Advising Others Against CIO - Page 2

[Baby_Cakes]

Originally Posted by Path2Felicity

Has anybody else been in a similar situation? Do you just keep your mouth shut? Do you speak up?

For me, it depends. If I'm outnumbered, I might stay quiet. Or I'll admit I didn't do it/wouldn't be able to do it.

Originally Posted by Path2Felicity

I know that it's none of my business what other moms do with their babies. And, I know this may not seem like a big problem to other people. I'm sorry I'm taking up so much web space discussing this. I just (literally) have a physical reaction when I see new, vulnerable mothers talk about how wonderful CIO is. And, I'm studying to be a birth educator and lactation consultant, so I'm sure these issues will come up in both scenarios. I just don't know how to seem non-judgmental and get my message across at the same time.

I once had a co-worker make me feel very guilty b/c my 6 mo wasn't STTN, and told me I needed to CIO, b/c didn't I know how important sleep was for her?? Why wouldn't I want her to get a good nights sleep?

It's hard to be put on the spot when we don't agree with something. To that woman I basically said, "Look, I'm really happy it worked for you. I'm glad your son is still happy and wakes up smiling and loving. But I'm just not willing to sit and listen to my daughter cry. I don't know what sort of effects that has down the line, and I'm really not interested in doing it. But, thanks."

It's one thing to educate a new mom who hasn't done CIO yet. It's another thing to disagree with and possibly offend a mom/dad who has already "survived" CIO. Nobody I know who has done it has enjoyed it. They all think it's awful. They do it b/c they think they have to. They work full time, or they are incredibly sleep deprived, or whatever reason they NEED sleep. People do horrible things out of desperation. It's not our place to judge them or try to tell them they did something wrong.

Your best bet? Keep it simple. "Oh, I just could never do that. I'm just not strong enough I guess," while inside you know you're a million times stronger, b/c you won't do this sort of thing to your child.

[Path2Felicity]

Haha, maybe I will just wear this shirt at our next gathering:

http://madebymomma.spreadshirt.com/y...mize/color/187

[lellian]

PLEASE, please, please don't flame me because we are not practicing CIO, but I am writing as a super exhausted mother of a 5 month old who woke up 12 times between 1 am and 7 am this morning. . .and only after we got her to bed around 10 because she wouldn't sleep more than an hour between 730-830 last night. Her bedtime has become a power nap, and then we struggle for good quality sleep for her ALL night long because she's over tired.

We co-sleep, nurse on demand, baby wear, etc. I understand attachment parenting, and we do our best every day to meet her needs immediately. She is a gorgeously, happy, non-crying baby.

The reason I'm posting is because I would figure that most of us on this board were left to CIO at some point and we turned out fine, right? Maybe your mother was ahead of the curve and didn't let you CIO, but I don't have a single friend my age who's mom didn't practice CIO. I know it was a different time period, and it was before the scientific evidence started to mount against CIO and brain development, but do you understand what I'm saying. . .we turned out just fine, didn't we?

I had my baby later in life, so my brother and sisters kids are now ages 16-6, all of them CIO babies, all of them perfectly healthy, well adjusted, active, happy kids. I see them and it makes it harder on me daily to stick to my resolve to NOT "sleep train" or CIO even for a limited amount of time to just see what she does.

Sleep for me will come whenever it comes. This isn't about me, but baby need good quality sleep too. Sleep deprivation in babies is a real issue, as well as how it affects baby's growth and development. If she wakes up 12 times a night, or wakes up every single time I move (and she does) then how am I best helping her to get the sleep she needs? Side car doesn't work. If I transfer her, she wakes up, fully up, and we start the routine again of trying to get her to sleep, so three hours later she's asleep on daddy or mommy.

I've read allllllll the books. One expect says one thing, the other another, another expect has a different opinion still. There are as many opinions as there are mommies and doctors.

[Path2Felicity]

Originally Posted by lellian

PLEASE, please, please don't flame me because we are not practicing CIO, but I am writing as a super exhausted mother of a 5 month old who woke up 12 times between 1 am and 7 am this morning. . .and only after we got her to bed around 10 because she wouldn't sleep more than an hour between 730-830 last night. Her bedtime has become a power nap, and then we struggle for good quality sleep for her ALL night long because she's over tired.

We co-sleep, nurse on demand, baby wear, etc. I understand attachment parenting, and we do our best every day to meet her needs immediately. She is a gorgeously, happy, non-crying baby.

The reason I'm posting is because I would figure that most of us on this board were left to CIO at some point and we turned out fine, right? Maybe your mother was ahead of the curve and didn't let you CIO, but I don't have a single friend my age who's mom didn't practice CIO. I know it was a different time period, and it was before the scientific evidence started to mount against CIO and brain development, but do you understand what I'm saying. . .we turned out just fine, didn't we?

I had my baby later in life, so my brother and sisters kids are now ages 16-6, all of them CIO babies, all of them perfectly healthy, well adjusted, active, happy kids. I see them and it makes it harder on me daily to stick to my resolve to NOT "sleep train" or CIO even for a limited amount of time to just see what she does.

Sleep for me will come whenever it comes. This isn't about me, but baby need good quality sleep too. Sleep deprivation in babies is a real issue, as well as how it affects baby's growth and development. If she wakes up 12 times a night, or wakes up every single time I move (and she does) then how am I best helping her to get the sleep she needs? Side car doesn't work. If I transfer her, she wakes up, fully up, and we start the routine again of trying to get her to sleep, so three hours later she's asleep on daddy or mommy.

I've read allllllll the books. One expect says one thing, the other another, another expect has a different opinion still. There are as many opinions as there are mommies and doctors.

5 months was an awful age for us in terms of sleep. DD was teething and going through a very big growth spurt. I'm sorry you are so frustrated, mama. It's so not an easy age. Are you sure there is no medical reason for her wakings?

Maybe cosleeping isn't the best idea in your situation if she moves every time you breathe? Maybe the best thing to do is have her sleep on you and then when she is in a deep sleep, transfer her to a crib like place? When DD was having issues sleeping, I'd side nurse her, then get up and go sleep on the couch while she either slept with DH on the bed or by herself (we have railings on the side of our bed to prevent her from falling). Sorry if you've tried this already.

As far as your points about CIO and turning out fine. I honestly don't know what it means to turn out fine. We all think we've turned out fine... but how do we know what the results would be if things were done to us in a different way? I think I may be one of the few people here whose mom never did any sort of CIO with me... because in my parents' culture (we are from the Middle East), it was never acceptable until very recently. Do I think that I am some how turned out better than parents who left their babies to CIO? Not at all. I don't even know what that means. I just know that there is probably a reason why we have a biological need to respond to our baby's cries. And, I'm sure you've heard all the other reasons why people don't do CIO, so I won't sit here and pretend to educate you.

In the end, you have to do what is best for you and your baby. I can only offer you my limited support online. I am not with you in the middle of the night and I am not making decisions about the well being of your family. Only you are And, you seem like a very thoughtful person.

I hope this thread has not offended you at all. It is not my intention.

[JollyGG]

Originally Posted by hakeber

I'm not a confrontational person myself, so I usually just say "I could never stand to hear the baby cry like that. It physically hurt me. Instead I find XYZ helps baby fall asleep better. This has worked far better than leaving LO to cry. Works like a charm...90% of the time"

For example: Swaddling, white noise, side positioning, swinging/rocking bed, lullabies, bed time routines, lovies, patting, etc.

They seem to be relieved to hear ALTERNATIVES...because the truth is most people just don't know what else to do! They genuinely believe that CIO is the only viable option...I say the best route is to offer what your solution is.

This is pretty close to our experience as well. I usually say something like: "Oh DH and I just couldn't handle listening to baby cry. It just broke our hearts and we couldn't do it. We found a great book. (we then recommend a few gentle sleep books). Plus everyone we know who does the whole CIO thing find they have to redo it after every vacation, new tooth, ill baby, growth spurt. We just don't have the energy for that. After our first we discovered that just relaxing and not worrying so much if they are sleeping through the night worked for us. Just taking turns and knowing that this too shall pass it what really worked for us."

[tzs]

Originally Posted by Path2Felicity

My struggle is that I don't know how to make my alternative sound better. New moms only hear "my baby sleeps through the night now" "it's tough at first but then the baby is a muuuch better sleeper" "i am a better mom now that i can sleep longer" "my baby only cried one hour" "my baby is much more independent now" "bedtime is so much easier now" ... and what can I possibly say that will make responding to my baby's cries seem more appealing? The only way I can do that is if I make the emotional appeal and say that babies need us and that is why i respond to the babies. But, if I say that, then the other moms get offended. So, it's tricky for me.

this is the problem for me too. it seems that whenever it is being discussed by my pals it always "works." usually the only regret is that they hadn't done it sooner. and really there's no good response for that. it's not like you can spout off some theory of how they emotionally traumatized their child forever because for one, that would be horribly rude even if we knew without a doubt it was true and secondly, we're probably all going to emotionally traumatize our kids in some way or another before they hit 18. (my own mother still has to listen to me complain about how they made me give my blue frisbee to my brother when we were 5 because he was sick and how they must've loved him more and i'm in my 30's!)

and it's not like i can really give alternate ideas because so far (knock on wood) we've really had no real sleep "problems."

so i just end up chalking these discussions up to a learning experience about other peoples' choices just like i would expect them to respect the ones that i had made.

[MommatoAandA]

I know how you feel. Believe me. My personal parenting struggle with friends and people I talk to is intactivism/circing. We glorify it and it makes me ill. But back to the topic at hand. I understand that it stinks to hear mothers glorify CIO, but by offering alternatives to moms you are doing just about all you can. I don't know many moms who like to hear their baby cry. We are not supposed to be able to biologically ignore the sound. At any rate, CIO may sound good in the moment, but when they are faced with the actual deed, they may remember your alternative suggestions as their baby vomits, screams, coughs, and gags themselves into sleep.

I would give moms your card if you have one, your email if not and ask for theirs. Tell them you have some great literature for them to read and then shoot them an email. Being away from the group pressuring them, may make it easier on the both of you. She will be more inclined to listen too.

I think a lot of the time dads are into CIO (not all, but a lot I know). My DP can listen to the kids scream and not be as affected as I am. He doesn't love it, but it doesn't feel like someone is hammering at his bones either. I have gotten to the point with him right now, where I looked at him and said, "I am not sure where the disconnect is for you in the previous statements I have made, but our baby is not to be left to CIO, 2 minutes of WHINING, ok, screaming for 10 minutes, NOT. CIO is ineffective and does not promote bonding, if you want easy, we should have gotten a fish, not had a baby." He knew I meant business. So I think sometimes there is more support for CIO from the male counter part in the equation, too.

CIO is one of those things thatin theory sounds ok, but when you actually carry it out it is horrific. I feel sorry for the babies it "worked" on. All they feel is despair.

Just try not to internalize it so much. One thing I had to learn as an Intactavist is, I cannot save every baby from being cut. It hurts and I think about those babies everyday, but it is just not in my power. Sometimes you just have to let it go.

[MommatoAandA]

I did want to add my success story too and sometimes this works for me when going against CIO advocates:

My oldest is 3. Her and I had a rough start. Horrible PPD, breastfeeding issues, I had body image issues, my relationship was in an awful place. We did not cosleep, breastfeeding didn't work out, she had allergies, sensitivities, colic, lactose intollerance, anaphylactic episodes, the whole nine. We never bonded. I left her to CIO, often. I just couldn't do it and DP was working 100 plus hours and we were just not in love at that time. I hated him, he hated me, we were losing our house and his business. I hated my baby. HATED HER. I still couldn't listen to her cry. So my mom often took her. I was not well. But we DID CIO. There was little bonding, i'd say none. She still wakes at night crying, needs constant attention and reassurance and coddling.

Fast forward 2 years. I have DD2. I am personally in a good place and emotionally loving this new being. I am DEAD set on nursing and co-sleeping happens. DP and I are in LOVE with our baby. In awe of her. She never cries, is never away from me longer than 1 hour and just LOVES her momma. At 6 months I am forced to wean her. She starts sleeping in a pack and play and immediately is STTN. She is SO secure. I wore her, never let her cry or fuss or want for anything. She is the most easy going baby ever.

I truly think that the peaceful parenting practiced with DD2 has nurtered an easy going happy child. She is a joy. My 3 year old is a constant struggle. when I look at her, I see pain, I see all my parenting mistakes and how I will spend a lot of time making up for what I did to her.

[hakeber]

It's tough to fight against "it works". No doubt.

I am a teacher and one of the things I like to do is ask questions that reveal the holes in one's philosophy. So I would ask..."So when you have an upset in your schedule, did you find you had to start over again?", "When the baby is sick, do you have to put it on hold and then start again when he/she is better?" "Do you think she's learned to sleep better, or do you think she's learned not to call for you anymore?" "Do you think it's a good idea to train your kids not to call out for you when they feel sad, scared or lonely?" "Do you think you'll back on the first five years of your child's life and wish you had spent less time with them at night?" "Do you think in retrospect you'll wish you hadn't comforted them?"

Very non-judgemental, just open ended questions as though genuinely interested in why they feel it works.

Then I say: I figure when i look back on the first five years of my child's life, I will wish I had spent more nights holding them and reading stories. It's brutal right now. All I want is one good night's sleep, but then on the other hand, it would be awfully sad to think I shut the door on my child when all they wanted was to spend more time with me knowing full well in the blink of an eye they will want their independence and be kicking me out of their room. I for one would rather spend two hours reading stories and singing lullabyes and rocking in a chair holding them, then spend two hours listening to them cry. But hey, that's me. No judgement!

I know it's hard, and I acknowledge that some babies do need a good whine to drift off, but I don't know that one can be taught to sleep by being left on their own. All you can do is give them everything they need to feel safe and peaceful enough to drift off.

I find conceding their points and then countering them with your version of logic and truth makes people feel listened to, and allows them to hear your truth more openly.

Of course you have to prepare yourself that they will call you selfish, crazy, and negligent. That's their truth. But maybe you will plant a seed and in time it may grow.

[jennybear]

Originally Posted by lellian

PLEASE, please, please don't flame me because we are not practicing CIO, but I am writing as a super exhausted mother of a 5 month old who woke up 12 times between 1 am and 7 am this morning. . .and only after we got her to bed around 10 because she wouldn't sleep more than an hour between 730-830 last night. Her bedtime has become a power nap, and then we struggle for good quality sleep for her ALL night long because she's over tired.

We co-sleep, nurse on demand, baby wear, etc. I understand attachment parenting, and we do our best every day to meet her needs immediately. She is a gorgeously, happy, non-crying baby.

The reason I'm posting is because I would figure that most of us on this board were left to CIO at some point and we turned out fine, right? Maybe your mother was ahead of the curve and didn't let you CIO, but I don't have a single friend my age who's mom didn't practice CIO. I know it was a different time period, and it was before the scientific evidence started to mount against CIO and brain development, but do you understand what I'm saying. . .we turned out just fine, didn't we?

I had my baby later in life, so my brother and sisters kids are now ages 16-6, all of them CIO babies, all of them perfectly healthy, well adjusted, active, happy kids. I see them and it makes it harder on me daily to stick to my resolve to NOT "sleep train" or CIO even for a limited amount of time to just see what she does.

Sleep for me will come whenever it comes. This isn't about me, but baby need good quality sleep too. Sleep deprivation in babies is a real issue, as well as how it affects baby's growth and development. If she wakes up 12 times a night, or wakes up every single time I move (and she does) then how am I best helping her to get the sleep she needs? Side car doesn't work. If I transfer her, she wakes up, fully up, and we start the routine again of trying to get her to sleep, so three hours later she's asleep on daddy or mommy.

I've read allllllll the books. One expect says one thing, the other another, another expect has a different opinion still. There are as many opinions as there are mommies and doctors.

Have you tried moving her to her own room? DD has been sleeping in her own room since 4 months and sleeps much, much better there. It's a bit of a PITA transition at first (you won't sleep much for a few nights), but it's fabulous now. Lots of babes do wonderfully co-sleeping, but some really do better in their own space.