Talk me out of spanking!!

[kdescalzi]

I mamas,

First off, I do not believe in spanking. I am simply at my wits end and have no other place to turn. Ds is 3.5yrs and is an absolute monster....actually he is sweet and perfect one moment and hitting and yelling the next. I don't know how to control him. He does not listen to me regarding anything I ask whether it is to pick up a toy or stop hurting his sister. I get down on his level and ask him firmly to stop doing X and he will just say no and give me a little tap...not full out hitting but just enough that it is not appropriate. He just wants to defy me in everything...everyday is a battle. Sometimes I just cry because I have given everything I have to make him feel loved and attached and he is just so mean to me. He seems so angry and loves to role play angry themes. This has only started since his sister was born so of course I understand where he is coming from. Regardless, he has to learn that some behaviour is unacceptable and there are consequences for acting out. Nothing works except when I freak out and he starts to cry. Please tell me what to do!

[MusicianDad]

It might help if you set aside a specific "mommy and son" time. When his sister is napping or when your DH/SO can watch her. And by specific time I mean the same time everyday so he knows to expect it. I know that can be difficult, but since this started when his sister was born he is probably feeling like he can only get mom's attention by acting out this way. It's not something that changes over night though, you are going to have work with him.

Also if you haven't all ready, try enlisting him to help with his sister so he can feel part of the process more. It doesn't have to be anything big, just little things like getting diapers when she needs a change, or helping to put her down for a nap or bedtime.

And if you need the reminder (because sometimes we forget when we're frustrated): When he's acting out like this, spanking him will only teach him that if he's bigger than someone he can hurt them to make them do what he wants.

[NellieKatz]

I don't have time to go in depth at the moment, but it may not matter because my point is brief. This sentence right here is the thing that's giving you trouble:

"I don't know how to control him. "

You can't control another human being without violence and coercion, and is that the kind of relationship you want with him? Of course not. In my opinion, his defiance and craziness can be traced back to the power-based, coercive, physical-restraint (etc) approach.

You are likely furious at my response, but I've found that sometimes my best & biggest life & parenting changes have come FIRST from things that seemed to me as preposterous, outrageous and impossible.

Look into the underlying philosophy, because NOTHING will change if that's not right. You cannot control another human being without violence, coercion, and all the nasty stuff that goes with it.

And your kid IS a separate human being.

Now that I've probably ticked you off, you did ask for advice so here is something helpful. Google "non violent communication" and see what comes up, starting with Marshall Rosenberg's site.

You will LOVE how the new, non-coercive, non-violent relationship feels, but it's radically different than the culture you might be familiar with. If you decide that the confrontations and exasperations and battles are too horrible to continue with, and you want to explore another way, be prepared for hard work and feeling baffled most of the time. But it is SO, SO worth it. And eventually you'll get your bearings. Change is hard but worth it.

Take it from me, a child who was raised violently (spanking, punishments, shaming, etc) and who was kidding myself that I was doing "GD" but in reality still had the oppositional, top-down, power-based relationship despite the fact that there was no spanking. (there was plenty of hauling my DS into Time Out and getting bitten, pinched and scratched in the process) I have turned COMPLETELY around and my relationship with DS is better than ever. Write to me privately if you want.....gotta run.....

[romacox]

Recently I came across some actual scientific studies on that subject.

When we, as adults, become stressed, it effects our mood, and can effect our judgment. It is because stress causes our bodies to produce a hormone called Cortisol which effects the brain and behavior. Children are effected similarly, but are less equipped in dealing with it.

Diet, and the way we deal with our children can actually be the triggers or the solutions. The book is called the "Happy Child Guide".

[mamazee]

We sometimes joke around here that we need a forum specifically for 3.5 years old. It's a tough age for a few reasons. One is that their language is very well developed so they sound almost like little adults, so it's easy to assume their motivations and abilities are way different than they are. 3.5 is as close to 2 as to 5, and they are caught between toddler and child, sometimes behaving closer to the toddler end. If he's still acting more like a toddler, do whatever you would if he were still a toddler, like taking him by the hand, leading him to the toys, and helping him put them away, talking about it all the time. That might be where he is that day.

His language abilities might fool you, and because kids learn language before they learn social graces, he might sound very rude. I try, instead of thinking, "he/she is being rude", to think "he/she is still learning to be polite" and tell him (or her in my case), every time she says something that sounds rude, how it sounds to me and what she could say instead that would sound nicer. They will learn to be polite if they're consistently explained what polite sounds like, but try not to label him or his behavior as rude, as they seem to live up or down to whatever labels are placed on them.

Also, at that age they have a strong drive for autonomy, which is a double edged sword. On one hand, at least a lot of the time they start to really want to do things that can make your life easier, like choosing putting on their own clothes, and doing other things for themselves. But on the other hand, they are hell-bent on getting into power struggles to boost their autonomy. My advice is to stay out of power struggles as much as you can, because his desire to be in power struggles is much higher than yours. You can't win every power struggle with a 3.5-year-old, so save the power struggles for the really big things where you have to win so you'll have the energy to see it through, and let some stuff go. In addition to saving your sanity and energy for the big issues, it will feed his sense of autonomy and, in time, decrease his need to get you into power struggles.

One final thing I will just add on the chance it might help you is that for my older dd, who is very high needs, a breakfast based on protein, like eggs, creates a happier child who is much easier to get along with - all day - than a breakfast based on grains, like cereal or toast. Just throwing that out.

[SallyN]

Ditto.

(I need a "ditto to mamazee" smiley!)

3.5 is very very very hard. Society talks about the "terrible twos" but really it's the second half of three that's the hardest. Especially if you had any sort of "calm" for the first part of age three.

Mine also has tendencies to be a hitter, so that's my primary motivation to avoid spanking, even when I feel like I have no more tools left to try. Because when it comes down to it, if I spank/hit her, that's going to stick in her head as a message that it's okay to hit people that are smaller than you, or to hit people as an acceptable way of expressing anger/frustration.

[nextcommercial]

Three is SOOO hard! They are absolutely adorable and clever. But, they are HARD!

The last six months before Kindergarten are hard also. (just a heads up for that one)


I get really annoyed, mad, and feel a strong urgency to "do something" about this behavior. When most times, it isn't really that urgent. (hard to see at the time it's happening though)

Before spanking, I always think "What if every time I did something wrong, someone was allowed to spank me?". Would I think it's OK for my husband to hit me because I forgot to close the garage door?

Then, I also think about how I want to look if DR Phil was video taping me for his show, and was going to make me watch our little interaction. Would I be proud to watch it? Or would I be mortified?

Stop taking his behavior personally. Stop giving him the power to make you cry. If he's hitting you, block his attempts. Hold his hands tight, and let him calm down. But, don't allow him to hit you. It's never OK for him to hit you. If he knows he can hit you, AND make you cry, he isn't going to feel very safe. That's a lot of power for one little boy to have to deal with.

[kdescalzi]

Thank you for the replies. I really don't believe in spanking and I never want to intentionally hurt my child. That being said, we are just in such a bad place right now and I feel he has no respect for me. The only way to get him to realize I mean business is when I flip out and haul him (not gently) into his room. Only then does he cry and the action is stopped. I have tried everything. I did the whole time in thing, I get at his level and explain why we cannot do x of why we must do y, I try playful parenting ect. He is just hell bent on defying me which I know is normal for his age. Even if it is normal, there are times that he must listen to me.

NELLIEKATZ...I am not upset by your response at all. I agree that I cannot control another human being but I do need him to respect me and listen to my instructions. Yesterday ds was running around at a park when he decided to run towards the road. Dh yelled stop!! Stop!! the road is there. He did not listen and kept running. My dh had to run after him causing them both to slip and fall on the pavement right in front of the road. Ds has major road rash and was super upset. We tried to explain why he needs to listen to us for safety reasons. So if I cannot control him, how do I keep him safe?? Keep him from being violent to me, his sister, the dogs?? Teach him that what mama says is important and must be respected???

Ps. I do now put dd down for he naps just so that I get one on one with ds. We spend that time doing whatever ds wants. I try to give him some good quality time without his sister around. Hasn't seemed to improve his behaviour at all.

[nd_deadhead]

Dear OP, I'm sure sleep deprivation isn't making life any easier for you! you have my sympathy.

I applaud you for trying so hard to find different solutions to dealing with your son.

It kind of sounds to me, from what you wrote, that while you give him tons of love, but maybe what he's looking for is structure and limits. 3 is very much a time of developing independence, which is a huge step, but it's also very scary for a toddler. In order to develop the sense of security to figure things out on his own and make his own decisions, he needs to know that you are always there to guide and correct him (I know, I know, it sure doesn't feel like that, does it?)

The same way he dropped food from his high chair a million times to test the law of gravity, now he's testing the rules of the house. He wants to know for sure that the rules haven't changed from one day to the next - especially when having a new baby in the house has probably upset his apple cart in countless ways. If caring for the baby HAS resulted in different rules for him, that has no doubt been very confusing, and he's trying to figure out what the rules/oundaries are.

Your best defense is to be firm and consistent. As much as you possibly can, use positive directions ("do" statements) instead of Don't. For example, tell him to sit on the chair instead of "don't stand on the chair". I am convinced that kids his age have a hard time comprehending "don't" - and even if he gets it, he can't think of something else to do instead. All he hears is "... stand on the chair... stand on the chair". It comes off as defiance, but it really isn't.

Hang in there! With our twins, we found 4 to be a real turning point. We didn't have a new baby to throw into the mix, but it seemed to be a maturity level that made life a LOT easier.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by kdescalzi

Thank you for the replies. I really don't believe in spanking and I never want to intentionally hurt my child. That being said, we are just in such a bad place right now and I feel he has no respect for me. The only way to get him to realize I mean business is when I flip out and haul him (not gently) into his room. Only then does he cry and the action is stopped. I have tried everything. I did the whole time in thing, I get at his level and explain why we cannot do x of why we must do y, I try playful parenting ect. He is just hell bent on defying me which I know is normal for his age. Even if it is normal, there are times that he must listen to me.

NELLIEKATZ...I am not upset by your response at all. I agree that I cannot control another human being but I do need him to respect me and listen to my instructions. Yesterday ds was running around at a park when he decided to run towards the road. Dh yelled stop!! Stop!! the road is there. He did not listen and kept running. My dh had to run after him causing them both to slip and fall on the pavement right in front of the road. Ds has major road rash and was super upset. We tried to explain why he needs to listen to us for safety reasons. So if I cannot control him, how do I keep him safe?? Keep him from being violent to me, his sister, the dogs?? Teach him that what mama says is important and must be respected???

Ps. I do now put dd down for he naps just so that I get one on one with ds. We spend that time doing whatever ds wants. I try to give him some good quality time without his sister around. Hasn't seemed to improve his behaviour at all.

Respect is a feeling of high esteem. Your DS probably already respects you. How to show respect for someone or something is a learned by example. Our children seeing us being respectful of others is how they learn how to show respect.

Toddlers and preschoolers act out when they are stressed or need attention. So when your DS is hitting and crying and basically not in control of his emotions and actions he isn't defying you, he's just overwhelmed. It's part of being 3.5. Defiance is a conscious decision to do an action because someone doesn't want you to. It isn't being too impulsive to comply or too out of control of yourself to comply ..... it's deliberate.

How do you keep your DS safe? Take him to parks with fences. Have a talk before you go. Say "We can only go to the park if you listen to me and stay safe. If you run off, we leave and can't go back". Talk about how dangerous roads are. If he runs off at the park, leave right away and next time he wants to go, tell him no because he doesn't listen and does dangerous things and you can try the park again when you trust him to listen better.

Once your DS is angry he really isn't able to hear you well. Some activities help preschoolers deal with stress and calm down. Painting, playing with water and playing in sand help my DD when she is stressed. It's easier to deal with a small child's stress before it's a full blown tantrum. If your DS seems to be getting frustrated or even just grumpy, saying "You seem frustrated, how would you like to paint/play in the sink/etc. a little while." can help change his mood. Even a "this just isn't working, we're getting angry, lets go outside/do laundry/read stories" can work in the middle of misbehavior. If you think of the misbehavior as something that's happening with your DS because of stress instead of something he's doing to annoy you, that can help you take it less personal and respond more calmly.

One good book for avoiding and dealing with conflict is Kids, Parents and Power Struggles by Mary Kurcinka.

Your DS's behavior will improve when he feels less stressed. There aren't any instant fixes.

[poppan]

I felt in a very similar space not long ago -- when you wrote "everyday is a battle" that really resonated with how I felt. I have no idea if what worked for me will work for you but I'm adding it here in case it does. It worked so much better than I expected, I was really surprised.

I guess I applied several things at once. I hope some of these work for you--I think they are pretty much what the PPs said but I'm giving concrete examples because that's how I process things myself.
1) I ask them to do things, and I'll help them do it when they're ready. If they're not ready, I don't fight with them. I walk away and ask them to tell me when they're ready to have me help them get dressed, pick up their toys, etc. This worked well for me because I stayed calm and didn't get frustrated (I could go do something else) and they stayed calm too (maybe because they had control and "chose" when they were ready to clean up, get dressed, etc.).
2) There are rewards when they do what I ask, and consequences when they don't do what I ask. Mommy doesn't do X until they do Y.
3) Hitting is never OK, but the serious talk wasn't doing much for me. It worked better for me when I tried to figure out why they were hitting and redirected them to a more appropriate behavior instead. i.e. if DD hit her brother because she wants the toy he has -- I tell her she has to ask nicely if she can have a turn when he's done and that she has to wait for her turn.
4) General modeling and instruction in the appropriate behavior. I think my kids wanted to be cooperative but didn't know what they were supposed to do. For example every evening DS whined and cried all evening that mommy had to carry him here, mommy has to do this, mommy has to do that. It was literally driving me bonkers. Finally I hit upon simply asking him to ask me nicely to do X. If he asked me nicely to carry him from point A to point B, I would do it. After a few days of consistently applying this, he stopped whining at all and goes straight to asking me nicely. He acts like a reasonable little person. And the bonus is that it doesn't escalate and turn into a full evening of mommy has to do this and that all night long. He asks, I respond, and I guess because I responded right away he doesn't have to keep testing me and asking for silly things the whole evening.

[kdescalzi]

Thank you for all your great advice! I am very appreciative.

[Norasmomma]

I agree with mamazee-her post was perfect. My DD is almost 4 and she was really rough for a month or so recently. DH and I both went back to work in the same week, her brother became mobile and in her "stuff", it was a bad month-I hated much of it. I was yelling, screaming and freaking out daily.

We just got a Melissa and Doug reward chart and for us it has been helping immensely DD needs something to see that she is having appropriate behavior.

I just posted last week about what a difficult time we were having with her, but we have had terrible times with her she is a very willful, highly verbal little girl.

[EnchantedMamma]

When my brother was little his hitting got out of control.

The best way to deal with it was not more hitting. Instead, holding him closely and firmly till his defiance passed turned him from a ball of lightening to a ray of sunshine almost every time!

Allowing a child to hit sets a poor precedent, but hitting them to make the point sends a bad message.

I'm sure you can figure out something that 1. stops the undesired behavior, and/or 2. is a punishment/discipline without hypocrisy.