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9 mo on plane- lap or carseat? - Page 3

post #41 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
How exactly is the carrier different than having my arms tight around the baby? My arms are just as attached to my body as any carrier would be.
Because in an impact your arms WILL lose grasp of the baby, so if you smash into the seat in front of you the baby will fall out of the way first.

-Angela
post #42 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
This is a hot topic for me. I will try to sum up:

1. A child in a lap is four times more likely to die in bad turbulence or a mild crash than a child in a car-seat.

2. Due to gravitational forces, a parent (even a strong man) cannot physically hold the baby to her or himself should there be a sudden drop, even if the drop is otherwise surviveable.

4.http://flyingwithchildren.blogspot.com/
1. According to what data? In a thread a while back I was given a link to a site with crash reports, I looked through all of them that mentioned "infant" or "baby" and they simply did not support the argument that car seats are vastly safer on airplanes.

2. How was this determined? The strength needed to keep from unfolding your arms is considerably less than the strength needed to draw your arms in once they're extended. Whenever I see "you couldn't possibly hold your baby in a crash or even in turbulence that throws adults off their feet!!" I have to wonder was this actually tested out by created a drop and having people try to hold onto crashtest child dummies? "The physics doesn't lie" only applies if we're looking at an accurate representation of the forces involved.

4. She says that a carseat is vital for child safety, but she also recommends getting a bulkhead seat so your toddler can play on the floor.
post #43 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
1. A child in a lap is four times more likely to die in bad turbulence or a mild crash than a child in a car-seat.
2. Due to gravitational forces, a parent (even a strong man) cannot physically hold the baby to her or himself should there be a sudden drop, even if the drop is otherwise surviveable.
I have personally grabbed a "flying child" out of midair in some nasty turbulence over the pacific my dd was in her carseat (only cause i was on a military flight, free and everyone helps you carry everything on MAC flights if you have a baby but i digress) i continued to hold onto the girl as the drops continued to happen over the next 5 min and the girl was about 5 so fairly heavy and i never lost hold of her after i grabbed her (she was also in a dead sleep so she wasnt suppourting her weight)... If you have one child i wouldnt bring a seat (with the exception of international flights) and i would actually just buy a secenra to ship to your destination or rent from a car rental place.... if you have more than one that are in car seats i would bring one just to have a safe place to keep one child... basically IME your arms are a perfectly safe place for your child
post #44 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl View Post
No, because I find it much easier to have the car seats on board the aircraft with me. I don't have the luxury of flying with my husband and I keep car seats at my parents'. The little one is very active and I need her in a car seat. It's the only way I can handle three children alone.

Gate-checking isn't necessarily a guarantee. It's only slightly better than luggage checking them. Ask your dh what you would do if the car seats weren't there? I remember when only one of my four bags arrived but we had the car seat and my dd was safe on the 2 hour drive home.

If the staff gives you a hard time, take down their names and threaten to write them up. They might not understand the logic of bringing FAA approved car seats up to the door, yet not using them on board. This would be safer for your LO's. JMHO.
]

So you are saying that the best is to carry the car seats on but don't use them? Not sure I am understanding you. I can't see them ever agreeing to that as there is no way they fit in any of the carry on stowage areas. We currently use a Britax Boulevard and a Graco Nautilus for my 4 and 6 year olds. I might switch to boosters for travel situations by the next time we go anywhere.

I feel like at least with the gate-check the seats don't get lost. They might still get damaged - I really don't know how much better gate checking is vs. checking with the regular baggage in that regard. But at least I am very confident they will be there when we arrive. And that is what has "won over" DH to bringing them to the gate, so far.

I like the idea of a parent above to go ahead and check the seats but with all kinds of padding around them. That at least protects the seats, and on a direct flight maybe that is a good way to do it. With a flight with tranfers though, there is no way I'd consider that for fear of them getting lost.
post #45 of 61
I was just on a flight this past weekend where we hit major turbulence without any warning. It was bad enough that a flight attendant was injured and had to be taken out by paramedics when we arrived. The very first thing that happened was a major drop. I was so happy my 4-month-old was strapped into his bucket seat. We were both asleep and there's no way I would have held onto him through that, even if I'd been just groggy instead of napping. He slept through the whole thing.

We had bought a seat for every plane trip, which were frequent, with his older brother and not encountered any real issues. But this one trip has made me feel that the extra expense has been worth it.
post #46 of 61
I have flown with lap babies and this most recent trip I brought a seat for my under 2 year old ds. With my dd I was wishing for a seat because it was hard for her to fall asleep and us with a almost 2 year old in our laps.

This recent trip I though buying a seat would be easier and my ds would sit and fall asleep in it. I was wrong. He screamed bloody murder whenever he was in the seat even though he doesn't in the car. He got fussy and cried when out of the seat too but the seat made it worse. People complained about his screaming and offered him food and water he refused and complained about the kicking.

I kept him in his seat during take off and landing only. One landing he was asleep in my lap and I didn't even bother putting him in the seat to wake him and have him scream. On one leg I was walking him around and he fell asleep and I put him in the seat and his head bobbing because he was facing foward woke him up. His seat was a radian and the people in front of me reclined their seats so either way they would be annoyed at either the kicking or the fact they couldn't recline their seat.

I don't think safety wise having a lap baby is a big deal. There are very little reports of serious injury or death from plane rides. A lot of the kids I see with purchased seats are not in them the whole flight anyway.
post #47 of 61
No, babies don't have to be in the seat the whole time. Yes you can have sudden turbulence but it's more common that it's bumpy first. Also, we used to get information from the aircraft in front of us so we did get some warning (this might explain why the seat belt sign sometimes goes on and it's smooth).

Some of you are confusing the forces with take-off and landing with those of turbulence. Take-off and landing are the most dangerous portions of the flight. You have to stay in your seat and your child is safer in a car seat. If the plane goes off the runway, the forces are too great to hold your child in your arms. The chances of that happening are slim.

Turbulence, by contrast, is more common, usually less dangerous and has a different "force" or direction. Basically, it can be up and down or side to side, whatever. It can be dramatic but usually not. If you're up and turbulence hits, evaluate whether it's a good idea to go back to your seat. It might be better to stay put and hang on to something. One hand can go on a handle, the other on the child. You can also sit on the floor if you feel that's safer in really rough air.

The example above where the baby was sleeping in the car seat is a good example. My kids were not big on strollers and wouldn't sit much in the car seat. I kept them close, walked the aisle with them and made sure I could grab them if it got rough. I also could sleep myself, knowing that my baby was strapped in safely. Sometimes the baby would fall asleep in my arms and then I could transfer them into the seat...

Information on death and injuries relating to babies and car seats are not too reliable because gratefully, it's rare. The FAA uses car data to make decisions. For me, transporting the car seat is almost, or even more, the issue than whether having the car seat in the cabin helps in the air. It is safer in the air but the real risk is having the car seat lost and/or broken en route. Gate-checked items can be very roughly treated!
post #48 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by astra View Post
I have read (could be outdated though) that the safest place (besides the carseat) for a baby during a rough landing/ crash is on the floor
Besides making no sense, I read on this forum about a year ago about a baby dying in 1990 from the parent being told to do just that.

http://books.google.com/books?id=av7...page&q&f=false
post #49 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl View Post
No, babies don't have to be in the seat the whole time. Yes you can have sudden turbulence but it's more common that it's bumpy first. Also, we used to get information from the aircraft in front of us so we did get some warning (this might explain why the seat belt sign sometimes goes on and it's smooth).

Some of you are confusing the forces with take-off and landing with those of turbulence. Take-off and landing are the most dangerous portions of the flight. You have to stay in your seat and your child is safer in a car seat. If the plane goes off the runway, the forces are too great to hold your child in your arms. The chances of that happening are slim.

Turbulence, by contrast, is more common, usually less dangerous and has a different "force" or direction.
I'm sorry. In the thread on this topic last year, the argument in favor of a car seat on a plane was because of turbulence. That's why I thought you were talking about turbulence too. That and the fact you mentioned "drops".

Still curious how the forces are calculated though. I mean, planes have a lot of mass and therefore there's a lot of force involved when they accelerate, but in an impact the plane would also be absorbing a lot of that force. You'd have to be taped to the outside of the plane to actually experience all of the force of a crash, it seems to me. I know I suck at physics though, so I'd really like a reference to the information on forces.
post #50 of 61
SC, the force is not absorbed by the plane. You are going down WITH that plane, and you have the same amount of inertia as you always do. Just like jumping right before you hit is not going to help one itty, bitty bit, neither is being "stuck" to the plane going to make it worse. The plane is not going to cushion your fall in any meaningful way at the speeds that occur during an air crash.

However, turbulence is still an issue and the RF / FF might not be an issue but a five-point-harness is still going to help keep that kid from hitting the ceiling.
post #51 of 61
Yes, the baby on floor thing is outdated and not done anymore.

Fwiw, there was a lap infant held in arms on the plane that landed in the hudson (which was not a soft landing at all) and he was uninjured.
post #52 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
SC, the force is not absorbed by the plane.
Well, something happens so that the force imparted to each passenger is not the same as the force of tons of metal accelerating swiftly to a stop or there'd never be survivors of any crash, regardless of restraints.
post #53 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
However, turbulence is still an issue and the RF / FF might not be an issue but a five-point-harness is still going to help keep that kid from hitting the ceiling.
Or other people. In a crash, a lap baby becomes a projectile just as a piece of luggage would.
post #54 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by DahliaRW View Post
Fwiw, there was a lap infant held in arms on the plane that landed in the hudson (which was not a soft landing at all) and he was uninjured.
Awesome!

Instead of exaggerating that no one could ever hold onto a baby in a crash (or in turbulence? I still can't believe people were making that argument in the discussion last year about this) let's figure out how people can hold onto their babies.
post #55 of 61
We have flown every couple of months for the past 6 years with my kids (now 6 and 3). I have always purchased a seat for them, and brought their car seats. (Well, when I was traveling alone with an infant and 3 yr old, we used the CARES harness and gate checked his seat) When my husband is with is, we are in two separate rows, each with one child in their car seat. As infants, I would have to take them out during the flight to nurse or comfort, but always in the seat for take off and landing, and if there was warning about turbulence. Our rule is that once they are walking, they are in the carseat from the time the plane pushes back, to the time we pull up to the destination gate. It is just like our car - when we're in motion, you don't get out of your seat. Does require a lot of work for mom and dad to entertain, but really, my kids were very happy. Once they had done that once or twice, they got it. They are familiar and comfy in their carseats. I always feel bad for the parents stick walking the aisles with a toddler, trying to avoid beverage carts and the like.
post #56 of 61
I would say not in your lap for that far just because of comfort, not so sure about the carseat idea but I always used one. It is expensive (they charge full fare usually now), but having somewhere to put your baby is handy, especially on a long flight. Also, you get more carry-on allowance if you have a seat for them.
post #57 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by DahliaRW View Post
Yes, the baby on floor thing is outdated and not done anymore.

Fwiw, there was a lap infant held in arms on the plane that landed in the hudson (which was not a soft landing at all) and he was uninjured.
Actually, I read the opposite. The baby was held to the floor and the passenger next to the mother offered to hold him since he was bigger/stronger/whatever. A quick internet search couldn't confirm this but a baby would be MUCH safer held to the floor than in the lap or over the shoulder. It's easier to hold something against something else and it also means the parents' body wont crush the baby.

I can ask some of my friends who are still flying but I think holding babies to the floor in prepared emergency landings is still standard. At least I hope so!

The plane does NOT "absorb" any impact. I did have an aborted take-off once. Wow, what force!!! The passengers are totally unaware. Take-off feels so smooth but when we had to stop, yeee gads! I think that convinced me to use those car seats when I finally did have children and flew with them
post #58 of 61
It's amazing and fascinating that this is still discussed. Keeping a child in a lap or with lap belt is and has always been extremely safe. There are zero children killed each year due to turbulence on planes globally, almsot all of these kids are in lap or with lap belts.

For some parents the sky is always falling, everything is dangerous. Sadly, what most feel being the most dangerous is actually the opposite. Data and stats for fatalities on planes due to turbulence are easily available online for everyone. The data does of course show that car seat seat or not doesn't really matter, flying with a child is still safer than sitting down at the dinner table at home.

Requiring every child to sit in a car seat would not save any lives, instead it would likely increase fatalities with up to 60% since more parents would use cars instead of aircraft.
post #59 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl View Post
Actually, I read the opposite. The baby was held to the floor and the passenger next to the mother offered to hold him since he was bigger/stronger/whatever. A quick internet search couldn't confirm this but a baby would be MUCH safer held to the floor than in the lap or over the shoulder. It's easier to hold something against something else and it also means the parents' body wont crush the baby.

I can ask some of my friends who are still flying but I think holding babies to the floor in prepared emergency landings is still standard. At least I hope so!

The plane does NOT "absorb" any impact. I did have an aborted take-off once. Wow, what force!!! The passengers are totally unaware. Take-off feels so smooth but when we had to stop, yeee gads! I think that convinced me to use those car seats when I finally did have children and flew with them
A former flight attendent on another board said the baby on the floor thing is NOT recommended anymore.

I don't know where the article is I read (it was quite a while back) but in the Hudson landing it was a mom with a baby and another young child (the other child being in their own seat). She didn't know how to care for both of them and another man offered to take the baby. He then held the baby for the landing and they were both perfectly fine.
post #60 of 61
Yeah if you do a search for the infant and then search for the name of the woman on the Hudson flight, it says she handed her infant to the man sitting beside her and he held on to the baby. He did NOT put the baby on the floor.

Also, I have seen several flight attendants say that putting the baby on the floor is not the current safety recommendation. The picture at the bottom of this link is what I have been instructed to do to brace myself and an infant http://www.deliciousbaby.com/journal...me-turbulence/

Flying is extremely safe, lap baby or not.
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