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Do Your Kids Ever Go to Bed Hungry? - Page 14

post #261 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolagirl View Post
I think what some of us here on this thread are trying to point out is that sometimes kids (especially those who are hitting pre-adolescence) will engage in power struggles with their parents simply for the sake of having a power struggle. I don't actually think the whole confrontation I had my with my kids as explained above had anything to do with food at all, they wanted to see how hard they could push me in order to get me to cave in to their demands. That's the whole point, while one's child may dig in her heels and throw a fit over food, that fit is actually about testing their parent's boundaries. I think this even more likely to be true of more high spirited, high energy kids like mine, even if you do everything right and are as GD as one can be our kids may still engage in boundary testing from time to time.

I simply chimed in here because the whole side discussion about the cherry scenario was being discounted as a strawman. I'm pointing that it isn't that easy.

Well that would explain why those people whose children can eat when and what they want have no behavior over food. You can't have a power struggle with someone who's saying yes. We also don't have much "digging in her heals about something to test a boundary" because our boundaries involve avoiding danger and treating each other with respect. Our rules for our DDs behavior are family rules that we follow also. Maybe seeing the adults following the same rule makes it less tempting to test. I'm not saying that my 4.5 year old doesn't have her rude moments but a calm reminder of the polite behavior doesn't make her "dig her heals in".
post #262 of 303
My oldest is 9, and I definitely have many a power struggle with that girl. However, none of it involves food - and she does like to eat, and sweets/junk at that! We can go rounds over all sorts of other things (even silly things, that make me ) but eating is not one of them. It's just food...what she needs for her growing body (apparently a lot as she is about to start puberty and has had several growth spurts recently). If she wants to open a can of tuna at 11 pm after she's already had dinner and two other snacks, who am I to say no?
post #263 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Well that would explain why those people whose children can eat when and what they want have no behavior over food. You can't have a power struggle with someone who's saying yes. We also don't have much "digging in her heals about something to test a boundary" because our boundaries involve avoiding danger and treating each other with respect. Our rules for our DDs behavior are family rules that we follow also. Maybe seeing the adults following the same rule makes it less tempting to test. I'm not saying that my 4.5 year old doesn't have her rude moments but a calm reminder of the polite behavior doesn't make her "dig her heals in".
I don't know if this is always true. There's a child in my family who doesn't have any restrictions on when/what he can eat (beyond eating limitless sweets), but he's the one I was thinking of when I posted the cherry example earlier. Sometimes they're still gonna engage in the same power struggles.
post #264 of 303
After reading my reply about not buying ice cream regularly and something velochic said way upthread, I feel like I should mention that my family doesn't eat 100% healthy all the time. No way. We aren't super strict regarding nutrition, except that I am careful about what I grocery shop for. We eat out 1-2 times a week, on average, and my kids are free to order whatever they want - including soda. Sometimes it's a local restaurant that cooks from scratch, sometimes it's a chain restaurant, often it's a fast food joint. My kids can also eat as much birthday cake as they want at parties, and when we travel I might even take them inside the gas station to pick out junk for the road trip. We order pizza more than the average public - so surely much more frequently than your average MDC family.

I guess my point is that my kids aren't deprived of junk food - and our diet it no where near perfect. But we don't have power struggles over food. When we eat out or unhealthy - it's a choice we are making as a family. The kids don't refuse to eat my roasted chicken at home whining for McDonald's, or anything. They know when we go it's like a special treat - as frequent as it may be compared to many people here who go out to eat once a month or once a year and avoid fast food like the plague. I'm not saying I'm proud of allowing them to have sugar or crappy hamburger meat at times (it's something we need to work on), but that by not including this stuff as a staple in our home, there is no battle at mealtimes or snack times. If they want something to eat, they are welcome to it.
post #265 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeegirl View Post
I don't know if this is always true. There's a child in my family who doesn't have any restrictions on when/what he can eat (beyond eating limitless sweets), but he's the one I was thinking of when I posted the cherry example earlier. Sometimes they're still gonna engage in the same power struggles.
You can't have a power struggle or even a conflict if one side is saying yes. It takes opposition on at least two sides for a power struggle.
post #266 of 303
I don't know that there are a lot of kids that would throw a fit or refuse to eat something besides cherries that are not available. At least my kids wouldn't. They probably know I have a hard enough time getting DH to go out and get Krispy Kreme when I'm pregnant , so demanding something from the store late at night wouldn't even be on their radar.

I guess it totally depends on the kid, though.
post #267 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post
I don't know that there are a lot of kids that would throw a fit or refuse to eat something besides cherries that are not available. At least my kids wouldn't. They probably know I have a hard enough time getting DH to go out and get Krispy Kreme when I'm pregnant , so demanding something from the store late at night wouldn't even be on their radar.

I guess it totally depends on the kid, though.
I didn't mean we make special trips to the store when my DD wants something. "We don't have any right now." has always satisfied her. Pregnant people or sick people needing special food are the only 'real life' times I've known people to make special trips for food.
post #268 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
I didn't mean we make special trips to the store when my DD wants something. "We don't have any right now." has always satisfied her. Pregnant people or sick people needing special food are the only 'real life' times I've known people to make special trips for food.

oh, I know. Same here. that's why I have a hard time imagining a power struggle over cherries that don't exist just because food is not something that is controlled in your home.
post #269 of 303
I think I'd probably say something like "I wish we had cherries too. I love cherries." And disengage and let her get what she wanted to eat that we actually had in the house. I wouldn't get into a fight with her about it.
post #270 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A View Post
I'm not sure why you'd consider food a "want" or "desire." It's a need.
Food is a need-wanting tacos over pizza, apples, yogurt, cheese cubes, ham sandwich or whatever else we have available is a want or desire. I provide plenty of food to fulfill the need of food in the belly. Their wants and desires determine which of those foods they eat.
post #271 of 303
I'll tell you what, I never had a peep from my son about food (we were the eat when we're hungry kind of people ourselves and had a balance of junk and healthy foods to pick from) until we went to visit his cousins and he witnessed three girls who were allowed to choose what to eat including the choice of having a jam sandwich (on white bread crusts cut off only acceptable if cut into triangles) instead of what the family was eating. Often they had plain white pasta for dinner and nothing else. Suddenly he was like "Wait, you mean you can order off the menu?"

His cousins get to eat what they want pretty much when they want, and they are the pickiest eaters I have ever met in my life. Apart from the ocassional piece of fruit, they eat utter crap when they are left to choose for themselves.

We spent 6 months living with them during a family crisis. My son is only now, two years later, going back to normal where he desires real food.

These girls have been catered to so much of their lives that they routinely make wild demands for food choices, and will refuse to eat dinner if not given chocolate RIGHT NOW. They have even been known to simply go and get it from the candy stash, by the bag full, and chow down then obviously feel too full for dinner and get sent to bed where they bounce off the walls for an hour before crashing. It's mind boggling that they keep the junk in the house right? But they feel if you never limit or forbid certain food there will never be an unhealthy obsession with it...no limits is not ALWAYS a recipe for easy going kids when it comes to food. That's all I'm saying. It may be working for you, but chances are that's just luck, because clearly it doesn't work for everyone, and we should all probably trust ourselves that we know best for our own kids.

Year two away from the cousins and Benjamin is FINALLY starting to be reasonable about choices in the house and not having temper tantrums about "needing" cookies, right now, but food is very much an issue for us, because I do think it is DANGEROUS to feed a child unhealthy foods...can of tuna? awesome! Whole wheat bread? cool. Crisps and ice cream and candy? Not so much. So I set those limits, and I think most of us here would too, but because a lot of parents DO allow those things, and my kid sees it happening in their homes, we get the "It's not FAAAAIIIIIR." routine.

ETA: FWIW we don't limit food in our house or even refuse to take the chicken out before we add the sauce, or any number of ways we cater to the boy, apart from no treats for dinner, and not so much fruit you're going to be sick.

I'd say count your lucky stars it hasn't happened to you, rather than assume it has anything to do with how we handle food in our house.
post #272 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
I think I'd probably say something like "I wish we had cherries too. I love cherries." And disengage and let her get what she wanted to eat that we actually had in the house. I wouldn't get into a fight with her about it.
I've done that...he sems to be catching on to my tactics though. Yesterday when he was super sad about not having anymore bananas, he said "grrrrr...don't patronize me, mommy!"
post #273 of 303
My oldest is still pretty young (2 1/2),but we haven't dealt with any food issues. We are a very plain eating family and he pretty much eats what I cook. He doesn't like chicken to be mixed with bbq sauce or spaghetti sauce so if I do chicken Parmesan or something I just bake him a piece of plain chicken and give him some mashed potatoes and another side. To me that isn't going out of my way if I am baking chicken already. I don't think he goes to bed hungry. We eat breakfast,lunch,and supper with no set time really. He will snack during the day too. When he was younger and didn't want to eat right away. I would sit him in his chair while I or we ate and when he wanted something he would point or sign more. I never really made it an issue,but like I said he pretty much came out wanting to eat haha If we are at someone's house and there is so much going on(lots of kids over) I ask him if he is hungry and if he says no I don't fuss or anything I tell him okay come to me when you are hungry and he does. Once he tells me he is hungry, he has to eat something. I know at his age when he is around other kids food is the last thing on his mind. When I was pregnant with the second one and I ate a lot more than he did, I would eat and if he wasn't hungry yet I told him to come sign more when he was and he did every time.

I don't do 2 different meals. The only thing he doesn't eat that we do is the chicken with some sort of sauce. If we have pork chops,he eats those and so forth. I'm a big bread eater. We have it mostly every meal. I don't think it is harsh that your child goes to bed sometimes hungry if they refuse to eat anything. We had to eat our meal before a snack and my Mother didn't do special things either. She tried to incorporate what we liked in the meal,but there was at least something we could find we liked in each meal. Daniel doesn't get just fruit or veggies in place of a meal,but can have it as a snack after he eats his meal.

Didn't read all the pages,but it's funny to see all the responses.
post #274 of 303
My brother's girls are very picky. They live off of junk food and coke. The Grandparents didn't help with that either! I don't mind my child eating a Little Debbie cake or some candy,but it is after a meal is eaten and it is not every day. Coke is never in a sippy cup,he drinks water with some flavored stuff in it. He can have a sip of my husband's coke if he wants,but none of his own.
post #275 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by hakeber
Have you not seen a problem with fruit overdosing in your house?
No, but I could imagine it happening. If a child eats nothing but fruit, they're going to get upset tummy. If they eat nothing but cheese, same thing. Nothing but bread... same again. It's about balance. Kids need fats, greens (chlorophyll and protein) and sugars. Not enough of any one of that triad and there will be imbalance... it isn't so much that it's "too much" of one as not enough of the others to balance it out.

If my kids did OD on fruit, I'd bring in some soaked nuts, or some coconut and olives (fats), which they love, and make sure they got some greens (they will eat greens wrapped around things, like a burrito). ETA - I don't mean I wrap greens around a burrito.

Quote:
If kids don't need as much protein as that, why do you think he was craving chicken?
I've seen kids crave bread and coke, too, but I don't think it is as easy to identify the bodily need as looking at what they want. For instance, I had pica during both pregnancies - I craved dirt, and I drooled over dirt covered potatoes and could have rammed fistfuls of soil into my mouth when visiting a plant nursery - I loved the smell so much. But I knew it wasn't dirt I was craving but something IN the dirt, I was mineral deficient.

We need to stop looking at protein as "protein" and instead see it as "amino acids" ... all the secrets of protein cravings are revealed when we understand protein.

We cannot assume his bodily need is "chicken" or "protein" any more than we can assume mine was "dirt". You have a sign... a sign of what is the question.

I also know of icecream cravings, pickle cravings... you name it and there is an unhealthy craving that is an unidentified deficiency. I cured my pica by remineralising with quality food minerals. It helps to identify the lacking nutrient. We also know if the nutrient need is not being met by indulging it because our craving doesn't stop... it continues, to the detriment of other nutrients, causing a loop.
Quote:
I'm not entirely sure I buy into the less protein thing myself. For one, my own anecdotal experience tells me that I will get very, very ill-- think dizziness, fainting and vomiting-- if I don't eat protein every few hours. I have been like this my entire life. My own family was vegetarian my entire childhood, but they weren't concerned when I ate lots of dairy, cheese, beans, and nuts. They just let me do my thing. When I tried to not eat like that, eating more fruit and ignoring protein, is when I started to get sick.
I didn't mean to imply "ignore protein". My concern is the fixation on it, and the overconsumption of it. This has been shown to be a major issue in your country (generalising, I realise not all are from America), you eat way too much protein and it starts by using it as a mainstay in childhood meals, the old "meat and three veg" dinners most of us were reared on.

Have you tried eating, pound for pound, the same amount of greens with fats, like olives or green coconuts and covered in flaxseed oil, as you would eat "protein"? It would be a VERY big bowl of salad if you did, and more than enough protein... we under-eat greens, in a serious way, and mistake our amino acid needs as "meat" needs. Perhaps try to identify which amino acid you are quickly deficient in, and eat foods that are high in that.

The planet is covered in what we need... GREEN. Regardless how much meat a person eats, if they're not eating leaves as the dominant food, like a gorilla, as well as fruit, they won't come anywhere near the brilliant pristine state they were designed to.
Quote:
Further, think about the term "hunter/gatherers."
A human being came up with that term. And it FAR from convinces me, as I have looked at the evidence, I really really want to be convinced but it really is lacking, and not just due to the "missing link". Plus it has been disproved by the finding of other human bones, plus it is a guess, like most science that dates back far enough. This is too big a topic, however, if you think about it long enough it becomes clear... when we were first put here, be it by evolution, a creator or whatever the belief, - we had no tools. What we ate before fire and tools was not animals, because we had no way to eat them. We had nothing to hunt with. Before fire, we did not eat raw meat and this is evidenced by the almost universal human disgust at the thought of eating raw meat. None of us thinks "oooh, yummy!" a the sight of road kill yet all omnivores or carnivores do. Plus our physiology and anatomy are not designed to rip apart a body and digest it, we have a herbivores digestive juices and acids, a herbivores teeth... the list is massive... we are nothing like a carnivore except that we eat meat.

But just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

Fire and tools made that possible - our design however, was not cut out for those changes to our diet. We have only been agricultural for a few thousand years.

Yes, we need protein... but so does a gorilla, so does an elephant...the biggest strongest animals on earth do not eat meat... it is a fallacy that complex (or "complete) protein is necessary to create strong healthy people... on the contrary, it has created weak and chronically ill people who needed to create antibiotics to survive.

I am at risk of getting dragged into a meat vs veg debate here, when my point is to decrease the focus on "protein" and refocus on easily assimilated amino acids, taxing their little systems less.

No doubt some kids are drawn to chicken, aside from the taste which is not to be underestimated, they probably lack particular amino acids. Supplements of tryptophan, leucine and many other amino acids are a huge cash cow in the health industry even though most people eat meat. That is partially because amino acids (protein) are altered and destroyed by cooking.
post #276 of 303
Quote:
Suddenly he was like "Wait, you mean you can order off the menu?"
True. I told my daughter that candies in the store were "toys" (they look like toys to the very young) and never EVER gave her any... so of course she never asked for any, she didn't know what candy was. Dry fruit was her "candy" until she was 4. When she had her first easter with sugary foods, she puked after a few pieces, her system was just not used to it. That negative experience kept her self regulating for another six months or so, and then she slowly started to take in more "junk" and wasn't sick doing it (our systems adjust, they are no longer "pure" and "sensitive").

So I agree it is what they are exposed to, they can't choose an option that they don't know exists. That includes the option to decline dinner in exchange for a jam sanga. I never ate anything other than what was put in front of me and when I think back, it was because I never thought to ask.

I reminds me of a group of orphans I recently read about who aren't vaccinated, never exposed to meat or candy or anything other than fruit and vegetables and studies on these exceptional kids has shown some interestng things, such as they gag at the smell of cooking meat (like many pregnant women do... worth thinking about) and they never get sick nor do they have food issues or struggles. There aren't many "groups" of kids like this to study so it was interesting, usually we can only study isolated cases, which are easy to dismiss as something coincidental or extraodinary... but with these kids, it isn't as easy to dismiss. They want good food because it is all they've ever known.
post #277 of 303
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Dry fruit was her "candy" until she was 4
I love how your "location" is the illusion, LOL. Where I lived, people would come up on the street and give my daughter candy as a baby. Literally as a baby, people gave her ice cream, chocolate and candy. It was a cultural thing and EXTREMELY offensive to refuse it. Until one year, I told them "no, doctor's orders" but after that it became more and more difficult as we have a big family and people would share. Allergies are uncommon there. Long story short, kids there love meat though they don't get much of it, and my children have long known what sweets are beyond fruit.

Quote:
You can't have a power struggle or even a conflict if one side is saying yes. It takes opposition on at least two sides for a power struggle.
Shh, meet my daughter. She will actually pretend you refused and continue to pretend to fight. Or, if you say yes, she will demand more, more, more, more desperately seeking that limit, that "no".

Quote:
"I never ate anything other than what was put in front of me and when I think back, it was because I never thought to ask."
There are certain kinds of people who do that. Then there are other kinds of people who ask about alternatives even if you offer them a million dollars. That kind of person includes my daughter and husband, LOL. I swear, if you give that kid a banana split, she'll ask for an extra cherry. Beef stroganoff needs more creamy sauce. Salad needs more walnuts, fewer tomatoes. With the husband, he ALWAYS, without fail, asks what happened to lunch. Like we didn't eat it. He wants the leftovers with dinner. Just because if the table is perfect, he MUST find something to ask about.

Now, I do say "no" right away, and this generally stops the discussion because they know that I'm serious. However, if I were to acquiesce, OMG.

Maybe my family is just insane, so I have to be a food / sleep nazi or something. I cannot imagine the free time I'd have if I didn't have two people negotiating every single freaking thing. And "yes" doesn't cut it with them: they like the negotiation IN AND OF ITSELF, so that only leads to further demands.

I think a lot of people are like that, actually, which is why some houses do have children eating insane diets (as mentioned above) or going to bed hungry once in awhile. Do not assume that kids will "just" accept anything. Some people aren't like that.
post #278 of 303
OFF TOPIC:

Edna-Marie, your husband and daughter would do really well living in much of south east asia. I recall going to the market for the first time in Ho Chi Minh City and asking the price of something and when I would say no and walk away they would chase me down the alley, shouting other prices, and if I would say yes they would look confused, and become extremely suspicious. I once had a guy start arguing with me as if I HAD said no.

We also had an early introduction to sweets through well meaning neighbors (we lived in Argentina where our friends used to joke that they gave babies dulce de leche IVs in the NICU). I managed to keep most of it at bay by carrying him in a sling/mei-tai the first two years, but his first play-school halloween party I had made whole wheat vegan pumpkin cookies and sent a bottle of fresh orange juice (both of which were returned to me un-eaten) and collected a child who was quite literally in sugar shock. He was stood in the corner with eyes like saucers while the other kids ran circles all around him...this at the age of 20 months. I was like drop and everyone else was like, haven't you ever let your kid out of the house?

There are a lot of factors at play and a big one is personality.
post #279 of 303
Off Topic...

Calm,

I am big fan of vegan food. The less animal protein I eat the better *I* feel. But that just isn't true for everyone, I have to think that this DOES have a lot to do with evolution and where your "people" came from. DH and his family are viking decendants. They evolved with little to no fresh vegetables or greens around them and adapted to get getting their protein from animals. My family are descendants of lower Europe, and having a longer though not all year harvest season were likely more omnivorous.

As for having tools, I am not sure I agree, primates like Chimps (our closest DNA relative and also omnivorous) have tools, heck even sea otters use tools to get what they need for nutrition. Tools are not unique to homo-erectus, so I find it unlikely that early man did not have tools with which to forage, and indeed hunt. Not being able to hibernate and having migrated FAR FAR from the eternal green of the rainforest and the grasslands, man adapated, and they were equipped to do so.

FWIW, with DS I gagged at the smell of flesh, my meat eating husband even had to sleep in another room because I could smell the meat in his skin. However with baby number two I wanted to bathe in gravy and would have died for a room full of meat scented candles. I tried every amino combination I could try and yet I would wake in the night with uncontrollable urges for steak or chicken.

I think our biological make up is far from so simplistic that we can say ALL humans are better off not eating animal proteins.

I am. I know that. DS is slowly starting to gravitate towards vegetarian fare, but DH? I don't know if that's true. And DD...I have my doubts about her. The truth is we didn't stop evolving a million years ago. We are still evolving everyday (if you believe in that sort of thing this must be true, no?), and as a result we are still adapating, some faster than others.

I will try the seeds and nuts...any ideas where I can read about alternative sources for amino accids found in meat? I certainly would like to know for myself at least.
post #280 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm View Post
No, but I could imagine it happening. If a child eats nothing but fruit, they're going to get upset tummy. If they eat nothing but cheese, same thing. Nothing but bread... same again. It's about balance. Kids need fats, greens (chlorophyll and protein) and sugars. Not enough of any one of that triad and there will be imbalance... it isn't so much that it's "too much" of one as not enough of the others to balance it out.

If my kids did OD on fruit, I'd bring in some soaked nuts, or some coconut and olives (fats), which they love, and make sure they got some greens (they will eat greens wrapped around things, like a burrito). ETA - I don't mean I wrap greens around a burrito.
So what do you do if they refuse the seeds and nuts and ask for more fruit? I agree it's balance, but if your kid refuses to accept your options to help them balance, what would you suggest?
Quote:
I've seen kids crave bread and coke, too, but I don't think it is as easy to identify the bodily need as looking at what they want. For instance, I had pica during both pregnancies - I craved dirt, and I drooled over dirt covered potatoes and could have rammed fistfuls of soil into my mouth when visiting a plant nursery - I loved the smell so much. But I knew it wasn't dirt I was craving but something IN the dirt, I was mineral deficient.

We need to stop looking at protein as "protein" and instead see it as "amino acids" ... all the secrets of protein cravings are revealed when we understand protein.

We cannot assume his bodily need is "chicken" or "protein" any more than we can assume mine was "dirt". You have a sign... a sign of what is the question.

I also know of icecream cravings, pickle cravings... you name it and there is an unhealthy craving that is an unidentified deficiency. I cured my pica by remineralising with quality food minerals. It helps to identify the lacking nutrient. We also know if the nutrient need is not being met by indulging it because our craving doesn't stop... it continues, to the detriment of other nutrients, causing a loop.
That does make sense. It is essentially easier to get him to eat three bites of chicken than it is to get him to eat a bowl of leafy greens with flaxseed oil, but that's pretty lazy on my part. Any tips? Recipes? Links? I am eager to learn.
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