When other kids act out

[sgmom]

There was a thread on here a while back, but I can't seem to find it. I'm just wondering how you all would handle this.

My friend was here this afternoon with her 12 month old daughter and her 30 month old son. He's pretty grabby ("NO! MINE!!") and today (for the first time) he shoved her hard enough that she fell backwards (they were sitting at the time). She wasn't hurt, but she seemed a bit upset (she got up and came to me, sort of crying a whiny "why's he do that" cry).

My instinct was to meet her half way and give her a hug, saying "I saw that he shoved you! That wasn't very nice for him to push you like that. Are you hurt?" Then I checked her for boo-boo's and made a little game out of not finding any, then sent her back to play. My friend dealt with her son (she's fairly GD, but she'll give warnings and time outs when he doesn't listen), and when I sent my daughter back I asked him if he wanted to play with her now, and that she's going to share her toy with him. But if he won't share with her, then I'd have to take the toy away.

A typical reaction for her would be to give up the toy, and move on to something else. Later (when we were outside, for example) he decided that wanted her sunglasses (her FAVORITE pair) and tried to take them right off her face. She sat there quietly and calmly, just pushing them into her face as hard as she could, while he yanked (screaming, etc) on the earpiece. As soon as we stopped him, she adjusted her glasses and carried on with what she was doing.

But how do you react when a child does something that upsets your own (like when he shoved her)?

[phathui5]

"That wasn't very nice for him to push you like that."

I would leave this part out, especially when you're talking about someone else's child. The kids know it wasn't nice and for me as a parent, it's really annoying to hear someone labeling my kid "not nice." The child you're talking about here is only 2 1/2, and they tend to be very physical.

[sgmom]

While I might agree with you, this wasn't a strangers kid. This was one of my best friends. She tries to do GD (and is usually pretty good at it), but she's a very much "THAT WAS NOT NICE! Say you're sorry, or you're going to time out." kind of mom. I would react different to her than I would a kid I didn't know well (or who's parents, I should say). I would NEVER say that HE wasn't nice, but I would comment on the childs behavior.

I'm not really looking for advice on how I handled this situation though... I'm looking for opinions on how you would handle it, in a general sense (like if this happened at a public playground, or playgroup with people you knew).

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by phathui5

I would leave this part out, especially when you're talking about someone else's child. The kids know it wasn't nice and for me as a parent, it's really annoying to hear someone labeling my kid "not nice."

Donning my flame proof suit here... but, pushing isn't nice. I don't really understand the value of shielding kids from what is probably going to be a societal reaction to inappropriate behavior. Part of learning what is right and what is wrong, is getting a handle on what is appropriate and inappropriate, not only within a family structure, but out in the real word. Society as a whole. Pushing is not socially acceptable.

It kind of ties into people trying to absolutely never ever let their kid feel shame and embarrassment for having done something wrong. And while I strive not to embarrass my kid in the sense that she feel uncomfortable in a room full of people because her mother is berating her ( ), I do feel that sometimes allowing children to experience the embarrassment or shame that comes with being called out for "not nice" behavior is part of what teaches them that it's not socially acceptable.

I don't see the harm in a.) explaining to a 30 month old that it's not nice to push other people, that it can hurt, etc etc, and b.) validate the feelings of the child being pushed.

I guess I just don't see the big deal in teaching children that pushing, shoving, hitting, pinching, biting, etc is wrong or not nice by simply saying "that's not nice". Because it's not.

I'm not labeling the child, just the action. I know plenty of lovely children who get to that age and start hitting or biting, and it's not that they're not nice, because they're perfectly fine. But they should also know that the action of hitting someone else is not a nice thing to do.

But at that age, at the risk of being accused of being a praise junkie, I was mindful of pointing out when the behavior WAS nice. How else do they learn the difference?

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by sgmom

But how do you react when a child does something that upsets your own (like when he shoved her)?

It really depends on the situation, and what the other parent is doing. But if my daughter is being bully, or shoved, or what have you by another child, I'll usually gently intercept. In the case of the other child trying to take her sunglasses, I would have stepped in and said something like "she really likes those sunglasses and they help her see in the bright sun, please don't take them from her". I might also try redirecting the child to something of his own, just because at 30 months old it's easier to deflect situations like that rather than flat out saying "no! don't do that!", you know?

I think it's important for our kids to know that we got their backs. I might accidentally step on toes, and Lord knows it's happened to me when I've gotten distracted and my daughter did something/tried to take something from another child, but I don't take it personally. I don't think it's right for someone's child to get mauled, have their stuff stolen, and get pushed around because we don't feel like we should say anything to someone else's child, or to our own in the moment. Oh the horrors!!

I guess it depends on whether or not you buy into the whole "it takes a village thing". If not, then your time out in public should be spent intently following your child around so that you are always 100% tuned in to what's going on so that nobody else has to say or do anything on your behalf, or to their own child to appease the situation. I can't imagine being that focused ALL the time, personally. Sometimes I like to watch the clouds or smell the flowers, too.

[quietserena]

Personally, I try to redirect other people's kids too, especially like in a case with the sunglasses. "Show me how to kick this ball really hard!"

As far as the shoving and pushing goes, this happens in my own family and I try to focus on the victim and not so much on what happened to get her there. So, I would do a similar thing with making sure she is ok, offering comfort and such. However, this in my house gets done mostly for the benefit of the shover. (If a child falls by herself, we just get by with "wow, that was a good one!" or just a simple "are you ok".)

Maybe the best thing is to step in before any aggressive stuff happens and try to prevent it.

I wasn't sure before, but I guess I buy into the whole village thing. My only problem is when the village isnt as gentle as I am trying to be... So, I try to parent other people's kids too but really only if my own are upset. If something that another kid is doing really isnt upsetting my own then and isn't dangerous, then it seems best to keep watching.

[EdnaMarie]

I would probably have dealt with my own child differently- oops-a-daisy, mwah-mwah-mwah, off you go, and definitely would not mention the other child's behavior. Certainly not threaten to take the toy away if he didn't shape up. I'm not opposed to social consequences or anything, it's just that it's not my kid.

I would more likely re-direct the play generally if I had time to assess what was happening. For example, was he hounding the baby? Did he need directed play? (These are rhetorical questions I'd consider myself, I'm not asking the OP.) Was there a toy they all wanted? How could we arrange to share it? That type of thing. Especially at his age--babies really excite them.

"Maybe the best thing is to step in before any aggressive stuff happens and try to prevent it."

I agree but I always think, well, since we're not perfect, stuff IS going to come up, and when it does, that is when these threads and discussions are useful.

[junipermuse]

With the shoving, I would just say "oh he pushed you and you didn't like that" I'd check for any real injury and then tell her to let him know she doesn't like to be pushed. If she's fairly young and not very verbal I might suggest she tell him "no pushing!" If she is more verbal I'd suggest "I don't like when you push me, it hurts my body". I definitely leave out the part about it not being nice, my goal for children is not for them to always be nice, being "nice" all the time is phony, I want children to be genuine, however they can't hurt each other. If they are feeling mean or angry, it's my job to help them find a way to express it without hurting someone else. But they don't have to be "nice"

With the glasses I would probably jump in and stop the boy from taking them if I could tell that my child didn't want to share them, but just wasn't able to communicate that to the other child. I would probably say " It looks like you really want those glasses, but I can see dd is holding on to them very tightly. She doesn't want to share them right now and I'm not going to let you take them from her. Let's go see if we can find another pair for you." If the other child didn't want to look for another pair and instead started throwing a fit I would just move dd away from him and leave the fit for his mother to handle. I might say to dd "wow he really wants a turn with your glasses, maybe in a while you'll feel like sharing"

Also you really have to keep in mind that 30 months is still really young in the scheme of things. He's acting like a two and half year old acts. I don't consider that misbehavior, even though it is behavior that needs guidance so he can learn to act in a more socially acceptable manner.

[EdnaMarie]

"With the glasses I would probably jump in and stop the boy from taking them if I could tell that my child didn't want to share them, but just wasn't able to communicate that to the other child. I would probably say " It looks like you really want those glasses, but I can see dd is holding on to them very tightly. She doesn't want to share them right now and I'm not going to let you take them from her. Let's go see if we can find another pair for you." If the other child didn't want to look for another pair and instead started throwing a fit I would just move dd away from him and leave the fit for his mother to handle. I might say to dd "wow he really wants a turn with your glasses, maybe in a while you'll feel like sharing"

I think that's a really good way to deal with that.

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

In the case of the other child trying to take her sunglasses, I would have stepped in and said something like "she really likes those sunglasses and they help her see in the bright sun, please don't take them from her". I might also try redirecting the child to something of his own, just because at 30 months old it's easier to deflect situations like that rather than flat out saying "no! don't do that!", you know?

I think it's important for our kids to know that we got their backs.

I completely agree, and this is EXACTLY how I reacted, with almost those exact words (wheras his mom would've said "No! Those belong to her. Give those back. Don't grab." etc). I told him that the sun was bright and she needed her glasses so her eyes didn't hurt, then offered him his (he didn't want his, he wanted hers), and when he started to tantrum (throw himself down, scream, kick, etc), his mom stepped in and distracted him with a game of "That wasn't very nice! You need to be hung outside to dry!", then hung him by his ankles and swung him around.

At 2.5 years old though, he's very capable of understanding that if we can't play nicely, we can't play at all. He's also able to make a decision to do so, or move onto something else. I have no problems with offering him this choice. I would not offer than option (to take the toy away) if the problem had nothing to do with sharing. But when two people play together with one toy, there HAS to be cooperation there. She's a VERY placid child, very content, easy going, etc. When younger children come over, they can poke her in the eye and she'll just close her eyes and wait for them to stop. Like with the sunglasses. She just doesn't seem interested in fighting back unless she feels she has to, and I've only ever really seen her stand her ground once (with no violence!). I was secretly quite proud of her. LOL

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

With the shoving, I would just say "oh he pushed you and you didn't like that" I'd check for any real injury and then tell her to let him know she doesn't like to be pushed. If she's fairly young and not very verbal I might suggest she tell him "no pushing!" If she is more verbal I'd suggest "I don't like when you push me, it hurts my body". I definitely leave out the part about it not being nice, my goal for children is for them to always be nice, being "nice" all the time is phony, I want children to be genuine, however they can't hurt each other. If they are feeling mean or angry, it's my job to help them find a way to express it without hurting someone else. But they don't have to be "nice"

With the glasses I would probably jump in and stop the boy from taking them if I could tell that my child didn't want to share them, but just wasn't able to communicate that to the other child. I would probably say " It looks like you really want those glasses, but I can see dd is holding on to them very tightly. She doesn't want to share them right now and I'm not going to let you take them from her. Let's go see if we can find another pair for you." If the other child didn't want to look for another pair and instead started throwing a fit I would just move dd away from him and leave the fit for his mother to handle. I might say to dd "wow he really wants a turn with your glasses, maybe in a while you'll feel like sharing"

I love this! Although I'm not sure if that would have worked with the glasses situation. He's a pretty spastic kid (for lack of a nicer way of saying it), and he was MAD that she wasn't giving them up. He really would not have cared one way or another how she felt, or that you were offering to help him find another pair. He wanted HER glasses, and was mad that we were interfering with that. No amount of distraction is going to stop him from slamming himself to the ground in a limp screaming mess.

As for the shoving, it was COMPLETELY out of the blue. They were playing nicely, then I guess she did something he didn't like and he just shoved her. He did it quickly, and almost without remorse. And when he acts out like this, he apologizes because his mother tells him to. Not because he's truly sorry. Sometimes he'll even say something like "NO! MINE!", grab the object very rudely, then say (usually after looking at his mom) "I'm sorry! Please!" Then he'll say "thank you", but no correction has been made. He said his please and thank you's. It's very frustrating for me, as she's one of my closest friends.

Originally Posted by junipermuse

He's acting like a two and half year old acts.

I was with you right up to this. It bothers me when people label a childs behavior on their age. While it's true that at 2.5 he's still in high learning mode, but not all children of his age are grabby and violent, and quick to throw tantrums when they don't get their way. He's been like this since a very young age, and quite honestly I believe that at least a part of it is a learned behavior. I've watched his mother tell him that he has to share and that it's "not nice to take something from his sister", then forcefully grab the object right back out of his hand.

However, this isn't about him... There are some great suggestions in this thread!

[seawind]

Originally Posted by sgmom

At 2.5 years old though, he's very capable of understanding that if we can't play nicely, we can't play at all. He's also able to make a decision to do so, or move onto something else. I have no problems with offering him this choice. I would not offer than option (to take the toy away) if the problem had nothing to do with sharing. But when two people play together with one toy, there HAS to be cooperation there. She's a VERY placid child, very content, easy going, etc. When younger children come over, they can poke her in the eye and she'll just close her eyes and wait for them to stop. Like with the sunglasses. She just doesn't seem interested in fighting back unless she feels she has to, and I've only ever really seen her stand her ground once (with no violence!). I was secretly quite proud of her. LOL

capable of understanding something and controlling an impulse are two different things. that part might not converge until they are four and older for some kids, especially boys. not many 30 month olds are ready to "make a decision" to move on and let things be. it never fails to amaze me how many parents tend to view OTHER children through the prism of their OWN child's behavior. your little girl is only 12 months, i know it feels bad to see an older child pushing and grabbing things from your little one. it may be possible that one day she goes through that difficult phase/acting out and you understand what it is like to have behavior from children one is NOT proud of.

you might want to stop meeting them if you feel the kids are not a good match.

[sgmom]

My daughter is almost 21 months. Not 12.

Edited to add: I agree with you in impulse control, but that doesn't mean that they don't understand that a choice has been offered. If he were to make the choice to continue playing with the current toy, and continue to not be able to "play nicely", then I would step in and help them to learn. But if he made the decision to move on to something else, then I would allow him that choice.

There are times when my daughter doesn't want to share a certain toy of hers, and that's fine. But when that happens, that toy needs to go into her bedroom. It's just not fair that she's allowed to play with it in the play area, and no one else is. Nor is it fair that her friends come over and won't share her own toys with her (nor would I expect that behavior if we were at a friends house).

I believe that our jobs as parents is to help and guide them into making healthy choices, not tell them what to do or how to do it. But they should still be allowed the freedom to make a decision on their own before we step in to make one for them (like helping to learn how to share... if he wasn't interested in sharing a toy, there would be no point is us as parents to force that upon him).

[sgmom]

I hope that made sense. My 3 week old woke up so I rushed to finish my thought.

Originally Posted by seawind

it never fails to amaze me how many parents tend to view OTHER children through the prism of their OWN child's behavior.

I hope you're not making a direct implication towards my comments. I've got 16 years of experience (both part/full time and live-in) with other peoples kids before having my own. Mine is certainly no exception.

[seawind]

fairness, sharing, giving- well intentioned parents are trying to get those concepts across to kids as best they can. having come this far in my parenting journey, i just know that because my kid has never given me cause to expect certain behaviors (nice or otherwise), i don't expect other kids to behave the same as her. it sounds as if this child understands choice but has impulses that override that choice. like i said, if it's not a good fit, move on.

i just read your new post, yes it was in response to your comments about your child's behavior vis a vis the little boy's behavior. i am sure your long experience will have assured you that this child's behavior is certainly not out of the norm for his age. i think if you meet this boy 3 yrs down the line, these behaviors won't be a concern anymore.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by sgmom

I was with you right up to this. It bothers me when people label a childs behavior on their age. While it's true that at 2.5 he's still in high learning mode, but not all children of his age are grabby and violent, and quick to throw tantrums when they don't get their way. He's been like this since a very young age, and quite honestly I believe that at least a part of it is a learned behavior. I've watched his mother tell him that he has to share and that it's "not nice to take something from his sister", then forcefully grab the object right back out of his hand.

However, this isn't about him... There are some great suggestions in this thread!

I think I get what you're saying, but the truth is a child's age does affect the way he acts (along with a whole bunch of other factors like temperment, discipline style of parents, sleep, diet, how well they feel that day, stress and change in their life). Just because not all children who are 2.5 are grabby, throw tantrums and are sometimes aggresive, doesn't mean that it's reasonable to expect this 2.5 year old to control his impulses. It is still developmentally normal for a child to act in this way and that was my point. Though from your description he may also have an intense temperment which can make a child's behavior particularly challenging as well. I wouldn't be so quick to assume it's a learned behavior. I have a child who is very quick to throw a tantrum over all sorts of tiny little things and it has much more to do with her intense personality. She goes beyond just being persistent, she is relentless. Though as a parent I realize it is my responsibility to continue learning and growing and adding more techniques to my toolbox. I think you can help your friend by modeling new ways of dealing with behaviors as well as by setting firm boundaries for how you, your dd and your things will be treated. In the situation with the glasses if he throws a fit when you set the limit on the glasses than I would pick dd up and move her somewhere safe so he couldn't hurt her. Tantrums are the way 2.5 year olds process intense emotions and he should be allowed to process his feelings as long as he doesn't hurt anyone or anything.

[mizzoh]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

With the shoving, I would just say "oh he pushed you and you didn't like that" I'd check for any real injury and then tell her to let him know she doesn't like to be pushed. If she's fairly young and not very verbal I might suggest she tell him "no pushing!" If she is more verbal I'd suggest "I don't like when you push me, it hurts my body". I definitely leave out the part about it not being nice, my goal for children is for them to always be nice, being "nice" all the time is phony, I want children to be genuine, however they can't hurt each other. If they are feeling mean or angry, it's my job to help them find a way to express it without hurting someone else. But they don't have to be "nice"

[sgmom]

I was commenting on her personality (very passive) and this thread is about suggestions about ways you all might handle a situation like this, involving other children. He was just the example.

As for him though, he's been tested for autism (no major signs yet), so it's hard to say that these behaviors would not be a concern in three years from now (and he's a LOT like his father). I'm not comparing the two, so my apologies if that's how it came off.

How you handle a situation like this though, I think also greatly depends on the two children involved. If both are quick to hit and fight, I think it would be handled very differently than if one (like my daughter) just sits back and waits for him to stop. When he grabs a toy from her, she won't pull the toy back, but she usually won't let it go either. She'll just hold on to it until someone comes and stops him. Sometimes she'll let go then move on to something else (if it's not important to her), but the majority of the time, she'll just stand there and wait.

[junipermuse]

I just wanted to add one more thing. If my child were very passive like you describe yours, I would really focus on helping her express her self and assert her needs to the other child. It really helps children to have adults model the appropriate language and to have adults encourage them to practice using that language to get their needs met.

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

II think you can help your friend by modeling new ways of dealing with behaviors as well as by setting firm boundaries for how you, your dd and your things will be treated. In the situation with the glasses if he throws a fit when you set the limit on the glasses than I would pick dd up and move her somewhere safe so he couldn't hurt her. Tantrums are the way 2.5 year olds process intense emotions and he should be allowed to process his feelings as long as he doesn't hurt anyone or anything.

I was actually about to do this, when his mom pulled him away first.

I completely agree with you on all the rest. I just can't stand when someone says that a kid is acting out "because he's 2" (for example). He's acting out because he doesn't know how to handle his emotions. He's frustrated ("aggressive" is something I don't believe young children are truly capable of being), and is trying to communicate that emotion through such behavior.