Overwhelmed by the vaccine stuff. - Page 2

[xmasbaby7]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

You can always stop vaccinating.

We vaccinate and we are glad we do.

I think that ultimately, you can read and read but it comes down to this: do you think the CDC, AAP, World Health Organization, etc. etc. are lying, but that organizations that promote alternative health are telling the truth? Or perhaps vice-versa?

Because unless you subscribe to, and have the training to read, scientific journals, it will be hard to separate facts from lies and myths. There is a lot of contradictory information out there, so once you choose whom to believe, then you can go with it.

I don't think Sears' schedule makes sense. He has you giving infant vaccines to toddlers who are half past the danger. He seems to think that once a child is bigger, these absolutely microscopic amounts are going to be better integrated, even though most kids eat more lead on a piece of dirt at the park than can be found in a vaccine.

I think it makes sense to not vaccinate, if you think the CDC, the AAP, and the WHO are just totally lying and these are either not effective, or dangerous, or both.

It makes sense to vaccinate for all the main diseases if you think vaccines are generally safe and helpful. But then you'd have to explicitely NOT believe the anti-vaccine side.

So, I'd start by deciding whom you trust for your information.

I know this will sound harsh, and I am sorry, but I consider this extremely unsophisticated thinking that can get a vaxer or a nonvaxer into trouble.

These are not black and white issues. There is a tremendous amount of grey in what public health officials have to recommend when weighing risks and benefits, and two extremely intelligent people could conclude opposite results while viewing the same data when determining what is best for their families verses making public health policy.

I know there are some non-vaxers here who do subscribe to conspiracy theories and paint all physicians as evil, but most of us don't, and you would be doing yourself a disservice by not trying to understand the complexity of this topic a little more.

I am convinced that SOME vaccines are very effective and that some individuals seem unharmed by vaccination and that SOME vaccine preventable illnesses are really scary, yet I still choose not to vaccinate. I am not alone on this board with that view, and many others who share these views yet make decisions to vaccinate on a selective and delayed schedule.

If you want to simplify the argument, though, the question isn't who is or is not lying, the question is who has the most to lose if you don't agree with them. This works on both sides of the debate.

Forgive the soapbox but we are all just trying to do the best for our families here and we should attempt to grasp this and any other medical or wellness choice from a more rational stance. Fear-driven parenting choices make the kids and the parents suffer ultimately.

[Deborah]

Heather,
Thanks for your commentary.

As for the two questions to answer about vaxes... I guess you just see it much more simplistically than I do. I can think of tons of other questions and issues that need to be taken into consideration. That's why most of us seem to agree that it is a complicated issue with a lot of information to go through.

It seems unrealistic, to me, to not acknowledge that believing a study, opinion, etc takes a certain amount of trust. Like I brought out in my last post, there is always someone who funds the study. There's always researchers who may have other interests worth mentioning. There's always someone who will stand to gain from the results of the research, whatever they are. So even if one can read the actual research itself, find no flaws with the scientific method, and confirm that the listed results are accurate, there are other things to consider. It's scary to realize that you have to put a certain amount of trust in people. But, IMO, it's even scarier if you're denying that fact.

The two questions are approaching the problem from the point of view of the individual parent trying to decide what to do about their individual child, which is where this thread started.

True, if someone is trying to decide about vaccne policy on a national or international level, there is a lot more to consider. But this is a board for parents and none of us have that sort of authority or responsibility.

As far as trying to decide on the value of a particular study, I find that simply reading it through and looking at the overall argument is a good place to start. Conflicts of interest are way down on my list of things to consider.

To give a simple example, which I already mentioned: It is pretty easy to find the clinical studies used to justify the approval of vaccines. They are cited and described on the package inserts. I looked at 40 in a row once, just to see what they looked like.

Healthy children, healthy babies, healthy infants were included in one clinical study after another.

Then I was at the doctor's office with my daughter. While we waited for the baby to be seen we read the poster on the door which was promoting vaccination. It said that a mild fever was no reason to skip a set of vaccines. But in a clinical study, no baby with a mild fever would be vaccinated. Excuse me?

We aren't trying to do science here. We are trying to decipher it far enough to decide, moment by moment, whether it makes sense to get none, some or all vaccines. To get them on time, late or never. To get them in the recommended combinations, spread out or not at all.

These are decisions which should be made by individual parents, ideally in consultation with an informed physician who will put the interest of the individual baby ahead of any national or international vaccine policies.

Just my opinions, of course.

[ma2two]

I haven't seen anyone mention yet that vaccines are not compared against placebos in safety studies.

Just read the package inserts. The control groups receive either a thimerosal containing injection, or a shot of aluminum, or a different vaccine. http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac.../ucm093833.htm How in the world is that considered science?

[Wildwomyn]

Originally Posted by xmasbaby7

I know there are some non-vaxers here who do subscribe to conspiracy theories and paint all physicians as evil, but most of us don't, and you would be doing yourself a disservice by not trying to understand the complexity of this topic a little more.

When I was pregnant I was reading these forums (among other things), trying to understand the topic and feeling pretty overwhelmed. One day someone made a thread about how her family ,or perhaps just her children, received some sort of public health care and she had gotten both a phone call and a flyer in the mail about how she could get her kids vaccinated at no charge.

She was panicked. She seemed to think that stormtroopers were going to be pounding down her door to vaccinate her children at gun point any minute. I wondered why it hadn't occurred to her that it was possible that they were just trying to let her know this service was available, given that so many do go without preventive health care they would like to have, because of prohibitive costs. But we all have bad days where we leap to panic, and the thread was already several pages long, so I assumed someone, probably numerous people, had brought this up at least as a possibility. Until I read the thread and it was several pages of cheering on her resistance in the face of this incredible abuse of power and clear threat to the very lives of her children.

I ultimately decided to vaccinate my child. And I'm happy with that decision.

[Deborah]

wildwomyn, do you have a link to the thread in question? I'd like to read it.

[Wildwomyn]

No, I read it over a year ago when I was pregnant. And I'm fairly sure my linking would be against the rules in some way. It was not the only thread that helped me along in deciding to vaccinate after all.

I was more than open to the idea that vaccines do not live up to the life saving hype, that bad reactions are more common than is admitted, and I'm completely away that medicine has more than once said 'Gee, sorry, we were completely wrong, but we're SURE that we're not wrong this time!' But that just wasn't what it seemed to be about, any of it.

[Deborah]

No, it is okay to link to prior threads to share information. But I understand the difficulty of tracking down a thread from a year ago.

[poppan]

Originally Posted by Wildwomyn

I ultimately decided to vaccinate my child. And I'm happy with that decision.

I very much respect your decision. But I hope you made it based on the facts, and not on a perception that the anti-vax movement is hysterical and therefore not believable. I fully admit I had to stay away from this entire forum during the swine flu scare because of the amount of panicked posts about mandatory vaccination being just around the corner. But. I don't think the conspiracy theories of a few -- or even a lot -- should have any effect on the facts.

[treeoflife3]

My daughter is 15 months old now and I'm still thoroughly confused. I regret not trying harder to make sense of all the jumbles of information and misinformation out there on vaccinations because although my instincts tell me NOT to vaccinate (and they did before I even knew there was a huge controversy... I couldn't tell you why I felt unease on the matter at such a young age) My husband was ADAMANT about DD getting vaccinations because of his being in the military and there being issues with being sent overseas or using the military daycares or what have you. I felt too confused to do more than just insist we do a delayed schedule instead and leave out flu and chicken pox.

I chose to read the dr sears book after trying a ton of other things. It was the simplest for me to read and understand. It didn't make that nagging instinct go away but I felt a bit more peace over doing a delay schedule as a compromise with my husband. He read the Dr Sears book as well (His ONLY research) and agreed to the delay schedule + flu/cp exclusion but I wish I knew more at the time about waivers and laws as well as what I know now about vaccines.

I still feel like I don't know enough and I still have a hell of a time wading through information. I can't focus on anything too heavy. I need the super dumbed down version or I get confused (I was also just diagnosed with ADD last week so now I understand why... ) but I have guilt for not trying harder then to see how accurate my instinct was because it just gets stronger now. My husband isn't willing to stop vaccination at this time but I hope by the time we have another, I'll have more on my side to at least get him to agree to exclude a few more vaccines. I'd like to just not vax, but even cutting out a few more would make me feel a tad better.

I recommend you just go one piece of information at a time. Whether that is one book/website or one illness or one vaccine (don't forget to research the multiple types as there are different companies) or whatever method you choose to research. I also recommend you pull information from multiple sources. I think everything has something valid to say even if you don't ultimately agree with it... or even if you get from it is the opposite of what they intended (such as a PP and the CDC)

Like others have said, its okay to just NOT vax right now. It is also okay to stop later. You might have some guilt the way I do, but ultimately, I think you'll find a balance you can live with even if you aren't completely happy with it. I can live with my first child getting vaccines on a delay with two exclusions... I'm not thrilled about it and I wish things had gone differently from jump, but I'm confident that it isn't the worst thing to feel guilt over.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Wildwomyn

When I was pregnant I was reading these forums (among other things), trying to understand the topic and feeling pretty overwhelmed. One day someone made a thread about how her family ,or perhaps just her children, received some sort of public health care and she had gotten both a phone call and a flyer in the mail about how she could get her kids vaccinated at no charge.

She was panicked. She seemed to think that stormtroopers were going to be pounding down her door to vaccinate her children at gun point any minute. I wondered why it hadn't occurred to her that it was possible that they were just trying to let her know this service was available, given that so many do go without preventive health care they would like to have, because of prohibitive costs. But we all have bad days where we leap to panic, and the thread was already several pages long, so I assumed someone, probably numerous people, had brought this up at least as a possibility. Until I read the thread and it was several pages of cheering on her resistance in the face of this incredible abuse of power and clear threat to the very lives of her children.

I ultimately decided to vaccinate my child. And I'm happy with that decision.

That's your choice to make, of course, but if that thread had anything to do with your decision to vaccinate, I'd have a difficult time respecting that.

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by Deborah

The two questions are approaching the problem from the point of view of the individual parent trying to decide what to do about their individual child, which is where this thread started.

True, if someone is trying to decide about vaccne policy on a national or international level, there is a lot more to consider. But this is a board for parents and none of us have that sort of authority or responsibility.

As far as trying to decide on the value of a particular study, I find that simply reading it through and looking at the overall argument is a good place to start. Conflicts of interest are way down on my list of things to consider.

But there are many other factors that are important in the decision-making of parents. Not just public health officials. For example, I read study X. The people who carried out study X give a summary of it, that it finds that product Y is safe and effective. I read the study. The results indicate that product Y is safe and effective. But someone tells me that further review showed huge errors in how the study was carried out. And no one can duplicate the results of study X. And the people behind study X were being paid by the manufacturers of product Y. Then, of course, that merits more research from the parent. Because it significantly impacts the safety of what they're giving their child.

Originally Posted by Deborah

We aren't trying to do science here. We are trying to decipher it far enough to decide, moment by moment, whether it makes sense to get none, some or all vaccines. To get them on time, late or never. To get them in the recommended combinations, spread out or not at all.

But yes, we are doing science here. I'm sure that you've been researching this issue for long enough to know that you can read two individual's overview on the same study and get totally different stories. So the only way for one to know what's true is to look at the studies themselves, which are often not easy for laymen to understand. That's why it's called medical jargon, because sometimes it sounds like they're speaking a totally different language. Parents who are doing their very best to research the right decision to make for their children should not be looked down on for feeling overwhelmed about all this, IMO. It's a lot to take in and the stakes are (potentially) high.

Originally Posted by Deborah

These are decisions which should be made by individual parents, ideally in consultation with an informed physician who will put the interest of the individual baby ahead of any national or international vaccine policies.

Just my opinions, of course.

Agreed.

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by xmasbaby7

These are not black and white issues. There is a tremendous amount of grey in what public health officials have to recommend when weighing risks and benefits, and two extremely intelligent people could conclude opposite results while viewing the same data when determining what is best for their families verses making public health policy.

I know there are some non-vaxers here who do subscribe to conspiracy theories and paint all physicians as evil, but most of us don't, and you would be doing yourself a disservice by not trying to understand the complexity of this topic a little more.

If you want to simplify the argument, though, the question isn't who is or is not lying, the question is who has the most to lose if you don't agree with them. This works on both sides of the debate.

Forgive the soapbox but we are all just trying to do the best for our families here and we should attempt to grasp this and any other medical or wellness choice from a more rational stance. Fear-driven parenting choices make the kids and the parents suffer ultimately.

Well said.

[lioralourie]

You can see the CDC's pink book info for yourself here. Download the entire thing, I did. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...t.htm#download

Now contrast those with the VIS statements which are worded in such a way to lead one to ONE conclusion: "dangerous pathogen, must vaccinate against it."

And a must read is the PACKAGE INSERT for each and every vaccine proposed to you. If the doc wants to give a polio vaccine, ask which brand, and find the Package insert online. Then ask yourself if you want those ingredients and THAT set of risks versus the OTHER set of risks outlined in the CDC's pink book.

I've chosen the Pink book risks, not the package insert risks, for each and every disease out there for myself and my children.

liora in beijing

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67

But there are many other factors that are important in the decision-making of parents. Not just public health officials. For example, I read study X. The people who carried out study X give a summary of it, that it finds that product Y is safe and effective. I read the study. The results indicate that product Y is safe and effective. But someone tells me that further review showed huge errors in how the study was carried out. And no one can duplicate the results of study X. And the people behind study X were being paid by the manufacturers of product Y. Then, of course, that merits more research from the parent. Because it significantly impacts the safety of what they're giving their child.

But what the PP was saying (I think, correct me if I'm wrong!) is that many times it's not even necessary to look that far into it. I don't know of many vax studies that prove "product Y" is safe or effective. If someone came up with a study showing that, I would definitely look into the methodology, sponsorship, conflicts of interest, etc. but more often the study says "product Y does not prevent transmission" etc. so there is nothing to look further into. I guess what I'm saying is if the manufacturers and sponsors etc. WHO ARE TRYING TO PROMOTE THE VAX can't even come up with a badly-formed study 'proving' it's safety then there's no reason to look further into it. But then again, I guess that depends on your original point of view... If you start from the standpoint of "I'm not vaxing unless it's proven safe & effective" you're not going to find many studies convincing you to vax so there's less need to look deeply into the studies since the results wouldn't change your position. If you start of saying "I'm vaxing unless it's proven dangerous or ineffective" THEN you'd find some studies convincing you to not vax & therefore would then need to look further into those studies to see if there really is just cause to change your point of view.

[Deborah]

quite often the question on this forum is whether it is a good idea to vaccinate a child with a particular health condition

the doctor is usually saying yes

but if the parent looks at the studies, there is a very good chance that no child with such a health condition was ever included in a study

so there is no safety data for a very large proportion of the population of babies and infants, other than VAERS

and people who support vaccination keep pointing out that VAERS isn't complete or accurate and cannot be used to determine the risks of a particular vaccine

all of which leaves a big group of parents with NO scientific data on the safety of vaccinating their babies.

This is a very large hole in the "vaccines are carefully tested for safety" argument.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67

But there are many other factors that are important in the decision-making of parents. Not just public health officials. For example, I read study X. The people who carried out study X give a summary of it, that it finds that product Y is safe and effective. I read the study. The results indicate that product Y is safe and effective. But someone tells me that further review showed huge errors in how the study was carried out. And no one can duplicate the results of study X. And the people behind study X were being paid by the manufacturers of product Y. Then, of course, that merits more research from the parent. Because it significantly impacts the safety of what they're giving their child.



But yes, we are doing science here. I'm sure that you've been researching this issue for long enough to know that you can read two individual's overview on the same study and get totally different stories. So the only way for one to know what's true is to look at the studies themselves, which are often not easy for laymen to understand. That's why it's called medical jargon, because sometimes it sounds like they're speaking a totally different language. Parents who are doing their very best to research the right decision to make for their children should not be looked down on for feeling overwhelmed about all this, IMO. It's a lot to take in and the stakes are (potentially) high.

Agreed.

I agree, they can be hard to understand. Get a medical dictionary and look up things you don't understand. I totally disagree with the PP who said, we should leave sorting out these complicated studies to the experts since unless one has training in statistical analysis, one cannot possible understand. If a person has a brain in their head, a desire to learn, a medical dictionary and a passion and love for their child that drives them to want to learn the facts so they can make educated, sound choices for them than it makes no difference if a person is a "layperson" or not. Is it more challenging, yes, but that's what makes it all the more rewarding when the lightbulb comes on and you can finally think for yourself and stop relying on "the experts" advice to vaccinate vaccinate vaccinate because it's safe safe safe!

As for your comment: Parents who are doing their very best to research the right decision to make for their children should not be looked down on for feeling overwhelmed about all this, IMO. It's a lot to take in and the stakes are (potentially) high.

I totally agree, but I don't thing that is what Deborah stated or even alluded to at all.