Tell me about delaying formal ed until 7

[Savoir Faire]

Hello all!

My daughter (who will turn 6 in July) is a "young" birthday for her grade. I realized sometime during last Fall that trying to do work with her at that time was totally counterproductive, so I decided to "unschool" for a bit. It went well and I decided in the Spring to slowly add things back in to get ready for "first grade" work.

By the time May came along, I was just Burned Out. We went on vacation for about a month and I was happy for the break, though I reaaalllly worried about how it would work on our schooling routine.

Sure enough, first morning back, and ARGH, the struggles are back with my daughter. We have been working with cursive for her because she has poor fine motor skills. She's an incredibly bright girl, but there are struggles that she has that many other kids don't.

I had the kids each do 4 things this morning. She was mad when her 4-year-old brother got a logic worksheet while she had cursive. Finally, I looked at her and suggested we go back to print. I hate the fighting. I hate the complaining over all of it.

Then I started thinking about delaying formal schooling for a year...again. That would make her seven right about the time we'd start. I have to remind myself that here, at the end of June, she's still FIVE. We knew plenty of kids who turned five during preschool....or who were already older than she is now at the beginning of Kindy.

I swear my coffee must be weak today. I feel as if I'm making no sense.

Here is a major problem: My daughter is not a "go getter" type of person. I am totally dead serious that, had I not taken the serious I'm Your Mama and You Are Going To Stop Pooping Your Diaper Route right before her 3rd bday (oh man, that was bad), she'd still be wearing a diaper today. She hates cleaning. She hates doing anything besides what she wants to do... I know it seems like most kids might be like that, but her brother isn't. He'll actually follow instructions (some of the time).

I have a few concerns. I always hear of people considering/discussing delaying formal education until age seven...but I never hear of anyone actually DOING it!

* I'm worried she will fall further behind. She learns to read through Spelling (Spell to Write and Read) because phonics have been a bit of a struggle. What I'm trying to say she isn't the kid who can rhyme cat hat fat mat easily and learn from there.

*Going on the same theme...what if she is the 7-year-old who can't read yet? We have a lot of homeschooling friends and it is a concern for me. I know that we all learn at our own pace...but I just get worried, ya know?

*The future: People ask if I plan on homeschooling until high school. I don't know. I'd like to...but who is to say she will want to be home with Mama when she's 15? Will delaying formal education, in theory, put her a grade behind? (I ask because her brother will be K when she is 2....so if she went a grade behind, then I'm looking at a K and 1, or an 11th and 12th grader...ahh!).

*Unschooling Forever: It isn't an option for us. I just really don't want to do it. I know it works for some people, but in our family, unschooling isn't the way to go. We really like a loose Classical education. It is just that we're struggling so much right now that even doing history feels impossible.

So...have you been there? How was it? Good? Bad? Were you able to go on to another method???

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

Sure enough, first morning back, and ARGH, the struggles are back with my daughter. We have been working with cursive for her because she has poor fine motor skills. She's an incredibly bright girl, but there are struggles that she has that many other kids don't.

This sounds like a guaranteed recipe for disaster. She's five - almost six? Most kids that age are not learning cursive for a reason. And, certainly most kids with poor fine motor skills aren't attempting cursive for years later. Many kids never learn cursive at all. I would not see discontent with cursive at age five to be a sign she's struggling with things most kids don't but that you need to get a better handle on where she is developmentally and make more appropriate selections.

If she needs work on fine motor I would look for more developmentally appropriate ways to tackle that such as cooking, working with clay, arts activities like using an eye dropper to paint, and activities that strengthen the upper body like wheelbarrow walking, tug of war, etc. There is no reason that these sorts of activities need to be unpleasant. Sitting down and working on cursive is probably one of the least effective ways to help a five year old with fine motor development. The fact that she's reacting so negatively should be a flag that something isn't working.

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

Here is a major problem: My daughter is not a "go getter" type of person. I am totally dead serious that, had I not taken the serious I'm Your Mama and You Are Going To Stop Pooping Your Diaper Route right before her 3rd bday (oh man, that was bad), she'd still be wearing a diaper today. She hates cleaning. She hates doing anything besides what she wants to do... I know it seems like most kids might be like that, but her brother isn't. He'll actually follow instructions (some of the time).

Or, maybe she would have potty trained two months after her third birthday in one day - happened here. Since we don't get a simulator machine we can't know how the other approaches would have worked.

I would try to reframe this in your head. If she's upset with learning then something isn't working. Blaming her personality is tempting, but that is a cop out and it will not lead you any place productive. It isn't a good way to expend your energy and she will pick up on your disapproval. This will put you in an ongoing place of continued conflict. And, as she picks up you approve more of your son, resentment may build there too. Kids deserve teachers who appreciate their unique ways of approaching learning and the world and who can look for the positive in them. So, my suggestion is to place the main focus of your energy now on how can you adapt and become more flexible to accommodate her learning style.

[Savoir Faire]

Honestly, all I feel that I do is adapt. The reason we do the cursive is adaptive. And I really don't feel like going about the reasons publicly. I'm not a pick the hard road just for kicks person...so obviously, if this was suggested, and we researched it and had seen positive things, we were doing it with the best intentions.

But at what point does adaption become "changing things all the time?"

[SundayCrepes]

I've been doing some reading on delayed academics and I am becoming a staunch believer in doing so. In Finland they don't start academics until age 7 and they have the highest academic achievements in Europe by the end of high school. In Sweden they don't start academics (including reading) until 7 and in 3 years they have the highest literacy rates in Europe. (Not all European countries do delayed academics.)

Here is an article on delayed reading: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...hemselves-read

Here's an article by the same author on math: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...r-own-learning

My son (he's 4.5) really fights what he's not interested in. I can't tell you how many times he's told me "I want to do what I want to do." I have no intention of having him grow up with his greatest memories of me being that we battled over everything. Especially when it is unnecessary to battle. I want my son to reach his highest potentially academically and in every other facet of his life. If he is constantly battling with me because he has interests that are different than what I want him to be interested in, he will not attain his greatest potential.

Although we're unschoolers, we're not radical unschoolers and I do a lot of "strewing" and so far I think that will be really successful with his personality. Right now I'm trying to teach him an appreciation for science so I ask him, "Do you want to do a science experiment?" (I don't do any theory at this age, just the fun experiment.) If he wants to do it, we do it. If he doesn't I drop it.

Perhaps the best example we have at this age is learning to ride a bike. We gave him a balance bike at 29 months. Over the next 5 weeks he got good enough to ride it down grassy hills. A few months later he asked to have pedals put on his bike and my husband did that. He rode it once with my husband's help. My husband said he was perfectly capable of riding a bike and all he needed was the confidence. But he wouldn't get on again. For months. I was so frustrated because I wanted him to just do it. However, I bit my tongue and said nothing to him. Then one day he was looking at the bike, wondered if he could ride it, got on and rode across the patio. e went out into public and people were stunned he'd only been riding for a few hours. Because we let him do it at his own pace, he LOVES to ride his bike and is very good at it. We didn't make it a nasty, awful experience.

It sounds like you and your daughter will really be butting heads for the rest of your lives. She may be a "no getter" in reaction to how you interact with her. My recommendation is to figure out how you can be more supportive of her path in life. That or get used to fighting her forever.

ETA: Looks like you posted again while I was typing. I can't imagine who would suggest cursive at age 5, so maybe re-look at that source of information. As far as constantly adapting: I find that a successful way to go about doing things.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

Honestly, all I feel that I do is adapt. The reason we do the cursive is adaptive. And I really don't feel like going about the reasons publicly. I'm not a pick the hard road just for kicks person...so obviously, if this was suggested, and we researched it and had seen positive things, we were doing it with the best intentions.

But at what point does adaption become "changing things all the time?"

Your post makes me think about what I've often observed to be one of the most difficult parts of parenting and homeschooling. That is when there is a difficult fit between the personality of the child and the parent. Some combinations are really challenging. Maybe not what you want to hear, but homeschooling can be a chance for parents to grow and change too. If you persevere ultimately you will have a stronger relationship with your child.

In my experience as a person who is soon finished homeschooling, with some kids it does require a huge amount of adapting. It can be disappointing when you carefully research and find resources or approaches that should be great but turn out to be a flop. That's really just a part of homeschooling. I guess at a certain point you have to ask what is most important. Is it being right about the approach you picked or is it listening to your child's needs. That curriculum that doesn't work right now might be her favorite down the road, you never know. I will say as a parent of a child who had fine motor delays I can't begin to imagine doing cursive with a five year old. I would shelve it and focus on trying out other ways to work on fine motor.

When she's upset and when you are upset that means something is not working and it needs to be fixed. Realistically she's not going to get a personality transplant - so what else can be changed? I think you are right there is no reason why you need to do formal academics at this age. And, I wouldn't worry that if you delay a year it will get her behind as that can always be readjusted later with a grade skip if that's what she turns out to need. I do think it would be a great idea to keep working on finding ways to work together with less conflict.

[elizawill]

i'm pretty sure the moore formula believes in delayed academics until age 7 or 8. i'd find a yahoo group for that method or simply google it (or get the book from your library or something). i bet there are a TON of families that go this route & have great success with it. i believe charlotte mason also does delayed academics, where the focus before age 7 is on other things than the 3 R's, ykwim?

Anyway, I hope someone chimes in with real life advice and support. i know you aren't alone. no worries. hugs.

[ocelotmom]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

*Going on the same theme...what if she is the 7-year-old who can't read yet? We have a lot of homeschooling friends and it is a concern for me. I know that we all learn at our own pace...but I just get worried, ya know?

...and what if she is? Is it going to be the end of the world?

I have a nearly 7 year old who is essentially a non-reader (he can sound out simple words, and has some common sight words, but it's slow and effortful and he doesn't choose to read). It's a pain in the neck to not be able to give him a worksheet and have him work totally independently, or tell him "go look it up!" about his innumerable questions, but I figure that, assuming he doesn't have a learning disability or some other problem, some developmental switch will eventually flip or he'll find something that motivates him to get it figured out.

(I do have a feeling there's a developmental switch that needs to flip. While he can sound out words, he doesn't seem to recognize them as a source of information. He'll ask "What does that say?" about words he's perfectly capable of figuring out, and that sort of thing, seemingly without realizing that it's possible for him to figure it out himself until I tell him to.)

So anyways, I'm not happy to have a 7 year old non-reader, but I know he's exceptionally bright in other areas, and have no real concerns that he'll get there eventually, which is, to me, more important than reading by a specific age.

(I ask because her brother will be K when she is 2....so if she went a grade behind, then I'm looking at a K and 1, or an 11th and 12th grader...ahh!).

The theory is that, by delaying academics until children are more developmentally ready, they'll be able to learn the concepts faster. What takes a full year at age 5 might take a few weeks at age 10, that sort of thing. So, at least in theory, she won't remain a year behind, even if she starts there.

This will presumably only work well in an environment where either all kids are delayed the same, or kids are allowed to progress at their own pace, rather than being held to specific grade-level expectations based on their delayed "grade". Thankfully, as homeschoolers, we provide that

[Savoir Faire]

What's funny is that I do ask myself some of these questions when I'm alone. And I can give good answers.

My daughter and I do butt heads. But, I also feel I understand her much better than a lot of other people do-- perhaps it is because I can also come from a place of stubbornness... or perhaps it is my desire to respect my children since I often didn't feel respected as a child.

The whole reason for cursive...well, it is valid. BUT...I guess it is just like anything else, you want to use X because of this issue, but Y over here works against that, and let's not all forget about Z! Z cancels everything out!

(And she can actually write legible cursive...it is just that the teaching process drives me batty.) But again, this is so NOT about cursive.

I come from a place where I need a lot of consistency and routine, so it is INCREDIBLY hard for me when something isn't working. And I always worry that if I do decide to delay.... I'll always think "am I just trying to weasel my way out of this? Am I quitting? Or am I delaying for the right reasons?"

I just really want what's best for her.

[SundayCrepes]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

What's funny is that I do ask myself some of these questions when I'm alone. And I can give good answers.

My daughter and I do butt heads. But, I also feel I understand her much better than a lot of other people do-- perhaps it is because I can also come from a place of stubbornness... or perhaps it is my desire to respect my children since I often didn't feel respected as a child.

The whole reason for cursive...well, it is valid. BUT...I guess it is just like anything else, you want to use X because of this issue, but Y over here works against that, and let's not all forget about Z! Z cancels everything out!

(And she can actually write legible cursive...it is just that the teaching process drives me batty.) But again, this is so NOT about cursive.

I come from a place where I need a lot of consistency and routine, so it is INCREDIBLY hard for me when something isn't working. And I always worry that if I do decide to delay.... I'll always think "am I just trying to weasel my way out of this? Am I quitting? Or am I delaying for the right reasons?"

I just really want what's best for her.

Yeah, it's so hard when we want what is best for our kids and we worry that WE will prevent that from happening no matter how hard we try.

Read about delayed academics. I think you will feel relieved about that aspect of all this.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

I come from a place where I need a lot of consistency and routine, so it is INCREDIBLY hard for me when something isn't working. And I always worry that if I do decide to delay.... I'll always think "am I just trying to weasel my way out of this? Am I quitting? Or am I delaying for the right reasons?"

I just really want what's best for her.

My 7 year old is academically nowhere near where her siblings were at this age. I occasionally feel some guilt - should I work harder with her? When does the fact that she cannot read, write or do math as well as I think she should become relevant? Is it at 7, 10, what????

There is a flip side to this equation though. My 7 year old has played far more than her siblings, and in many ways is more creative, imaginative, brave and social. She has worked on things - they just are not academics, you know?

Moreover, I really do believe in the importance of play for young children. I do not think academics are as important as play. The fact that I am a little lazy (myybe the wrong word - determined to avoid power struggles and wasted time would be better) and she is quite headstrong about playing and not working may be a good thing in the long run. I do not know - only time will tell. I do know children are capable of "catching up" in very short order when they are motivated (not only have I read it here, but I have seen it with my older children and writing) - so there is nothing to loose by letting her focus on playing.

I do insert some non-play (but still very cool) learning experieces through the use of community activites and field trips. Indeed, if you butt heads with a child, the easiest way to do things is to remove yourself from the equation - sign her up for Brownies or art classs and let them instruct her, lol Alternately go to a lot of museums where she will learn stuff while playing.

As per your need for scheduel and consistancy, how about schedueling time instead of content? It could be that every morning you wake up and read a story, followed by the kids doing 1/2 an hour of a variety of leaning activites (blocks, mazes, etc) You could use workboxes - stick many fun/learning things in boxes, but let them choose what to do from he box. You can also have set days for things, Wednesday is Library day, Friday swimming, etc.

I would look up the ideas of Thomas Jefferson. http://www.tjedonline.com/free-article.php?id=161
Some people think he is a bit of a farce, but , eh, whatever. Take the ideas that work and leave the rest. He talks about schedueling time and delayed academics. He seems to mix an USing approach with Classical, which might speak to you. Good luck!

[SundayCrepes]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

I would look up the ideas of Thomas Jefferson. http://www.tjedonline.com/free-article.php?id=161

There's some good stuff here. For the op, these quotes might be especially helpful:

3. Inspire, not Require

“If the purpose is to train leaders, it’s important not to force the young person through their learning experiences. Force in learning kills the spirit, dampens the passion and destroys the zest and life of learning. Force trains followers, not leaders. …Inspiring, in contrast to ignoring and forcing, means finding out what the students need and then creatively encouraging them to engage it on their own—with excitement and interest.”

Oliver DeMille, A Thomas Jefferson Education, 2nd Edition, pages 41-43


4.Structure Time, not Content

“We need structure in order to give adequate time and attention to learning, but the key is to structure the time, not the content. …Different things work for different students. Remember that the purpose of the structure is simply to ensure that students have sufficient time to study. The mentor doesn’t have to be there the whole time, but should interact often, and the students should be given great freedom to read and study and experiment according to their own interests. Always remember the Phases; this type of structure is usually detrimental before the young student is truly ready for intense study.”


Oliver DeMille, A Thomas Jefferson Education, 2nd Edition, pages 45-46

AND

What are the “phases of learning?”
Core Phase (ages birth – 8 yrs.)
Love of Learning Phase (8 yrs. – 12 yrs.)
Scholar Phase (12 yrs. – 16 yrs.)
Depth Phase (College or equivalent)
Mission Phase (Change the World)

AND

The Core Phase is the first of the Foundational Phases, and serves as the foundation for all the rest of a child’s life. This is when parents nurture their children in the safe, cozy atmosphere of home and family life. During this period, they get a spiritual education by learning about the difference between wrong and right in the secure care of their mother and father. They are exposed to inspiring music, good books, and an atmosphere of learning through the family culture. Highly structured and strongly pushed academics are not yet a part of a Core Phase child’s life.

Play is a huge part of the Core Phase child’s education. As Maria Montessori taught, a child “learns everything without knowing he is learning it, and in doing so passes little from the unconscious to the conscious, treading always in the paths of joy and love.”

Work is another big part of the Core Phase. Children learn what work is, and are lovingly instructed by their parents as they help with the daily chores. The time children spend learning how to work and obey parents and rules provide valuable lessons they will use in many circumstances (including later academic work) and through the rest of their lives.

The key to a successful Core Phase is constant interaction with the parents. Too many activities outside of the home can be crippling to the Core Phase experience, resulting in frustration and confusion for the child. Work and play are done with Mom and/or Dad and siblings, and the parents’ patience throughout the teaching of basic skills is needed.

"The establishment of the Core occurs roughly between the years of 0-8; the maintenance and nourishment of the Core is a life-long process. …This consists of the lessons of good/bad, right/wrong, true/false, and is accomplished through work/play."

Oliver DeMille, A Thomas Jefferson Education, 2nd Edition, pages 31-32

A child in Core Phase should:
Learn the difference between good and bad, and how to make good choices
Learn how to work, and how to be responsible
Learn about God and his or her relationship with Him
Play—which is the best way for a child to learn about the world around him
Spend most of his time at home with his family, being nurtured and loved

[katelove]

Formal Steiner education doesn't start until age 7. Our baby is nowhere near school-age yet so no personal experience to share but we plan to send her to a Steiner school. I think there is a Steiner section on here though so maybe someone from there would have some experience which might be helpful.

[Dakota's Mom]

My son will be 8 next week. He does not read well. He can sound out small words. He can sound out bigger words if I cover up half the word at a time. He knows a lot of sight words. But he is not comfortable reading. Am I worried? No. He will learn when that switch clicks over. My husband taught himself to read at age 3. Is he worried? You bet. But I emphasize the things my son can do and let it go at that. I', pretty sure that he will be reading before he is 10 or 12. Give him a math problem and he will tell you the answer. He can figure things out very quickly. Just not reading.

Waldorf theory does not stress academics until after the first teeth fall out. I would relax about what she is doing until then at least.

I know there are some who say that you should start with cursive, but I'm not sure that would work. At least not for my son.

Try to relax and take things at your daughter's pace. It will work out.

Kathi

[Momma Aimee]

very very very timely for me -- THANKS