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"The diseases are coming back thanks to unvaccinated kids." - Page 2

post #21 of 150
6/22/10 at 10:25pm
The one important exception to the way these numbers work out is pertussis. Due to diagnostic bias and the general ease of misdiagnosis, there is no way to know if unvaxed kids get pertussis more or less often than vaxed kids. On top of everything else, it is apparently possible to have pertussis with no symptoms at all. Herd immunity doesn't exist for this illness, with or without vaccination...because it is possible to get it more than once.

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post #22 of 150
6/23/10 at 12:26am
Dr Mendelsohn used to say that doctors will diagnose pertussis by simply noting that the child is coughing and diagnosing pertussis.

This is very dishonest because the pertussis cough has a very distinct cough and is only diagnosed precisely by a throat culture.
post #23 of 150
6/23/10 at 12:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppan View Post
I am hesitant to be the lone voice of dissent here but here goes. I think they have a point -- at least when it comes to measles. (Please show me why I'm wrong -- I'd love to be wrong.)

...

So far when an "outbreak" occurs in the US it is contained relatively quickly -- 11 cases here, 34 cases there (that was a "big" one). CDC claims that most of the cases were in unvax'd individuals (although there do seem to be at least some vax'd cases thrown in there). If our vax coverage rates dropped from over 90% to under 80% -- would we have Switzerland on our hands?

I still wouldn't vax, but I can see some truth in the argument if we look at it globally.
Thanks Poppan. By coincidence, I read this today (linked to by a blog I love, Science for Sale):

http://www.citypages.com/2009-06-03/...-in-Minnesota/
post #24 of 150
6/23/10 at 9:43am
the doctors screwed up--

kid's got a fever? give her tylenol. Diagnose her over the phone.

Good heavens!
post #25 of 150
6/27/10 at 8:45pm
The polio outbreak mentioned in that article refers to a diagnosis made with a stool sample from an Amish child who was hospitalized for something else. The child DID NOT have polio, she was carrying it in her gut, as 99% of most cases are found to be.

This was not a polio epidemic in Minnesota among the Amish. It was a one time occurance in a child who happened to be hospitalized for something else. There have been no naturally occurring cases of polio in North America since 1979 unless the vaccine was implicated...
post #26 of 150
6/27/10 at 9:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by caned & able View Post
The polio outbreak mentioned in that article refers to a diagnosis made with a stool sample from an Amish child who was hospitalized for something else.
In more detail here. (I've yet to check for MMWR follow-ups.)
post #27 of 150
6/28/10 at 1:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
In more detail here. (I've yet to check for MMWR follow-ups.)
Yes, a Vaccine Derived Polio Virus (VDPV) circulating in the community, the 'left overs' from the OPV. There was a case about a year ago in a country in South America. Also an immune compromised child, also a VDPV. There are cases all over the world. I can't remember the country, but they found someone who has been excreting VDPV for about 20 years.

VDPV is the less often spoken about side effect of the OPV. And there is no solution. Immune compromised children will continue to be at risk.

If it were not so prohibitively expensive, it would be fascinating to examine the stools of the entire population for Polio.
post #28 of 150
6/28/10 at 2:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by caned & able View Post
The polio outbreak mentioned in that article refers to a diagnosis made with a stool sample from an Amish child who was hospitalized for something else. The child DID NOT have polio, she was carrying it in her gut, as 99% of most cases are found to be.

This was not a polio epidemic in Minnesota among the Amish. It was a one time occurance in a child who happened to be hospitalized for something else. There have been no naturally occurring cases of polio in North America since 1979 unless the vaccine was implicated...
I read the article and had no idea what you were talking about. I had to go back and reread the entire thing to see what you were referencing. It was one line in the article! You have a great memory!
post #29 of 150
6/28/10 at 3:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
Yes, a Vaccine Derived Polio Virus (VDPV) circulating in the community, the 'left overs' from the OPV.
Is this what they call 'herd immunity'?
post #30 of 150
6/28/10 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by INF-ß View Post
Is this what they call 'herd immunity'?
I don't quite understand your question. Are you asking if VDPV create herd immunity to polio?
post #31 of 150
6/28/10 at 8:51am
a little girl at my Dr. office was unvaxed and hung out with outher unvaxed kids and one of them got menningitis and it spread to all of them. one kid died and one suffered real bad brain damage and is now severely disabled. idk how the rest are doing....i dont want to mess around with anything like that so i got DD vax'd...even though i am also afraid of vax...
post #32 of 150
6/28/10 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anielasmommy09 View Post
a little girl at my Dr. office was unvaxed and hung out with outher unvaxed kids and one of them got menningitis and it spread to all of them. one kid died and one suffered real bad brain damage and is now severely disabled. idk how the rest are doing....i dont want to mess around with anything like that so i got DD vax'd...even though i am also afraid of vax...
What strain of meningitis was it....was it one that is vaccinted against?
post #33 of 150
6/28/10 at 10:03am
This never made sense to me. Logically, the vaccinated kids would be the carriers.

I never get in discussions with people who vaccinate--they instantly become defensive, thinking that you think they are bad parents or some crap because they made a different choice. And honestly, most that use this kind of rhetoric are not terribly informed.
post #34 of 150
6/28/10 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
I read the article and had no idea what you were talking about. I had to go back and reread the entire thing to see what you were referencing. It was one line in the article! You have a great memory!
I do not know if you are making fun of me or not. Yes, one line in the article, but we keep hearing about a polio outbreak in Minnesota among the Amish. How many people will remember ONE LINE?

LIE.

The point should be made that the last wild case of polio in the Western Hemisphere was in 1979! The Amish child DID NOT have polio. She was hospitalized for something else, and in the exploratory phase of her hospitalization, it was discovered that she had the polio virus in her gut after studying a stool sample.

All cases of polio in North America since have been associated with the OPV.

This was NOT AN OUTBREAK of polio of any kind. If doctors studied stool samples on every person who is hospitalized, more polio may be found. I assume since she was not vaxed, the sample was ordered, - just a guess.

Did you know that the FIL of Jenna Bush acquired polio from changing his son's diaper in the early 1970s? He has been in a wheelchair ever since.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_H._Hager

Quote:
This never made sense to me. Logically, the vaccinated kids would be the carriers.
You should know that the polio virus is mutating in Nigeria. The unvaxed are being blamed for that. That also makes no sense.
post #35 of 150
6/28/10 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
I don't quite understand your question. Are you asking if VDPV create herd immunity to polio?
Yes, I am. Did the VDPV ever confer immunity to the unvaccinated infant?
post #36 of 150
6/28/10 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by INF-ß View Post
Yes, I am. Did the VDPV ever confer immunity to the unvaccinated infant?
I am sure there are people who developed immunity to a polio virus through exposure to a VDPV. Whether the immunity to a VDPV would be benficial against WPV? I don't know.

It is my understanding that a VDPV and a wild polio virus (WPV) behave similarly with regard to being able to cause paralysis. VDPV is not the same as viral shedding post vaccination. The VDPV has mutated back to a virulent form of the virus and circulates in the population. It has combined with other enteroviruses in the GIT within the population.

Exposure to WPV also confers herd immunity.
post #37 of 150
6/28/10 at 5:31pm
her Dr said it was but idk the actual strand
post #38 of 150
6/28/10 at 5:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazzybee View Post

I never get in discussions with people who vaccinate--they instantly become defensive, thinking that you think they are bad parents or some crap because they made a different choice. And honestly, most that use this kind of rhetoric are not terribly informed.
IMO it's pretty offensive and terribly unhelpful to categorize a bunch of people in that way. It would be the same as someone saying, "I don't get in discussions with people who don't vaccinate because they immediately jump on their high horse and feel like they need to explain to me why they don't vax and why vaccines are so bad, thinking that you are a bad parent because they made a different choice. And most are feeling attacked because they're in the minority, but really they are just misinformed." Nobody should say that because it's not true, it's hurtful, and it stirs up hurtful feelings that go nowhere to adress the issue.

FTR, (purely antecdotal, so take it for what it's worth) I know the position on vaxes of only three of my mom friends. I feel like it's a parent's decision, so I just don't ask my other friends unless they bring it up, YKWIM? Of the three two don't vax and one does. All three have looked at one or two opinion articles and based their decision on that. IMO, that's not really researching, but they're comfortable with it. So it's not just vaxers who don't research/ only research enough to confirm what they felt in the first place.
post #39 of 150
6/28/10 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama
I am sure there are people who developed immunity to a polio virus through exposure to a VDPV. Whether the immunity to a VDPV would be benficial against WPV? I don't know.
One thing is certain though, the unvaccinated acquired the disease from the vaccine.

Quote:
It is my understanding that a VDPV and a wild polio virus (WPV) behave similarly with regard to being able to cause paralysis. VDPV is not the same as viral shedding post vaccination. The VDPV has mutated back to a virulent form of the virus and circulates in the population. It has combined with other enteroviruses in the GIT within the population.
I do not think so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_immunity


Quote:
Exposure to WPV also confers herd immunity.
So an epidemic or an outbreak does actually benefit the theory of 'herd immunity', doesn't it?
post #40 of 150
6/28/10 at 7:45pm
[QUOTE=INF-ß;15568494]One thing is certain though, the unvaccinated acquired the disease from the vaccine.



I do not think so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_immunity




So an epidemic or an outbreak does actually benefit the theory of 'herd immunity', doesn't it?[/QUOTE]

I guess it depends on how you want the herd immunized. The spread of the virus does work to immunize the herd, but some would prefer that the herd be immunized via vaccines.
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