Do Your Kids Ever Go to Bed Hungry? - Page 11

[Honey693]

Originally Posted by velochic

I tried to read the whole thread before replying, but that just ISN'T going to happen.

I have to say that am astounded at the number of people saying that if their kids don't want to eat a meal, they are welcome to eat pb&j or yogurt. I consider those to be EXTREMELY unhealthy foods and yogurt is considered a dessert here. Even the organic yogurts that dd eats are chock-full of sugar. If they're not organic, they are full of artificial colors, flavors and HFCS, too. Same goes for peanut butter. It's full of sugar and partially hydrogenated oils, again unless organic. Even my homemade jam has more sugar than I'm going to give her of an evening. No way in hell would I let her pass up a healthy meal for those alternatives. She would go to bed hungry if those were the only things she'd choose instead.

We buy organic plain yogurt with no added sugar (DD is free to dump in some unsweetened homemade applesauce or fresh fruit or spices) and our pb only has peanuts and salt so I don't see how those are unhealthy at all. I see those are completely healthy alternatives to a dinner she doesn't' want to eat.

Last night we had quesadillas and salsa for dinner. DD only wanted to eat the salsa and took maybe 2 bites of quesadilla. I told she was going to be hungry later, but she didn't care. An hour later she ate a huge bowl of yogurt and applesauce. I didn't care b/c she'd already had plenty of whole grains today and it doesn't matter to me if she gets dairy/protein in my having the cheese from dinner or yogurt an hour later. All I had to do was put the food in her bowl and she fed and cleaned up herself (she's only 20 months so there was no way I was going to let her spoon out her own yogurt).

[mistymama]

Velochic - I guess we are just assuming different things based on our personal experiences. There is no way my son would eat grilled chicken, beans and cooked veggies (and yes, he does have sensory issues that make him more sensitive to textures than most kids) but he WOULD eat raw veggies, fruit and maybe a grilled chicken sandwich (if the meat was shredded or sliced thinly).

And I think people here on MDC are more health aware than you are giving them credit for - JMO, of course. I make my own breads, jams, etc for the specific reason that I can make them taste good WITHOUT sugar - or with very, very little. We don't do yogurt or really much dairy at all aside from cheese - and I do agree it's not the healthiest option. But I do believe a homemade, sugar free pb&j sandwich with a side of carrots or sliced apples is a perfectly find substitute for a meal. All day, everyday? No, of course not. But as the occasional dinner in an overall day of eating a variety of foods - I think it's just fine.

Guess it's just a difference in experience and opinion!

[velochic]

Perhaps what I said could have been taken as a sweeping generalization, and I didn't mean that, however, hanging out in the Nutrition forum, I've seen far too many posts about processed and fast food to over-generalize in the other direction and assume that for all MDC members, "pb" = home ground peanuts only and "j" = sugarless homecanned jam (on homemade ww bread) and "yogurt" = homemade organic yogurt and unsweetened fruit. Even if it did mean that, such a limited diet to be the staples of a child's nutrition is still not healthy. And I'm not saying anyone has said that's *all* their child will eat.

[happysmileylady]

Originally Posted by velochic

I tried to read the whole thread before replying, but that just ISN'T going to happen.

I have to say that am astounded at the number of people saying that if their kids don't want to eat a meal, they are welcome to eat pb&j or yogurt. I consider those to be EXTREMELY unhealthy foods and yogurt is considered a dessert here. Even the organic yogurts that dd eats are chock-full of sugar. If they're not organic, they are full of artificial colors, flavors and HFCS, too. Same goes for peanut butter. It's full of sugar and partially hydrogenated oils, again unless organic. Even my homemade jam has more sugar than I'm going to give her of an evening. No way in hell would I let her pass up a healthy meal for those alternatives. She would go to bed hungry if those were the only things she'd choose instead.

Luckily, though, food has never been a struggle with her. She doesn't eat processed or fast food. Her taste buds are not accustomed to the high sugar, high fat, high salt, processed chemical taste (which I believe to be addictive) so eating real food *is* what she wants. Only in the US (and I've traveled and lived all over the world) have I seen parents cater to their children around food. Most of the world can't afford variety and processed crap and the rest don't have access to it. If all a kid will eat is chicken nuggets (or spaghetti-o's) or go hungry (and they don't have a special need), then it's the parents' fault.

Originally Posted by velochic

Great, if so. I'm getting the distinct impression that if a child is passing up something like grilled chicken, beans and vegetables that they are not going to opt for something like saltless/sugarless pb and sugarless jam, so I *am* making the assumption that a lot of what is being referred to is skippy and yoplait. Even in homemade, there is still more sugar than I would personally accept as an alternative to a healthy meal. I make my own pb, too, but it's still not a healthy alternative to a well-balanced meal, IME. Particularly not day-in and day-out. Likewise, we consume a lot of plain organic yogurt, but we drink it (we call it Ayran, but in Indian cuisine it's called salty lassi - yogurt, dash of salt, and water). The homemade yogurt we eat for a treat still has sugar in it from the homecanned jam that is mixed in. My point is that I don't consider even homemade yogurt and pb&j healthy alternatives to well-balanced hot meals (or cold meals) that include vegetables and other whole foods.

The thing is though, if that's what you consider junk, then that wouldn't be an option for your "healthy snack drawer/shelf." To me, it wasn't so much about WHAT else they ate, it was about having other options available. It wasn't as if I only provided yogurt and pb&j (and I am not going to try to attempt to justify what I consider healthy to someone else's standards) all the time and those were her only other options. Yeah, if she decided she didn't want fried chicken and green beans when I made that, she could make a pb&j, or a turkey sandwich, or an apple and a banana, or cheese cubes and the green beans or really whatever else I had available. Various things were available at various times, depending on what was on sale, on what I felt like buying that week at the store, on what we hadn't run out of yet.

It was about saying to her, here are all of your acceptable options in this house, here's what I have prepared, if you don't want what I prepared, you have other options. If NONE of those options are acceptable to you (the child), despite the variety available, well too bad, that becomes your problem.

[mistymama]

Originally Posted by happysmileylady

It was about saying to her, here are all of your acceptable options in this house, here's what I have prepared, if you don't want what I prepared, you have other options. If NONE of those options are acceptable to you (the child), despite the variety available, well too bad, that becomes your problem.

This is exactly what we do. You just said it much better than I could!

[puffingirl]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl

Consider this scenario: You have a 3-year old daughter. You sit down to dinner one night and your child decides that she doesn't want what you've prepared. She says she wants a bowl of cherries instead. But...you're out of cherries. There are none in the house. There are lots of things on the table, but she resists each one. You offer some alternatives (pb&j sandwich, any other fruit that you do have available in the fridge, basically any other food you have available period) and she says no to every one. Well, you can't force her to eat, right? Bedtime comes, and she's still refused to eat anything- meal or snack- all night. In addition to being tired, at this point she will probably be cranky and tantrum-y about it the food issue as well. This whole time you're still making it clear that there is other food available if she wants it. She only wants the cherries. (Before anyone says this kind of holding out is unrealistic-- it's not, I've seen it.)

So, how do you handle this? Do you go out to the all-night grocery store and buy some cherries for her? Or do you let her go to bed "hungry", so to speak?

In this case, my DD would be going to bed "hungry". Dinner at our house is take-it-or-leave-it. There is always something that everyone likes and I see it as her job to pick out which parts she wants and how much. If she doesn't want it, that's fine. There is always fresh fruit for snack before bed--she can have whatever fruit is in the house (except she has a 1 banana per day limit due to digestion issues). Last night she had about 3 bites of her salmon burger, ate her piece of GF bread and about 3 bites of sauteed spinach. She declared she was done and wanted other snacks (crackers, etc). We don't let her have those for dinner, but she ate a plum and a nectarine before bed and wasn't hungry when she went to bed--just full of fruit. But there is no way that I'd be heading to the store for anything in particular at that time just because she wanted that one thing. It can go on the list for the next time we go shopping.

[velochic]

ack! double-post!

[velochic]

happysmileylady - I wasn't talking about anyone in particular nor did I suggest that anyone need to justify "healthy" to others. I'm sorry if you took it that way.

[happysmileylady]

Originally Posted by velochic

happysmileylady - I wasn't talking about anyone in particular nor did I suggest that anyone need to justify "healthy" to others. I'm sorry if you took it that way.

Oh I know it was just that lots of people were responding with how they make their own jam or only buy the organic plain yogurt with no sugar added and so on, I just was trying to point out that that wasn't really the point. No worries

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by happysmileylady

It was about saying to her, here are all of your acceptable options in this house, here's what I have prepared, if you don't want what I prepared, you have other options. If NONE of those options are acceptable to you (the child), despite the variety available, well too bad, that becomes your problem.

The funny thing is I think this is what everyone here is saying ultimately (and this is how these food threads in GD often go), just that some people here may have budget constraints, or population issues that do not allow unlimited amounts of certain foods to be eaten in a given day, and other people had major control issues with food growing up and perhaps rile against any idea of any control whatsoever, but upon closer inspection, likely also would not allow their child to poison themselves with fruit for example or eat nothing but string cheese for three weeks.

[VisionaryMom]

I only make one meal. There are options in the fridge and cabinets for anyone who wants a snack. My biggest snacker is DS, who is 5. He's a super-skinny kid - high metabolism, constantly moving. People frequently comment on how much he eats because, yes, sometimes I think he's going to get sick from eating so much. He eats at meals, but he definitely does better with more frequent snacks rather than a huge meal.

I also will make some of the accommodations others have mentioned - not adding chicken in with the spaghetti sauce, for instance, because sometimes he prefers noodles w/Parmesan on top & chicken on the side rather than the whole thing together. I don't consider that a huge imposition.

I do sometimes want things no one else really enjoys, and so usually 1-2 times per month, we have a "smorgasbord" night when you can have leftovers or ask for something specific. DC often ask for quesadillas. I do usually give choices just because I need the ingredients on hand, but DS also will "create" his own dishes. That allows for some fun associated with family meals, which I think is important, too.

I'm in the group of people who always makes sure there's something everyone likes in the meal. DD has eaten entire meals of broccoli, and that's okay with me. I still work with DH on it because his mother has serious food issues and made it a major issue in their family. Her self-esteem was tied into how much everyone ate for meals. (I'm not kidding. She's still this way.) So, the end result was that the kids as small children were forced to eat everything. As older kids/teens, they were guilted into it because she would cry if people didn't like whatever dish she'd whipped up. She served a lot of foods that *no one* liked, but it doesn't seem to matter.

It's like when I go over, and she serves stuffed cabbage, which makes me gag. I do not like large cabbage leaves. She knows this, will comment on how we're having something I won't like, and still gets misty-eyed when I don't eat it. She's said how she thinks it's great that I cook things I don't love because DH or one of the kids loves it because she'd never do that. It's weird, weird, weird to me to be that way about food, so I try to be more reasonable.

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by velochic

I tried to read the whole thread before replying, but that just ISN'T going to happen.

I have to say that am astounded at the number of people saying that if their kids don't want to eat a meal, they are welcome to eat pb&j or yogurt. I consider those to be EXTREMELY unhealthy foods and yogurt is considered a dessert here. Even the organic yogurts that dd eats are chock-full of sugar. If they're not organic, they are full of artificial colors, flavors and HFCS, too. Same goes for peanut butter. It's full of sugar and partially hydrogenated oils, again unless organic. Even my homemade jam has more sugar than I'm going to give her of an evening. No way in hell would I let her pass up a healthy meal for those alternatives. She would go to bed hungry if those were the only things she'd choose instead.

Luckily, though, food has never been a struggle with her. She doesn't eat processed or fast food. Her taste buds are not accustomed to the high sugar, high fat, high salt, processed chemical taste (which I believe to be addictive) so eating real food *is* what she wants. Only in the US (and I've traveled and lived all over the world) have I seen parents cater to their children around food. Most of the world can't afford variety and processed crap and the rest don't have access to it. If all a kid will eat is chicken nuggets (or spaghetti-o's) or go hungry (and they don't have a special need), then it's the parents' fault.

I wasn't one that said my kids would eat a PBJ or yogurt instead of dinner - though, they certainly could if they wanted to - b/c my kids are more likely to eat additional foods/snacks after dinner - BUT, we buy Greek yogurt (plain) which has 9 grams of sugar. An apple has like 20 grams of sugar, so naturally occurring sugar doesn't bother me. We don't buy the fake, colored/flavored yogurt, and I assume the majority of people here don't, either. Same for peanut butter - ours is natural, and doesn't contain any hydrogenated oils or HFCS or sugar. It's basically ground up peanuts and a little bit of salt. Our jelly is also real jam - nothing fake at all in it and no added sugar.

Just had to clarify, that I think those who are talking about allowing these alternatives for a meal generally mean healthy, whole food versions.

ETA: sorry, didn't read past your post to see others addressed this and you already responded. sorry My kids, however, would gladly pick baked chicken over a cold sandwich, any day, but I do think as long as they are getting the protein and nutrients they need to grow (say, looking at a week of their diet at a time) then it doesn't really matter if they are eating what we would prefer they eat, yk? I don't have picky kids, but if I did, that would be my bottom line.

[Paeta16]

I definitely only make one meal, however, I know DD prefers raw veggies over steamed veggies so I'll leave some raw so that she can eat them that way. If she is hungry an hour after dinner then I let her choose a healthy snack b/f bed. My 3 y.o. seems to eat all.day.long and I honestly have zero problem with that as long as she eats a well-balanced diet. She is quite aware that if I say no, you can't eat that particular food right now, that I am not going to change my mind so she normally will choose one of the healthy options I've offered.

I think I am lucky, however, b/c a lot of my friends seem to have difficulties with their kids and food. I don't make food a battle ground but I do have healthy eating boundaries that she is quite aware of even at 3. If she chooses not to eat for whatever reason I trust her to know her own body better than I do.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl

See bolded quote above. If that's the case, then your family's eating habits and times are not as individualized as what I was talking about.

Just because you sit down with the rest of the family at a meal, doesn't mean you eat. It just means you are sitting down with your family while at least one person eats.

[prothyraia]

Originally Posted by velochic

Even the organic yogurts that dd eats are chock-full of sugar. If they're not organic, they are full of artificial colors, flavors and HFCS, too. Same goes for peanut butter. It's full of sugar and partially hydrogenated oils, again unless organic.

I know this has already been addressed, but our peanut/almond/other nut butters don't have any added sugar, and neither does our yogurt. Sometimes we add a bit of maple syrup to to the yogurt to sweeten it, if we want. It's not exactly hard to find this stuff, I mean, when we were on WIC they were able to bring us plain old unsweetened (but not organic) peanut butter.

I don't think the point for me is so much exactly *what* the snack or alternative is so much as that it's inappropriate to select one particular item and say 'this is all you can have right now, all the other food in the house is off limits'.

I guess I limit my control of my kids' diet to controlling what I bring into the house. They're never going to eat only chicken nuggets or mac and cheese because I'm never going to fill my fridge with those things. But once I have purchased a variety of healthy foods (and some few treats), then it's largely up to them what/when they eat, provided they sit down with us at dinner time and they don't expect me to do any extra work.

I'm not okay with micromanaging their food consumption; my husband and I already have completely control over what foods they have access to because we do all the grocery shopping and meal preperation. It feels really disrespectful to me to, on top of all that, tell them they can only eat x food and y time, regardless of when they're hungry or what they're hungry for, when it doesn't directly impact me in any way.

[Calm]

I wouldn't feed peanut butter to a child, organic or not, it is full of aflatoxins. (fungal byproducts)
http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/aflatoxin.php

Corn is also. Not coincidentally, they are two of the biggest allergens on the planet, as is dairy. Mycotoxins (fungal toxins) are the reason for allergies and modern chronic disease, and what I've seen in my clinic is evidence of this.

Dairy is another thing that has never passed my lips in three years since getting pregnant with DS, and he won't be getting any as long as I can help it, not even through my breast milk: The Case Against Dairy

I see most people find it shocking to have a child go to bed hungry, however, I think it is more shocking to feed them some of the stuff considered a viable food option here. My children would be better off hungry.

I perhaps have an advantage, being a naturopath I research for hours a day on subjects like food and health, however this advantage means I really struggle to offer my children drugs or toxins instead of dinner. How would any parent offer their child that, if they knew that's what it was? Would you feed your child a known cancer causing substance? Of course not - and I know peanuts contain a cancer causing substance. Now you do, too. Ignorance is bliss, but only for us, not for the kids.

Casein (in dairy) has been repeatedly shown to be the trigger for chronic disease and cancer when aflatoxin is consumed. Casein is not in human milk - and that is because cow milk is for calves, not humans. No mammal imbibes milk past weaning age, except humans.

I believe all parents are doing the best they can with the info and finances they have, however the food industries have really messed with their ability to choose well, spreading outright lies or suppressing food truths. And it is the children who suffer - esp with the most sickening lie of all: that children should have lots of dairy!

Hybrid foods are weak, and more subject to fungal attack. You can prove it to yourself by putting a hybrid fruit such as citrus next to a wild or heirloom citrus on the grass and see the hybrid one get attacked and rot much faster. Corn is a hybrid food, it won't grow without massive human support; it won't grow wild, and it is a fungal mess. Fruits without seeds are hybrids, and much higher in sugars and altered, I'd avoid them where possible, such as the new craze for seedless watermelon.

[Calm]

Not that that is totally on topic, forgive me for that. But I do think it is relevant to mention what we are accepting as viable alternatives, because the link between them wanting it and the addictive/palatte corrupting nature of the food is stronger than most think, therefore we could be approaching the problem from the wrong angle.

There are degrees, of course, and what is junk to one person is a healthy meal to another - a vegan will probably think feeding a child a chicken breast is a bad choice but to the omnivorous mama, she believes she is doing the best thing when she can afford good organic chicken.

So it possibly it isn't about one's food beliefs or path, but about toxins - that is a different matter. If a food is a serious health hazard, should we be offering it as a meal alternative? Could they be choosing such things because of the toxic addiction already building in their youth? Personally, I found breaking the connection to processed food and increasing the connection to earth changed things. My daughter holds a processed food in her hand, like chips, and asks "would I find this in nature?" and then holds a paw paw and asks the same question.

Kids make these crappy choices because they can, they are in a culture of afluence, even those stricken by poverty in our cultures are still better off than a huge percentage of the rest of the world. If they grew up in Japan, they'd eat raw fish and seaweed; in India they'd eat hot curries and like it... food aversions are a choice, a psychological one, but still a choice. If they were thrown into a tribe in the jungle, they'd manage to eat cassava and greens and berries and probably thrive. If they don't like what you've prepared and can have whatever they like instead, then only have what you'd want them to eat on offer. Have only things that resemble natural food in the cupboard and fridge, and you'll find your dinner suddenly looks like a treat.

I've made things my daughter doesn't want - quite a lot - so I say go find something else, knowing there are only veggies in the fridge... and I turn around and she's nibbling on a whole cabbage, leaf by leaf and really enjoying herself. So I guess she REALLY didn't want what I made.

[happysmileylady]

Originally Posted by Calm

Not that that is totally on topic, forgive me for that. But I do think it is relevant to mention what we are accepting as viable alternatives, because the link between them wanting it and the addictive/palatte corrupting nature of the food is stronger than most think, therefore we could be approaching the problem from the wrong angle.

There are degrees, of course, and what is junk to one person is a healthy meal to another - a vegan will probably think feeding a child a chicken breast is a bad choice but to the omnivorous mama, she believes she is doing the best thing when she can afford good organic chicken.

So it possibly it isn't about one's food beliefs or path, but about toxins - that is a different matter. If a food is a serious health hazard, should we be offering it as a meal alternative? Could they be choosing such things because of the toxic addiction already building in their youth? Personally, I found breaking the connection to processed food and increasing the connection to earth changed things. My daughter holds a processed food in her hand, like chips, and asks "would I find this in nature?" and then holds a paw paw and asks the same question.

Kids make these crappy choices because they can, they are in a culture of afluence, even those stricken by poverty in our cultures are still better off than a huge percentage of the rest of the world. If they grew up in Japan, they'd eat raw fish and seaweed; in India they'd eat hot curries and like it... food aversions are a choice, a psychological one, but still a choice. If they were thrown into a tribe in the jungle, they'd manage to eat cassava and greens and berries and probably thrive. If they don't like what you've prepared and can have whatever they like instead, then only have what you'd want them to eat on offer. Have only things that resemble natural food in the cupboard and fridge, and you'll find your dinner suddenly looks like a treat.

I've made things my daughter doesn't want - quite a lot - so I say go find something else, knowing there are only veggies in the fridge... and I turn around and she's nibbling on a whole cabbage, leaf by leaf and really enjoying herself. So I guess she REALLY didn't want what I made.

But the thing is, none of us are talking about opening up a halloween candy stash as a viable alterative. No one is talking about popping open a bag of potato chips or Doritos or Cheetos as the alternative. No one is talking about handing a kid a twinkie and a can of coke as a viable alternative. We are talking about alternatives being cheese cubes and yogurt and peaches and apples and stuff like that being the alternatives. And yet some folks feel the need to impose upon everyone their beliefs about how they would NEVER feed their child something so awful as what is being suggested. As if the HFCS in the 2 slices of white bread in a PB&J sandwich is as toxic for the child as eating lead or something. As if the amount of salt in the tablespoon of peanut butter is as bad as giving the kid a can of coke. Yes, every food has degrees of nutrition. And there are absolutely things that obviously junk food. And if you (general) are gluten free and peanut free and dairy free and sugar free and whatever else free and don't consider those things healthy for your family, then thats fine. Neither of my two kids are overweight, my teen does not have high blood pressure or diabetes or anything else that unhealthy eating habits lead to so I am going to continue to feed my family according to what I have learned about health and nutrition. If you (general) have learned something different, then that's fine for you, and neither of us are offering alternatives that we both learned are total junk, like Twinkies, so it's all good.

I believe that teaching my child that others aren't going to go out of their way to make sure her wants and desires are satisfied all the time is more important than whether or not the alternatives I offer for her to get herself meet someone else's standards of the most nutritious foods.

I think it's kinda funny that so many others need to justify the choice of yogurt or pb&j by saying that they bake their own organic whole wheat bread and only buy plain yogurt with no extra sugar added etc etc.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Just because you sit down with the rest of the family at a meal, doesn't mean you eat. It just means you are sitting down with your family while at least one person eats.

Ah, ok. Then yeah, we define having a family meal together differently lol.

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Since it's late, this is all I'm responding too tonight at least. But if you read back through the thread you will see that there are people in this thread, including the OP who think it is perfectly fine for a child to go to bed hungry if don't want what is served for dinner. And yes, I do have a problem with the idea that a child, who is in a home with food in the cupboard would go to bed hungry at all.

Except what if they refused to eat anything in the cupboard?

[velochic]

Originally Posted by happysmileylady

I think it's kinda funny that so many others need to justify the choice of yogurt or pb&j by saying that they bake their own organic whole wheat bread and only buy plain yogurt with no extra sugar added etc etc.

Nobody needed to, but some offered to. And I think that's good because there *are* people who think that Skippy and Smuckers is a healthy alternative to meat, veg, and grain. Explaining what PB&J means in a whole foods, all-natural, mostly or all organic family is helpful to all - reinforcing to those who do so as well, and informational to those who don't. It might make one person pause to think that maybe going to bed hungry *is* the healthy alternative.