Glutamate/GABA

[Theloose]

What are all of our glutamate and GABA resources?

I don't have time to explain atm, but I'm wondering if glutamate GABA imbalances are always involved, or almost always involved in these issues. With different causes and different symptoms, of course. But basically, does everyone with issues (autism, allergies, metals, etc) have a glutamate issue going on?

Anyway, can we post everything we know about glutamate and GABA? Especially symptoms, prevalence, causes and nutrients? But everything's a clue, so all links are great!

[lil_miss_understood]

[tanyalynn]

Yay for a gaba - glutamate thread! I've read some of the stuff that's in Yasko's forum, looking for outside links. I'm still at the beginning of understanding though, that is clear.

[changingseasons]

[mamafish9]

I think it's pretty universal amongst kids with autism. Yasko has a nice list of supps to try, and in most cases, they help parents find that "calm" place (HUGE if you have a crazy kid) from which to contemplate the rest of her protocol.

There are three ways glutamate/gaba can be a factor:

1) Out of balance - too much glutamate in proportion to GABA. Even if both are in normal ranges, Yasko likes to see gaba higher than glutamate.

2) Too much or too little (usually high glutamates or low gaba).

3) Oversensitivity. Even if gaba & glutamate levels in the blood/urine are good, the receptors can be an issue. For example, studies show at least some kids with autism a higher than normal amount of glutamate receptors (so they are overresponsive even with normal glutamate levels). GABA receptors can also not do a good job of picking up GABA - I'm in the process of researching this now for DS.

Yasko recommended supps:

GABA (direct supplementation - not "supposed" to cross the blood-brain barrier. HA!)

Valerian root - low levels of natural GABA, also helps GABA receptors

Grapeseed extract - helps with glutamate receptors, also seems to tackle glutamate directly

Pycnogenol - helps with glutamate receptors, some people react badly to it (it's the most likely of this list to cause issues, works great for DS)

keep calcium low (glutamate opens the gate, calcium runs though - Yasko likes high normal mag and low normal calcium, and doesn't recommend supping calcium at all, even GFCF, just using nettles & chamomile if necessary. Calcium supps make DS crazy, dairy doesn't, fwiw).

address very low lithium with 1/4 tab a day or less of lithium orotate

Those are the core ones most people use.

[changingseasons]

I was recently reading on the vitamin K group- Catherine talks about how an abnormally high BUN/creatinine ratio indicates a problem with clearing nitrogen (ammonia). (Normal ratio is 10:1-20:1... DD's is ~47:1. ) Then I'm reading on Wikipedia that glutamate plays an important role in the body's disposal of excess or waste nitrogen. So... DD is maybe making an excessive amount of glutamate in her body to clear all the meat that she's eating, and that's why she's sensitive to external sources of glutamates (like the HLC Mindlinx)?? Catherine also mentions that a high phosphate level (which DD has) probably means that phosphate is being moved to the kidneys at an accelerated rate to be used for acid excretion.

I know this is only partially on topic... But I should assume that we need to cut back on the meat for DD, no? Lower the acid level in her body a bit? Maybe that would help with the glutamate issue?

I'm trying a bit of GABA supplementation for DD again. The DAN! doc recommended it along with the melatonin and 5HTP, but starting them all at once I couldn't really tell what (if anything) was making a difference. We recently stopped the melatonin because although it was helping her fall asleep really quickly, she wasn't sleeping very restfully (I think you mentioned the same thing for your DS, right Deb?) So now I'll try a bit of GABA when things seem crazy- like yesterday after giving the Mindlinx. (Last time I'll try that!!)

[mom61508]

[Theloose]

If you're absorbing more amino acids than you can use, then they get broken down, which creates ammonia as a byproduct. That ammonia can then get converted to glutamine/glutamate, especially in the brain, because that's less toxic than the ammonia.

Somehow, this relates to urine pH. I think it has to do with ammonium ions making things more acid?

(little blips of computer time these days)

[FireWithin]

I have two things to add to this discussion:

A while back when many of us were exploring infusions, I tried to use oatstraw. Everything seemed to be going ok, but then DS1 and I started getting crippling headaches - crawl across the floor migraines.

I was doing a search in the middle of it and came across a spot that said oatstraw had significant amounts of glutamates. I think at the levels were were consuming them, and the fact that we are sensitive to them, makes me think that it was just too much. We also were not taking large amounts of B12 at that time.

So FYI - oatstraw has lots of glutamates!!!

Just now I was trying to find a source for the above information, but couldn't find it. But, I found something else that might help explain why many of us are sensitive to glutamates. It is related to b12.

"Methylcobalamin has also been shown to protect neurons against the toxic effect of excess glutamate, a neurotransmitter."
http://77ingredients.com/ingredients...s/vitamin-b12/

So what if a person is not able to absorb b12 well, then they are more reactive to glutamates.

Right now the focus has been on hydroxoB12, whereas before it was on methyl. I am wondering if a mix would be good for people who can handle the extra methyl donors.

[changingseasons]

Originally Posted by Mammo2Sammo

A while back when many of us were exploring infusions, I tried to use oatstraw. Everything seemed to be going ok, but then DS1 and I started getting crippling headaches - crawl across the floor migraines.

You are kidding! I wonder if that has anything to do with my weird 4-day headache. I've been getting more regular with my infusions, and I just started adding oatstraw. Huh.

eta: I haven't had any of the latest infusion for at least 2 days, and my headache is just starting to fade today. It would last that long in your system would it?

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

I was recently reading on the vitamin K group- Catherine talks about how an abnormally high BUN/creatinine ratio indicates a problem with clearing nitrogen (ammonia). (Normal ratio is 10:1-20:1... DD's is ~47:1. ) Then I'm reading on Wikipedia that glutamate plays an important role in the body's disposal of excess or waste nitrogen. So... DD is maybe making an excessive amount of glutamate in her body to clear all the meat that she's eating, and that's why she's sensitive to external sources of glutamates (like the HLC Mindlinx)?? Catherine also mentions that a high phosphate level (which DD has) probably means that phosphate is being moved to the kidneys at an accelerated rate to be used for acid excretion.

I know this is only partially on topic... But I should assume that we need to cut back on the meat for DD, no? Lower the acid level in her body a bit? Maybe that would help with the glutamate issue?

I'm trying a bit of GABA supplementation for DD again. The DAN! doc recommended it along with the melatonin and 5HTP, but starting them all at once I couldn't really tell what (if anything) was making a difference. We recently stopped the melatonin because although it was helping her fall asleep really quickly, she wasn't sleeping very restfully (I think you mentioned the same thing for your DS, right Deb?) So now I'll try a bit of GABA when things seem crazy- like yesterday after giving the Mindlinx. (Last time I'll try that!!)

I don't know which issue is driving the bus (ammonia or glutamates), but they definitely work together. Lower protein intake would help (I don't know how you pull that off!). Charcoal flushes to absorb the excess ammonia would maybe help too (Yasko says weekly for people who have big ammonia issues).

Yes, melatonin helped DS fall asleep, but seemed to make it harder for him to stay asleep. Knowing it is a methyl donor, and looking at his genetics, that makes lots of sense.

And yeah. Why I didn't try the mindlinx .

Originally Posted by Mammo2Sammo

I have two things to add to this discussion:

A while back when many of us were exploring infusions, I tried to use oatstraw. Everything seemed to be going ok, but then DS1 and I started getting crippling headaches - crawl across the floor migraines.

I was doing a search in the middle of it and came across a spot that said oatstraw had significant amounts of glutamates. I think at the levels were were consuming them, and the fact that we are sensitive to them, makes me think that it was just too much. We also were not taking large amounts of B12 at that time.

So FYI - oatstraw has lots of glutamates!!!

Just now I was trying to find a source for the above information, but couldn't find it. But, I found something else that might help explain why many of us are sensitive to glutamates. It is related to b12.

"Methylcobalamin has also been shown to protect neurons against the toxic effect of excess glutamate, a neurotransmitter."
http://77ingredients.com/ingredients...s/vitamin-b12/

So what if a person is not able to absorb b12 well, then they are more reactive to glutamates.

Right now the focus has been on hydroxoB12, whereas before it was on methyl. I am wondering if a mix would be good for people who can handle the extra methyl donors.

For kids on the Yasko protocol, even if they can tolerate methyl donors, she mostly focuses on hydroxy B12, and then uses SAMe and DMG as the methyl donors. But no reason you can't use some methyl B12 if you tolerate it. Kids tend to tolerate methyl groups better than adults, as well. B12 helps the glutamate receptors, so yeah, being B12 deficient is not good. Again, hydroxy B12 seems to work for most, your body can tack on a methyl group as needed.

And we have found anything that concentrates glutamate really high is an issue for DS. Stock, fermented CLO, too much tomato sauce. But the Yasko supps have really, really helped in this regard. Don't know which one exactly, we added a pile all at once.

Originally Posted by changingseasons

You are kidding! I wonder if that has anything to do with my weird 4-day headache. I've been getting more regular with my infusions, and I just started adding oatstraw. Huh.

eta: I haven't had any of the latest infusion for at least 2 days, and my headache is just starting to fade today. It would last that long in your system would it?

Yup, that's about exactly the timing. Glutamate stuff wears off for DS in about 48 hours. And DH gets brutal migraines from glutamates, fwiw.

[FireWithin]

Cs - yes it took that long. So glad you are able to make that connection.

[changingseasons]

That's really crazy if it was actually the oatstraw. I'm not sure I've ever had a headache this bad, for this amount of time. But the headache didn't start until I had been drinking the oatstraw infusion for probably 3-4 days (and then didn't drink any for 2 days), so that's really strange that it would be so delayed and then stick around for so long.

Yeah Deb- I don't really know how I would pull off less meat in DD's diet either... not like I have a lot of options to switch it out for.

So what exactly is a charcoal flush? Similar to a C flush??

Totally OT again (sorry), but as I was reading more about the BUN/creatinine ratio, I found this:

A very high BUN-to-creatinine ratio may be caused by bleeding in the digestive track

and

In children, a BUN:Cr ratio of 30 or greater has a sensitivity of 68.8% and a specificity of 98% for upper gastrointestinal bleeding.

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

That's really crazy if it was actually the oatstraw. I'm not sure I've ever had a headache this bad, for this amount of time. But the headache didn't start until I had been drinking the oatstraw infusion for probably 3-4 days (and then didn't drink any for 2 days), so that's really strange that it would be so delayed and then stick around for so long.

Yeah Deb- I don't really know how I would pull off less meat in DD's diet either... not like I have a lot of options to switch it out for.

So what exactly is a charcoal flush? Similar to a C flush??

Totally OT again (sorry), but as I was reading more about the BUN/creatinine ratio, I found this: and

Re: your quotes: upper GI bleeding CAN be caused by h. pylori (I know the test came back negative) and also by gastritis- which can be caused by pernicious anemia and/or parasites. Have you tested B12 yet?
As for the oatstraw.. Is it possible that it took a while to fill your allergy bucket, but also that you had a delayed reaction so that when the reaction hit, you'd already been filling your bucket for a while? (I hope that makes sense.)

[changingseasons]

Oh yeah- I forgot to mention that the first time I tried the oatstraw, I was crazy grumpy for the rest of the day. Thought it was coincidence.

I asked for B12 to be tested on DD's bloodtests last week, but I'm not sure if actually got on there. The ped missed a few that I asked for, so we went back for a 2nd draw, and more was missed... and I'm not taking the poor kid back for a 3rd. I also asked for iron & ferritin- ferritin is the only thing I see on the 1st set of results and it seems ok- lower end of normal, but still well within the normal range. That would be low with anemia, right? Oh- and all stool tests (I think we've done 3 or 4?) came back clear on parasites.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Yasko recommended supps:

GABA (direct supplementation - not "supposed" to cross the blood-brain barrier. HA!)

Valerian root - low levels of natural GABA, also helps GABA receptors

Grapeseed extract - helps with glutamate receptors, also seems to tackle glutamate directly

Pycnogenol - helps with glutamate receptors, some people react badly to it (it's the most likely of this list to cause issues, works great for DS)

keep calcium low (glutamate opens the gate, calcium runs though - Yasko likes high normal mag and low normal calcium, and doesn't recommend supping calcium at all, even GFCF, just using nettles & chamomile if necessary. Calcium supps make DS crazy, dairy doesn't, fwiw).

address very low lithium with 1/4 tab a day or less of lithium orotate

Those are the core ones most people use.

mamfish9, by your comment about direct supping of GABA, are you saying that you wouldn't recommend that one, because maybe it does?


Is the BUN:Creatinine ratio test the best way to tell if you have glutamate issues? What are the symptoms? Is it mainly just super wired, bouncing off the walls, can't settle down, takes hours to fall asleep at night, that kind of stuff?


And, if you are supping B12 on the higher side, what other things do you need to be sure you are taking with it?

[lil_miss_understood]

Sorry for hijacking. Back to your regularly scheduled glutamate discussion... I'll respond in chat.

[Theloose]

Meat isn't pure protein - if you look at actual protein grams per total grams, it isn't as high as you'd think. And choose a fatty cut, and it's not that bad at all.

Pernicious anemia is not affected by iron (ferritin), just folate/b12.

Lots of kids see major benefit from GABA sups, even though it shouldn't be crossing the blood brain barrier.

Going with the assumption that glutamate/GABA is an issue for the vast majority of us/our kids... What would be a test that proves it's *not* an issue for someone?

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

So what exactly is a charcoal flush? Similar to a C flush??
(

See Diego's thread for more details. Take an activated charcoal capsule, and follow that an hour later by enough mag to guarantee a poop, ideally within 12-24 hours. That likely wouldn't be a big deal with your DD, it would probably just firm her poops up, but have some mag ready in case you need it.

Originally Posted by momofmine

mamfish9, by your comment about direct supping of GABA, are you saying that you wouldn't recommend that one, because maybe it does?
...
And, if you are supping B12 on the higher side, what other things do you need to be sure you are taking with it?

No, the GABA doesn't have any effect unless it crosses into the brain, and lots of scientists claim it "can't". Yeah, they should see my child on GABA .

For high B12, I'd be on a little mthf folate (200mcg/day), a little folinic acid (same basic quantity). And a decent multi or the equivalent in separate supps. I don't think B12 really drains your system of obvious other stuff - Shannon, do you know of any?

Originally Posted by whoMe

Going with the assumption that glutamate/GABA is an issue for the vast majority of us/our kids... What would be a test that proves it's *not* an issue for someone?

Hmmm. Well, here's one idea.

Take a capsule of GABA and see what effect you get. No effect, try 2 capsules (1 morning, 1 afternoon). No effect, try 3. If no effect at 3, or it only makes you sleepy, and nothing else good happens (more calm, more focused, more content, better sleep, more social - at least those are the good effects for ASD kids), then you probably don't have low GABA, or gaba/glutamates really out of balance.

Try the same test with grapeseed extract (working up to 3 a day if necessary). If no effect at 3 (you're looking for the same basic effects as with the gaba), you most likely don't have glutamate issues.

(So, 3 day test for each, these supps work fast, it won't take long to know if it works).

With DS, who according to testing doesn't have any serious gaba/glutamate imbalances, we get nice effects at 2/3 capsule gaba a day and 1 grapeseed extract.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

For high B12, I'd be on a little mthf folate (200mcg/day), a little folinic acid (same basic quantity). And a decent multi or the equivalent in separate supps. I don't think B12 really drains your system of obvious other stuff - Shannon, do you know of any?



Hmmm. Well, here's one idea.

Take a capsule of GABA and see what effect you get. No effect, try 2 capsules (1 morning, 1 afternoon). No effect, try 3. If no effect at 3, or it only makes you sleepy, and nothing else good happens (more calm, more focused, more content, better sleep, more social - at least those are the good effects for ASD kids), then you probably don't have low GABA, or gaba/glutamates really out of balance.

Try the same test with grapeseed extract (working up to 3 a day if necessary). If no effect at 3 (you're looking for the same basic effects as with the gaba), you most likely don't have glutamate issues.

(So, 3 day test for each, these supps work fast, it won't take long to know if it works).

With DS, who according to testing doesn't have any serious gaba/glutamate imbalances, we get nice effects at 2/3 capsule gaba a day and 1 grapeseed extract.

B12 (and b6) are water soluble vitamins that are actually stored in the body, so I think they act different from the other b's in terms of imbalances.

Or the GABA test shows you actually have a functioning blood brain barrier I like the way you're thinking, though. Do you know if both are generally considered safe?