Do Your Kids Ever Go to Bed Hungry? - Page 8

[ssh]

Eating isn't a behavior issue it's how we get fuel to be able to stay alive and function. Regular nutrition classes teach that 5 or 6 small meals instead of 3 large ones are healthier. It's not new or controversial opinion just basic human nutrition. A class would also go into how much carbs., protein, specific nutrients you need at different ages and each day. Little kids have very small stomachs and rather high metabolisms so they need food often.

You did ask if it was too harsh letting a 3 year old go to bed hungry and several of us said yes it is ..... or yes it is unhealthy. I've given my reasons from a health based approach instead of saying it's disrespectful, mean or controlling. But, hey, it's also not nice to withhold food from a hungry person. I assumed since you asked you might not be sure if it was or not, so i gave you reasons why I thought it was unhealthy.

In your last post you said "And since my children choose their snacktimes, they always do have access to snacks when they're hungry." . This contradicts your earlier posts where you said your DC wasn't allowed to snack after dinner. And would also mean your 3 year old could snack instead of going to bed hungry. You say in your last post that you don't have issues with food. Well your 3 year old might disagree on those one or two nights a week she's going to bed or the park hungry.

I'm going to assume you understand what I've been saying in response to your questions and that you just don't like my answers.

[Thalia]

Originally Posted by *LoveBugMama*

This.

I just don`t get what people find unhealthy with grazing. Grazing is just eating smaller amounts of food at a time. What might be unhealthy is WHAT people are eating. Not how many times a day they do it.

It can be unhealthy if you have an eating disorder like compulsive overeating, like I do, because the amounts are not likely to be small, but they will be frequent, and unlike most people, you can't rely on your body to tell you when you're full or satisfied, because it is not just about the food. It's like telling an alcoholic to self-regulate with alcohol. In those cases, having some structure (when to eat, how much to eat) can be very helpful.

I don't know if my daughter has the same food issues I do. Mine, as far as I can tell, are genetic and not due to the way my parents parented me. They started very early. There are some indications that DD may have the same abnormal reaction to sugar that I do. But I don't think it's possible to tell this early on.

However, because it is a possibility, the issue of how much to eat and when to eat and what is true hunger vs. emotional eating is very very tricky for me. I choose to err on the side of offering healthy foods that my daughter likes at three meals a day, plus a limited set of healthy snacks during the day when she asks for them, rather than a grazing approach.

There are some foods I won't let her eat, and there are times when I do ask her to wait to eat, depending on the context. If she is about to go to bed, and is in her pajamas and has already brushed her teeth, for example, I do ask her to wait until the morning, because a snack at that point would push her bedtime back by 30 minutes, and she needs sleep as much as she needs food. Usually she goes to bed within an hour after eating, and I don't limit how much she eats at meals, so this is rarely an issue but it does happen sometimes.

Originally Posted by annettemarie

ETA: I don't think there's a one size fits all method for this. There are many contributing factors-- our past experiences with food, family size, budget, family culture, health needs, etc. I think there are many different choices along the continuum that could be done with love and gentleness, and I don't think one is right and one is wrong. I think it's a matter of finding what works for everyone in your family. As long as you are not using food as a punishment (You didn't do what I want so now I won't let you eat), I think it's fine.

I couldn't agree more.

[EdnaMarie]

Eating isn't a behavior issue it's how we get fuel to be able to stay alive and function. Regular nutrition classes teach that 5 or 6 small meals instead of 3 large ones are healthier.

I totally agree with the first part. The second part, I have never heard referenced to a proper study. I've seen it in random "nutrition" websites but I don't know anyone who actually does that who does not have a weight problem.

It's not new or controversial opinion just basic human nutrition. A class would also go into how much carbs., protein, specific nutrients you need at different ages and each day. Little kids have very small stomachs and rather high metabolisms so they need food often.

Most of that's based on the food pyramid which was designed by the farming industry. I completely disagree it's basic human nutrition. People around the world tend to eat three or four meals per day.

In your last post you said "And since my children choose their snacktimes, they always do have access to snacks when they're hungry." . This contradicts your earlier posts where you said your DC wasn't allowed to snack after dinner.

THat is a good point. I guess it comes down to a very specific idea I have about what constitutes a meal or a snack.

Well your 3 year old might disagree on those one or two nights a week she's going to bed or the park hungry.

I'm sorry, but I thought that I said that she almost never goes to bed hungry- perhaps once a month? Because she eats what we all eat, when we all eat it.

I'm going to assume you understand what I've been saying in response to your questions and that you just don't like my answers.

I have been reading posts fast so some of it I've missed, but some of it I genuinely disagree with. I don't find "it's just a fact" convincing evidence of anything, much less a uniquely American eating plan that is supposed to make us healthier.

no matter how old, other people have a right to access food when they are hungry whether "they should have eaten dinner" or not.

As for "she can eat her dinner", the dinner may not have what she needs or is craving at that given time. Add to that, the fact that growth spurts require more of these things than the rest of a persons life.

I don't agree that people who refuse, for example, four or five foods served to them (and since meals consist of a grain, a protein, fruits and veggies, plus bread, or maybe even a sauce, that's a lot to choose from), should be allowed to use hunger as a lever to get a preferred luxury food, so I guess I disagree with the first part. If a child doesn't eat dinner when we eat it, in principle she could eat it later. She has done that, in fact.

As for cravings, I guess we will cross that bridge when we come to it. So far, she has only ever craved sugar, LOL. When she wants something, she eats a lot of it when it's served. So then she doesn't have a craving for it later when it's not there. I do try hard to balance our meals.

[mistymama]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

She can eat her dinner!

But what if she's eaten her dinner and gets hungry again at bedtime? Would you let her eat again, or assume she just didn't eat enough when she was supposed to?

My son is 7 and seems to be going through a huge growth spurt - some days he is eating breakfast at 7am and another one at 9am - then like last night, he ate some dinner, but was hungry again right before bed. I made him a sandwich and sliced some apples.

I can't quite get the idea of sending your child to bed hungry or without food they ask for simply because they did not eat at the "correct" time. I know I don't always get hungry at the same time as my husband - often I'll sit with him while he eats dinner but not eat myself until an hour or two later.

I don't feel food should be a battle - and I think being overly controlling does just that. I trust that my child knows his body and will eat when he is hungry, and only what his body needs, not more. Obesity runs in my family and I certainly don't want to encourage anything other than him listening to his hunger cues and following them. No eating just because it's time, or because he wont get any later. No way.

I don't understand why it's a big deal to let your toddler have a few healthy snacks if she's hungry before bed. I'm pregnant right now and I can tell you, I need a snack before bed - dinner does NOT hold me over. I also don't tend to eat large amounts at any one sitting which I don't have time to link to research, but studies HAVE found that to be healthier for your metabolism than large meals without snacking.

[Drummer's Wife]

I think what people are imagining is a 3 yo who asks for something to eat a couple hours after dinner and is told: no, sorry, you should have ate more at dinner. You can eat again at breakfast.

That does seem harsh, to me, as a mother of a 3 yo. He often will eat his dinner (or eat a good portion of it) and then tell me his 'tummy is hungry' later on. He might eat a bowl of oatmeal and a piece of fruit at that point. From what I can tell, he's listening to his body - which is healthy. Sometimes he's not really hungry when dinner is ready, so he picks a it and drinks his milk. I don't see any point in having any kind of natural or imposed consequence and telling him an hour later that it's too bad he's now hungry, he should have ate when he had access to food (hungry or interested or not). Kids, especially little kids, don't really have to do that, yk? Not in a home where there is at least something available to offer them to eat.

[ivymae]

If they don't eat because they honestly don't like the food, after they've tried a bite I am willing to make them a quick sandwich, or let them choose from the leftovers in the fridge. I'll probably make this dinner again, and they will probably have to try a bite again, because more often then not, after it's one of the regular meals, they will magically start liking it.

If my kids don't eat dinner because they are playing the power struggle (I know they like it, they just want treats), I'll ask them to sit with us while we eat, and then closer to bedtime i will offer then cheese and apples, or something equally nutritious. Mine are 2 and 4, so they don't really connect missing dinner and then eating a snack later - they just know they throwing a fit at dinner didn't get them what they wanted, and (unrelatedly) they had a snack later because their bellies hurt. If they don't eat they are cranky mean kids, and that just sucks for everyone.

older kids are harder, but maybe just have opportunities after dinner for them to eat, without it being a big to-do. I used to make my dad's lunch with my mom each night, and would catch myself snacking on lunch meat and fruit while we stood in the kitchen and talked.

[a-sorta-fairytale]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

As for "she can eat her dinner", the dinner may not have what she needs or is craving at that given time. Add to that, the fact that growth spurts require more of these things than the rest of a persons life. I mean that to the extreme too. DD for the most part is not a huge eater, but when it comes time to grow she can (and occasionally will) eat more that DH and I combined without gaining an ounce!

Oh i so see the growth spurt thing in our house. DD(6) is much more picky then ds(2) and she is also a much lighter eater then he is. We usually serve him twice as much as we do her. But if she is hitting a growth spurt or has done a ton of physical training (this week she has volleyball camp and karate EVERY DAY - totaling 4-5 hours of heavy physical work each day) she will eat way more then i can at 9 months pregnant.

She normally doesnt eat much meat either but when she is growing (or like this week - with the camps) she will eat a ton more. She asked for steak monday and ribs yesterday. She ate more of each then dh who is 6ft4 and very muscled.
Neither was in the plan or budget but we try to listen to all of our bodies when it comes to specific nutrient cravings. It is hard for both me and dd to get enough protein so if we are craving meat or beans dh is very happy to oblige.

[peaceful_mama]

Originally Posted by A&A

Moreover, when I send my kids to bed hungry, and I have a houseful of food, it feels disrespectful to the universe and ungrateful for what I have. I think of mothers around the world who would kill for the food supplies I have. I say a silent prayer of thanks, set aside what else I was doing, and feed my kids.

Oh.....this just seriously made me tear up....(I'm 17 weeks pg, it doesn't take much ) I, too, will set aside whatever I am doing and feed my kids...

Like many on this thread (so far) I have a DH who buys quite a bit of junk and some frustration with them not eating meals and wanting that. (which they don't really do that often, but sometimes yes.)

I am going to start offering healthier ideas more often, rather than just denying the junk. (sometimes I do, other times I'm just ticked about them walking away from a table having barely eaten and whining for food 10 minutes later.)

Is it any different than me not really wanting whatever DH made but eating a little of it and then later, after he goes to work, making myself/us a snack or early dinner of my preferred food of the day? Um. no. (DH works odd hours, we eat lunch together usually as the family meal.)

If i have a right to do that, or my mom (who lives here too) has the right to make herself a bologna sandwich if she doesn't like our dinner...why can't my kid have some cheese and crackers, yogurt and berries, or a sandwich?
I think I could probably find a way to make it easier for them to serve themselves and help the oldest learn to make some things. That would help me a lot actually.

In answer to the original question, though, no, my kids don't go to bed hungry unless it's been their own choice not to eat. (I.E. they chose to eat little/no dinner--which is typically a fruit, veg, carb, and it's always something I'm pretty sure they'll eat--I make some of their favorites that aren't necessarily DH faves since he's not here, and they didn't want an alternative to eating a sweet dessert junk item or chip-type snack.) I *don't* hand out the Cheeto-junk after a refused meal.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

You could have snacks with the family. Everyday after school, during the school year DD, ds and I usually sit down and have a snack together. Big meals aren't the only time eating can be a social activity.

Snacking together is great, too. But I'm talking more about the problem being with individualized eating habits overall, rather than just the question of is it a meal or a snack, you know what I mean?

Many people have brought up in this thread that they have no or very little structure to eating and food in their house-- whenever anyone is hungry, they eat, and it doesn't have to be at breakfasttime, lunchtime, dinnertime, a pre-set snack time, etc. Now unless everyone in the house just happens to get hungry randomly at the same times, I don't see how this approach would be condusive to sitting down to regular family meals (or snacks) together.

But if some of yall have found a way to make it work and if everyone in the family is able to synchronize their grazing to some extent, then more power to ya. In my family, it doesn't seem to work that way when we're all in the habit of "grazing" rather than having scheduled meals. Instead, we tend to just grab something from the kitchen and go off on our own. That's why personally I'd like to get back to the more scheduled way of doing things and restore the family meal tradition at least to some extent in my own family.

[MusicianDad]

I don't really see how we can expect children to not have individualized eating habits. Every person is different.

We allow grazing all day. We also have 1 set snack time every week day and we sit down to a family meal 6 nights a week. It's not impossible to have that without controlling your child's food so much that they would go to bed hungry.

[greenmamapagan]

Guilty of not having read the whole thread but

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

That being said, my own kids, would not be able to survive off of three meals a day a two-three snacks. They just need more food than that.

ITA with this My four year old has her picky days, in fact she only ate a banana for dinner tonight but even on those she eats at least as much as you described. On her "hungry" days she eats an awful lot more. The last thing I would ever do is restrict protein snacks, she can have those whenever she likes!
As for going to bed hungry - see my banana comment. I'm sure she'll tell me if she's hungry but otherwise, that's it for dinner.

[greenmamapagan]

Working my way through the thread now

Originally Posted by ssh

The real issue isn't what foods you have access to. It's giving your DC control over when and what they eat, of what's available.

Originally Posted by prothyraia

Well of course!
But if she's hungry again two hours later, I don't think she should be limited to just bread. The same if she isn't hungry and doesn't eat much at dinner and then realizes later that wow, that chicken actually would be really awesome right now.

and as per my previous post about the banana, my four year old did admit to being a little hungry at bedtime so we grabbed her dinner which I'd left on the plate just in case and she ate a few bites before she went to sleep
If she'd asked for something else (waffles for example - we don't have a waffle iron either but she's seen waffles elsewhere & finds them fascinating) we would have negotiated about what was available and what I actually had the energy to prepare since I'm tired too & I'd already done all the dinner clean up apart from her plate, but she didn't.

[mamaofthree]

i am not getting why it is a big deal for them to ask for stuff you don't have. it's a bummer for sure to really want something like waffles and not get them, and yes a little 3 year old might cry, i mean i get bummed if i am really hungry for something and it isn't available... but i don't get what the issue is. if the food isn't there it isn't there. so you gently explain and explain again if you have too and offer something else... like if there is a pancake in the fridge that is left over or maybe some yummy toast with butter and honey or fruit spread.
and for those with dhs (or yourself for that matter) who have forbidden snack foods in the house... hide them! dh loves pringles... so he hides them in the closet. i have many many other things the kids can have to eat.

yes my own experiences as a child have lead me to make the food choices i have for my family. and honestly as much as it sucked eggs living thru i have to say it made me realize that food shouldn't be an issue. that i can't control other peoples hungry times and why would i want to?

h

[Drummer's Wife]

coffeegirl - we eat dinner together every night, and breakfast and lunch are almost always me and the kids (Dh works). Snacks - with four kids, they often do decide they are hungry at the same time (as in, DD will prepare something, and at least 1-2 of her little brothers wants something then, too) - so everyone grabbing their own thing and taking off doesn't occur. We have a big open kitchen (that is visible and connected to other areas to the house) and for the most part it's where food is consumed. No one grabs a snack and then heads up to their bedroom, for example. So, in my experience, you can allow independence in eating, and still have meals and snacks together.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

All you have to do is have some ready made snacks in a place where either they can access it themselves, or you can just put some on a plate and give it to them. DS has his own collection of safe, healthy, snacking food that is easily accessible to him. He's not even 2

I think you're missing what EdnaMarie is saying. She does have snacks, but those few times when her child went to bed hungry the almonds were gone, the chickpeas were gone, there was no option for waffles, and cake and ice cream were a no. The child had the option of bread. The same thing she probably eats multiple times a day and loves, but that particular day it was a power struggle because her child wanted cake and ice cream. So she chose to say no to the bread (a truly hungry child would have eaten the bread), and she went to bed hungry.

Hardly sounds like that's EdnaMarie's fault.

There are times in this house too where the snacks are gone. Just plain gone. And if a child turns up his nose at dinner and then also refuses the PB sandwich he/she would normally eat in place of dinner, then what else can you do? At that point Child is making the decision to be hungry. It is not being forced upon them.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

We have one meal for our whole family at each mealtime. In "addition", each meal is served with whole-grain, homemade bread. At breakfast, that's bread with butter. Bread is unlimited. The 3.5 yo gets milk at breakfast and lunch. They get a fruit snack once a day and a protein snack once a day, or a combo. They may have ketchup or yoghurt on their meal if they want, if they think it will make it better, but in moderation.

Now, the baby is still nursing more or less on demand so if she doesn't eat, I suffer at night.

But if the 3.5 doesn't eat, too bad. Sometimes, this results in her going to the park or to bed on an empty or near-empty stomach.

Is that like, super harsh? I mean, I cook a very varied diet, we have grains at each meal, they like them, and I cook their favorite foods (chickpeas, broccoli, whole-wheat spaghetti, rice, beans, baked potato "fries" with fried salmon) often enough so this only happens once or twice a week. We definitely have treats a couple times a week.

Now, I KNOW that the child may go somewhat hungry for up to three days. My feeling is, that if this child is otherwise typical, they WILL eat other foods when they are really hungry.

Is that like, really harsh?

This says if the 3 year old doesn't eat the meal, she goes to bed or to the park hungry. She gets two snacks a day, not she can have bread before bed or left over dinner. And it happens once or twice a week. Also the child may be somewhat hungry for up to three days.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by ssh

This says if the 3 year old doesn't eat the meal, she goes to bed or to the park hungry. She gets two snacks a day, not she can have bread before bed or left over dinner. And it happens once or twice a week. Also the child may be somewhat hungry for up to three days.

The child has unlimited access to bread at mealtimes. If she doesn't want what is served, she can have as much bread as she wants. So if she eats her bread, which she likes and eats every other day as much as is desired, then she won't be going to the park or to bed hungry.

But if she is pouting and protesting because she is demanding something not possible (like cake or ice cream or foods that are not in stock), then she's choosing for herself to be hungry.

I personally find this whole thread somewhat amazing and I'm one to let my kids snack all day, for the most part, so long as the foods are healthy. But seriously, SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE $$$ to allow this. Their kids are no worse for the wear if they are given only three well balanced meals a day. Almonds, fruits (well, I guess almonds are technically a fruit, too), cheese, veggies, yogurt, etc.... these things are expensive! Whether or not it's healthier to graze all day, I can guarantee that for some people it'll break the bank. You get a lot more bang for your buck when you serve meals, not snacks.

And I think of the children in other parts of the world who have rice for breakfast, rice for lunch and rice for dinner with maybe a banana, and who can't afford to be picky. Yet here we cater to our children's every food whim and desire at times.

Sorry, but if my kids don't want the meal they are served, and they don't want the PB sandwich I'm offering as a replacement, then they really aren't as hungry as they think they are. As for their body craving something else, well, if they'd eat their meals then the cravings would likely be satisfied.

[MusicianDad]

Sorry, but as much as I like bread, some days I just don't want to eat it.

As for $$$, yeah that can be an issue but that's what budgets are for. All you have to do to let you child snack is set aside some foods for that exact purpose. Heck even leftovers can (and often are in this house) snacks. That way you don't end up wasting food because you decided that you child can only have two snacks a day.

And no, if they eat their meal their cravings won't always be satisfied. If they need calcium, or protein, or vitamin C and all you are offering only has those in limited quantities their cravings won't be satisfied by eating what is offered. Not all food is the same.

And what happens if they just aren't hungry at dinner? Well they can have bread right? Sorry but the last thing you need to hold you over is carbs. You'll be hungry again in an hour.

As for the "they aren't as hungry as they think they are"? I hate that line. I truly, honestly do. Just because someone is hungry doesn't mean they will eat anything presented to them. Allergies, intolerance, of even just plain dislike are all reasons someone who is starving won't eat something presented. Besides, the line gives me the same shivers as over hearing a parent tell their child what they do and don't like based on no other information that the parents preferences.

[Honey693]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

As for the "they aren't as hungry as they think they are"? I hate that line. I truly, honestly do. Just because someone is hungry doesn't mean they will eat anything presented to them. Allergies, intolerance, of even just plain dislike are all reasons someone who is starving won't eat something presented. Besides, the line gives me the same shivers as over hearing a parent tell their child what they do and don't like based on no other information that the parents preferences.

I hate that line too. I will go days without eating before I touch certain things, like shrimp, brussel sprouts or scallops. Just the thought of them makes me feel sick.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Sorry, but as much as I like bread, some days I just don't want to eat it.

There are some days DH and I don't want chicken for dinner but that's the only meat in the house. There are some days I don't want to be eating this whole foods diet thing but I know it's healthier to do so. There are some days I'm sick and tired of salads but I'm a guest in a friend's home and guess what's on the menu? Salad.

You don't always get to eat what you want, when you want, even as an adult.

As for $$$, yeah that can be an issue but that's what budgets are for.

And some people have very tight budgets and the things I listed: almonds, yogurts, cheeses, crackers, veggies, fruits, dried fruits are TOO expensive to keep in stock. Esp when you have more than one or two children. Keeping snacks like that on hand AND coming up with meal plans is not always doable. So you stretch your buck and make good, hearty, well balanced MEALS that cost less in the end, and if kiddo's hungry later, hey, there's leftovers.

All you have to do to let you child snack is set aside some foods for that exact purpose.

And even then, there comes a time when the snacks run out and like EdnaMarie, the only option left is bread.

And no, if they eat their meal their cravings won't always be satisfied. If they need calcium, or protein, or vitamin C and all you are offering only has those in limited quantities their cravings won't be satisfied by eating what is offered.

If they eat a good, well balanced diet, through the course of one day or even a week, yes, their needs will be met. Obviously not if you're serving cereal for breakfast and pasta for lunch and rice for dinner. But a balanced diet, in which they get everything they need. Eating their meals then, will give them what they need. (Besides, I don't know about other people here but my kids' cravings are usually for junk. Muffins, pancakes, french toast, cereal, crackers, ice cream....I rarely get a kid craving green beans or spinach salads or black beans. Then again, they eat their meals so they're getting what they need, anyway.)

As for the "they aren't as hungry as they think they are"? I hate that line. I truly, honestly do. Just because someone is hungry doesn't mean they will eat anything presented to them.

I never said that a hungry child would eat anything given to them. I said it in conjunction with foods parents already know their kids love, not foods they might be allergic to or have intolerances to. My kids LOVE PB sandwiches. They'd eat them daily and for every meal, if they could. That's why, if they reject a meal, that's their other option. If they don't want that, then it's not so much that they are hungry, but they are ticked they aren't getting the pancakes or french toast they wanted.

And like I said, at that point it becomes their issue, not mine. The food is there.