felt the urge to push, I went for it and he was born 23 minutes later. I probably wasn't complete, but I certainly didn't tear my cervix (which is the threat the nurses were using to get me to not push). Since ds was my second, I knew my body better and to trust what it was telling me above all else. If there is only one lesson I have learned from my daughter's death and my son's birth, it is to trust myself and my body.

I guess the points I am trying to make are that hospitals are neither the most knowledgeable, nor the most honest, about birth. Anything that this hospital says I will take with a block of salt because their insurance company is telling them to cover their asses. This may even have been preemptive anyway so that the blame would be on the woman and not the hospital. Also, if this woman was giving her babies up for adoption, did the prospective parents being pissed that they are only getting one baby now (when they may well have paid more in fees to adopt twins) instead of two have anything to do with this? Seems pretty vengeful to me either way.

Wether or not this woman was keeping her babies, she needs to be at home, healing and grieving (the death as well as the adoption) and not in jail. Making an example of this woman like this is only going to make women who are already on the edge (mental illness, addiction, etc) even less likely to seek care for their pregnancies and even more babies will suffer for it. This is a terrifying precedent for women everywhere. In my state, you can get an abortion up to 24 weeks. So, I can choose to kill my baby when it is viable, but I can't have a choice in how my baby is born (I had a hell of a time finding a HB midwife after losing my dd)? Get real. When women fought for reproductive freedom, they failed to realize how crucial it is to have the freedom of choice in when and how we birth our babies.

It makes my blood run cold to think that some zealot who wants to teach pregnant women a lesson about questioning a hospital's 'authority' would send this woman to jail. Hospitals are proving their lack of honesty and compassion every day. They NEED their authority questioned. A vaginal birth in the hospital with no meds at all is $3,000. A casarean birth is ten times that much, not even counting any time in the NICU (which it seems c/s babies get more often then v/b babies). Hospitals make so much more money when women are not given choices in birth. There has been a revival of interest in the art of midwifery and hospitals are scared.

Convicting this poor woman (who should have been supported better by society instead of persecuted by it, IMO) is only going to set a precedent (combined with the moronic new ruling from the AMA about elective c/s) that stands to make hospitals MILLIONS of dollars more then they already do on birth. How frightening, and sickening, to think that in the midst of my deepest grief the police could have dragged me off to jail because I did not choose a c/s and my daughter died... nevermind the fact that I was never offered one... hell, I was never even told she was in trouble. This is just so wrong on so many levels.

Hotmamacita, I am also interested in giving this poor woman my support as well... let's talk about it more after next week, when I am a little more myself again.

Xiola's (and Ezra's) Mama
post #83 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by kama'aina mama
Well a huge part of the problem is that medical personel tell pregnant women this all the damn time when it simply isn't true. So now they get to cry "wolf" as often as they like and on the rare ocasion they are sadly proven to be correct the WOMAN is prosecuted? Just a couple months ago in New Jersey a hospital told a woman teh exact same thing. She left and they got a court order giving them the right to section her. Because otherwise "the baby would die"! Well, no one told the baby that because she was born just fine vaginally a few days later at another hospital.
Yes, and there are also cases like mine when they don't bother telling you that there is anything wrong. Hospitals do not have the highest integrity, nor the most comprehensive knowledge and understanding of birth. This double standard is ridiculous... so if they're wrong it's my fault, and if they're right and I think they're wrong it's still my fault? Please!

Coleslaw, I think you are expecting too much of an OB/GYN, but I'm glad for you that your experiences have been good enough that your expectations are that high!

Also remember, folks, that for a woman on pregnancy medicaid (read, most low income pregnant women) that the medicare only pays a portion of the total bill. So the hospitals have a financial interest in making the most expensive care decisions for their lower-income patients. My doctor gave me soooo many NSTs and U/Ss with Xiola... I later talked to a mama who had P/E and she ad maybe 3 NSTs and one U/S, but she had private insurance. My doc was not making as much per proceedure, so she did more proceedures to make up for it... all in the name of safety. When I questioned it, she would invoke fear (well, we just need to make sure she's doing all right) and of course I would give in, out of fear for my sweet dd.

With Ezra's pregnancy, I had one U/S at 18 weeks for my mental health and no doppler ever. But I also had a midwife who was more concerned with supporting my pregnancy with nutrition and love then with watching me like a bug in a jar, waiting to find something wrong. As a UCer would point out, when you are looking for trouble, it tends to find you.
post #84 of 357
XM, thank you for sharing Xiola's story. ((Hugs))
post #85 of 357
Contact info for the DA's office involved in the case. Includes phone and fax numbers.

http://www.districtattorney.slco.org...s/justice.html

Kent Morgan is the one quoted in the Deseret News article. In their online system, her earlier child endagerment charge is listed, but her murder charge throws an error. (irony, yes?) It looks like the birth was Jan 13, she was jailed and charge with endangerment at that time...they only just added the murder charge. She's been in jail 2 months.

http://www.slco.org/DADaily/DaActiveCase
Rowland, Melissa Anne
two charges
4000843 (child endangerment)
4004311 (murder...if you type it in by case number you'll see it.)
post #86 of 357
I imagine that...

...the day is coming in which the state will monitor all women of childbearing age...

...when a woman is identified as pregnant, she will be put into a special state institution and monitored for diet, nutrients, health, habits, and exercise. All interactions will be videotaped....

...that all pregnant women will stay in this place and be monitored continuously for blood pressure, glucose levels, weight, iron levels, exercise, sleep, reading material, musical appreciation, and anything else that can impact the well-being of the embryo/fetus/newborn. Parenting classes are mandatory and failure to complete them will be detrimental to the woman taking her child home after delivery...

...that all women will be forced to deliver there on the terms of the state and released only after the birth of the child...

...the state ob will determine the method of delivery...

...all babies will receive vitamin K, silver nitrate, vaxes, formula, sugar water...

...the state will decided if the woman is to take the baby home or leave the baby there to be adopted into the general population...

NOt to stir up trouble, but the irony for me is that she could probably have decided to have a late term abortion and everything would have been fine.

This is really worse than Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, in which babies are cultured in vitro and gestated in bottles with nutrients to determine their station in life. How very sad that our society sees women and women's responsibilities in this light...
post #87 of 357
I'm so confused.


So a fetus is not separate from the mother if she chooses to kill it intentionally via abortion, but is considered an entirely separate person if it dies naturally while in the womb? A mother is responsible for a stillborn but not an abortion?


And I thought I was risking a lot by fighting for my HBAC. Thank goodness I wasn't charged with child endangerment.
post #88 of 357
To understan more about this trend regarding criminal charges and fetal rights -

national right to life org resource page on fetal rights legislation
http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_victims/index.html

two quick pro-choice oriented sites...not as well organized but I was in a googling hurry:

http://www.aclu.org/ReproductiveRigh...ID=15115&c=144
http://www.reproductiverights.org/hill_pri_uvva.html
post #89 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by dado
is that really the issue here? we're talking about massively invasive surgery. i don't see what difference her reason makes, civilized societies simply do not cut open the bodies of their citizens without willing consent.
thank you.
post #90 of 357
Applejuice, I have the same nightmare.

XM, thank you so much for sharing your story.

If you say, she's being charged with murder because she did drugs, or because she was bipolar, then I bet you believe you could never be charged with murder for refusing a c-section because you don't do dugs and you're not bipolar.

Everybody know the famous saying, they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew?

They're coming for the mamas first who no one will speak up for.
post #91 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by XM
Wether or not this woman was keeping her babies, she needs to be at home, healing and grieving (the death as well as the adoption) and not in jail. Making an example of this woman like this is only going to make women who are already on the edge (mental illness, addiction, etc) even less likely to seek care for their pregnancies and even more babies will suffer for it. This is a terrifying precedent for women everywhere. In my state, you can get an abortion up to 24 weeks. So, I can choose to kill my baby when it is viable, but I can't have a choice in how my baby is born (I had a hell of a time finding a HB midwife after losing my dd)? Get real. When women fought for reproductive freedom, they failed to realize how crucial it is to have the freedom of choice in when and how we birth our babies.

It makes my blood run cold to think that some zealot who wants to teach pregnant women a lesson about questioning a hospital's 'authority' would send this woman to jail. Hospitals are proving their lack of honesty and compassion every day. They NEED their authority questioned. A vaginal birth in the hospital with no meds at all is $3,000. A casarean birth is ten times that much, not even counting any time in the NICU (which it seems c/s babies get more often then v/b babies). Hospitals make so much more money when women are not given choices in birth. There has been a revival of interest in the art of midwifery and hospitals are scared.

Convicting this poor woman (who should have been supported better by society instead of persecuted by it, IMO) is only going to set a precedent (combined with the moronic new ruling from the AMA about elective c/s) that stands to make hospitals MILLIONS of dollars more then they already do on birth. How frightening, and sickening, to think that in the midst of my deepest grief the police could have dragged me off to jail because I did not choose a c/s and my daughter died... nevermind the fact that I was never offered one... hell, I was never even told she was in trouble. This is just so wrong on so many levels.
XM~That was so very well said, I couldn't have said it better.

Your story touched me so deeply I send you peace and love to your family. No one should ever have to go through a death of a child. Certainly, no one should EVER be persecuted after the fact.

It is a dangerous dangerous time to be having babies. My midwife is so scared of losing a baby and being sued, she has to be overly cautious to the point of being overly medical. It makes me nuts to think that women can be jailed for not having a c-sec. Who does that help? I am sure it helps the doctors, nurses and hospital.:
post #92 of 357
Granted, there is a fine line here. Do we fear that the law will not see the difference between the woman who recently refused a c-section and went on to birth a large baby and this woman?

Clearly, a woman who is turning down medical care because of her substance abuse or inability to make rational decisions is different.

I'm just wondering if people are eager to support her because of the fear that it will set a precedent that will create laws over our right to turn down medical care?

I have a hard time supporting someone who clearly went to the hospital three times before labor started, who did cocaine and alcohol, who sought out no second opinions, and when she found out her baby had died, she went out to smoke a cigarette.

I'm just really confused as to why what this woman did was ok. We can be clear about this woman's actions and our agreement that the law should not dictate care for us.

As someone who wants to fight to keep medical care a choice, I have a hard time aligning myself with actions like this. I think it's irresponsible, based on the coverage, and that she clearly was not aware of what was happening.
post #93 of 357
Pamamidwife, I don't think what she did was okay. I think she sounds like a right piece of work, to be honest.

But I don't think she should be charged with murder.

I am absolutely terrified about the precedent that this could set.
post #94 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by pamamidwife


I have a hard time supporting someone who clearly went to the hospital three times before labor started, who did cocaine and alcohol, who sought out no second opinions, and when she found out her baby had died, she went out to smoke a cigarette.
I certainly hope that you never lose a baby and be judged for what you did or didn't do.

If I smoked, and I had just lost a baby, I might light up after the fact. Remember, people with addictions have them because they don't have the resources to cope with trauma in their life. They don't physicaly have the wherewithall to cope with terrible things.

So, what would you do if you found out your baby just died? Would you wail, cry or pound your fists? What if someone thought you mentally unstable because you did those things, they decided to pass judgement on you.

I don't have a hard time supporting people who are obviously sick and being railroaded by the system. She was addicted to drugs, she was not making good sound decisions, she was in a bad place in her life. It is sad reflection upon our society. It is not MURDER!

So, do we only love or support people who make decisions we agree with? I guess if my son had died because I had refused to check my blood sugar, I should be in jail, right?

Slippery moral slope.

It's so sad.
post #95 of 357
What do doctors expect when they have been telling us for years that we need surgery to give birth and then we find out we don't? If an OB told me I needed a section or the baby would die, there is no way I would believe him until I got a second opinion from a midwife.

Maybe if doctors reserved the dead baby card for cases where the baby truly would have died, instead of those where the baby merely weighed 9 lbs, more women would believe doctors.

And like others have said, we don't know if the baby would have lived. When doctors do elective c/s at 38 weeks and then the babies die of hyaline membrane disease, why aren't they charged with murder? Those deaths could have been avoided if babies were permitted to pick their own birthdates. What about mothers who have elective surgery which results in fetal lacerations? Should they be charged with assault?

I will not birth at a hospital unless I can fully accept the possibility of surgery. There have been several court-ordered sections; check "Open Season."
post #96 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by pamamidwife
...and when she found out her baby had died, she went out to smoke a cigarette.
FWIW, once I realized that Xiola had died, my first thought was, 'damn, I need a cigarette'... and I had quit smoking 4 years before. I seriously almost sent one of my doulas to get me a pack of Camel Lights...

It seems pointless to me to point out her vices, not because they were wrong or harmful, but because woment get steamrolled in hospitals like this every day wether or not they took good care of themselves during their pregnancies. Her vices are the reason that she was singled out for persecution, yes, but once the precedent is set no one will be safe. Whose standard would we judge by? Would I report Lauren for creulty to fetuses because she is vegan? I wouldn't, but some might... especially if this woman gets what the hospital thinks she has coming to her.

This is a slippery, slippery slope.
post #97 of 357
many average americans would consider unassisted childbirth irrational. In the case of IUGR or twin to twin transfusion syndrome, emergency c is no guarantee of good outcome. If they can charge that she committed murder, we should be able to charge every doc with murder that did not save our little ones, if c-secs are such guarantees for babies with serious problems.
post #98 of 357
Parents make decisions every day. I choose not to vaccinate my child. If she gets polio and dies, will I be charged with murder? Do the mothers who vaccinate and end up with autistic children get prosecuted for child abuse? Do I get to file a civil suit against my mother because of my hearing impairment because I was a forceps birth and was vaccinated?

Regardless of what this mother was doing to her body and her babies, the state has no right to force her to have surgery she doesn't want. I don't stand by drug or cigarette use in pregnancy, but I have to stand behind her right as a human being not to be forced to be cut open, and I have to stand by the right of every birthing woman in America not to be threatened with a murder conviction for not having what their OB may say is a necessary c/s.

XM~ Not one week goes by that I don't think of Xiola, not one month goes by that I don't share her story with at least one friend. She and her story will live on because you have the courage to tell it over and over again, and because you tell it so eloquently. I have cried more tears for Xiola and you and Mike than you will ever know. Thank you for teaching me so much about this delicate process of birth and death.

Hotmamcita- email me to let me know what you're doing as well so I can help.


Quote:
Everybody know the famous saying, they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew?

They're coming for the mamas first who no one will speak up for.
I agree.

Where was the state when this woman got pregnant? Where was the state BEFORE this woman got pregnant? Now they want to come in and do something after a baby has died, and a woman has been suffering what I can only guess to be years with a mentla illness. People are so quick to judge women with mental illness and drug addiction, forgetting that both are diseases. Like cancer. They are brain diseases and need to be treated as such. When we make judgement calls instead of offering help, we make the porblem worse. Look at my state. Ronnie Reagan closed all the nuthouses and by golly do we have a lot of sick mentally ill, addicted people out on our streets. Now our solution is to throw them in jail because we don't like the smell of them.

We abandoned this woman to mental illness and drug addiction and now that there are reprocussions to the tune of a dead baby, all of a sudden we want to do something about it. How much money will it cost to prosecute and jail this woman? I'd bet the farm it's a helluva lot more than it would have been to get her decent help before this happened. So yeah, I guess I do support her, bad chioces and all. Someone has to because apparently no one has before.
post #99 of 357
Quote:
Originally posted by XM
Whose standard would we judge by? Would I report Lauren for creulty to fetuses because she is vegan? I wouldn't, but some might... especially if this woman gets what the hospital thinks she has coming to her.
:
post #100 of 357
Yes maybe if women could TRUST doctors when they made statements about their unborn babies being in danger the slippery slope this situation may bring on wouldn't be so scary.

I do wonder why the hospitals didn't try to get a court order if they really thought the section was neccisary or if they thought the mom wasn't capable of making a decision because of drugs/mental instablity.

I personally had a hospital birth (and almost a c-section) when I had planned a homebirth because I was lied to as well. I was told I had pre-eclampsia due to elevated blood pressure (that had been elevated for 2+ months prior, monitored daily and was still in the ok range according to both my midwives and kaiser who I called DAILY with the results) and +3 protein in my urine. I have VIDEO of the nurse AFTER Orion's birth saying "Well she didn't have pre-eclampsia, it was just the bloody show affecting the protein levels." But no one said a thing about this PRIOR to his birth. EVEN my midwives who I called asking for their opinion (ok totally different topic to rant about there so I'll stop on how my midwives were unhelpful and damned me to my hospital birth now). I was even told, when the doctor said I needed to be admitted *now* that he "wouldn't be responsible" if I went home to gather my things. So what would have happened to me, if my midwives DID THEIR FREAKING JOB and told me I didn't have preeclampsia, or at least to get a catheder of urine to test (which would have proved I wasn't preeclamptic) and refused induction if anything would have gone wrong with a homebirth?

I don't know the full story of this woman, so I can't judge what she did. But changing the laws so we aren't the ones who make our own choices for our own bodies? NO WAY.

XM I've been thinking about you and Xiola, and I hope your doing ok.
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