Help me learn the basics of gentle discipline

[lovebeingamomma]

I have a 3.5 year old and 2 year old, and discipline is always pretty consistent and I do believe in spanking, but now I have ceased spanking in preparation to adopt a child in the next year or so. I don't believe spanking would benefit a child that has been abused, so I'm trying to learn now how to discipline without it. If your'e first thought is to lecture me on why spanking my children is not beneficial either then don't bother responding, I'm looking for non-judgmental responses. The basics of gentle discipline methods when my kids are defiant and disrespectful towards me, which are behaviors that I don't accept. Specifically bedtime and nap time is hard, because I can't use time-outs, because their bed is their time-out place. So I'm at a loss. Talking to them doesn't work so well with these age children, try as I may they are just all over the place, mentally, physically and emotionally. Sometimes it works very well, but when they are overtired I'm not sure what to do to get them to stay in their beds.

[momtoTnT]

I think that GD (at least at my house) is about teaching your children...how to treat others, what is appropriate, what is not appropriate, what is safe, what is not safe. I also think it's about respect - I have to show them respect in order for them to learn to respect me. I don't think it's respectful to yell at them or hit them. I'm not perfect, and have yelled at my kids - more times than I care to admit - but I work on it, and I apologize to them for treating them that way.

Nothing that we do works 100% of the time, but that's not the goal. I don't expect (nor do I want) complete obedience and compliance from my kids.

My kids are close in age like yours are. We do a lot of talking - always have from a very young age. When talking isn't practical, we redirect and/or distract. If they are getting into something that I don't want them to get into, I move it out of reach/sight and explain why I don't want them to do it. We also use time-out if the kids need to cool off - but for us, it's not a "go to your room for X minutes", it's more of a "you just hurt your sister, you need to go to your room and cool off until you feel a bit better/more in control and can treat your sister nicely". Then afterward, we talk about it.

As for bed time and nap time - those were hard times for us (nap time especially) too. It took us a good year+ to get to the point where we are now - stories, drink, cuddle, sleep - and they still sometimes goof around - I ignore it. To get there though, it took us laying with them and sneaking out after they were asleep, then sitting next to them, then sitting outside their room, until we finally got where we are now.

HTH/is kind of what you were looking for.

[LynnS6]

As the PP said: Gentle Discipline is about teaching. What do you want your child to learn?

It's not about punishment. It could be about making amends. So if my child breaks something of yours, they get to help fix it. If they hurt, you they get to help make you feel better. If they spill something, they learn to pick it up.

It's also about prevention when you're not in a position to be teaching. So, a 16 month old doesn't understand why it's dangerous to bang on grandma's fragile glass objects. Thus, I remove them/prevent access and explain that it can break. I don't assume they'll understand after a single explanation, because they're young.

For naptime, I'd think about why they're getting overtired. Maybe a simple solution is to put them down earlier. If they do get overtired (it happens to all of us), then remain calm, and just keep putting them back. Over and over. Be really really really boring.

Finally, it's about understanding your child's development. Long winded explanations don't help a 12 month old. (Actually explanations in the middle of a tantrum hardly ever help anyone.) Know what your child is capable of. Know what they're not, and teach them to do what you want them to do when you're not around.

[LynnS6]

Tips for parents of toddlers (warning: long)

I found this too, which I did up not too long ago:

These are my general toddler strategies. Not everyone on MDC will agree with me, but they're at least a place to start thinking.

General tips for disciplining a toddler:

Below I've given a list of my general tips for disciplining a toddler that I've collected over the years. None of these are original with me – all are things that I’ve gotten from books. My favorite books are:
Kids, Parents & Power Struggles
Playful Parenting
Parenting with Purpose by Lynda Madison (I like this one because it speaks directly to under 4s)
The Secret of Parenting
Becoming the Parent You Want to Be

First, remember that discipline = teaching. For me, good discipline means teaching the child what to do and what to expect. Also remember that learning new things takes time. Your 20 month old can’t tie their own shoes, so don’t expect them to learn to not throw their spaghetti on the floor in one day.

Before you discipline remember that children need to be well fed and well rested before they can learn anything. Feed your toddler every 2 hours. Make sure they get enough sleep. If you're both tired and cranky (dinner time), you're going to have more battles. Try to plan a quiet activity or a way to cool off then. If your child has been sick, expect their behavior to be "off" for the 10 days to 2 weeks it takes them to fully recover (even if they "look" OK).

Note too that these are my ideals. I often fall far short of my ideals. My goal is not to be perfect, but to keep moving in the right direction.

Here's the short version of the list:
1. Create a positive environment
2. Fill your child's need for attention in positive ways
3. Tell them what to do, not what not to do.
4. Remember where they are in development.
5. Decide if the behavior needs correction/stopping
6. Find a safe way for them to do what they're trying to do ('honor the impulse')
7. Gently help them comply/physically show them what you mean
8. Explain/warn of the consequences (keep them logically related)
9. Calmly enforce the consequences


1. Create a positive environment.
For me, this means child-proofing so my child is free to explore. The easiest way for a child to have a good experience is to simply be able to explore without limits because there’s nothing dangerous around. So, toys should be age-appropriate (that means no toys that they can take apart), books should be board books only, knick knacks should be put away, stereo equipment etc. should be behind doors/guards.

For others, this means helping their child explore the dangerous things until the urge is out. (That's easy to do with one, harder to do with more than one because your attention is divided.) Sometimes if you hold a fragile object or help them hold fragile object, that's all it takes. I also taught my kids a 'one finger' touch. It's easier to keep it controlled and gentle.

IMO, every child should have at least one room where they are free to explore. Our kitchen was one of these rooms. All drawers except 2 had strong latches on them. The 2 free drawers had pans in them. One cupboard was all theirs, full of tupperware and plastic baby bowls and cups (and a few pans). The other room was the living room.

2. Make sure you fill up your child's cup of attention daily. If they get positive attention from you, they're less likely to act out just to get attention. I'm a firm believer in 30 minutes or so of focused attention where the child takes the lead in the play. When things are getting rough, this helps restore our connection.

3. Tell them what they CAN do. Don't phrase things in the negative . Phrasing things positively teaches your child what is acceptable and gets their mind off what they shouldn't be doing. So, instead of saying "don’t jump on the couch" say "come jump on the pillows". Instead of 'don't stand up on the chair' say 'sit down'.

4. Remember where you child is in development. A young toddler has a short attention span. A toddler has little impulse control. Toddlers have a hard time stopping a behavior once they've started it. A toddler isn't great a using words when they're upset. Thus, actions speak louder than words for many reasons with a toddler. Toddlers are physical and tactile learners. They need to explore things physically and with their hands. Toddlers learn by repetition. They aren't doing this 85 times in a row just to frustrate you.

5. Decide whether a behavior is really worth stopping. Do I really care if my child takes ALL the puzzles off the shelf? Is it OK for my kids to slide down the stairs on an old air mattress? Why shouldn't my kids ride their scooters in the house? (OK, they can't do it while I'm cooking dinner, but other times, why not?)

6. Find something that the child CAN do that’s not the forbidden activity. Find a way to honor the impulse if what they're doing isn't safe/acceptable to you. So, if she wants to jump on the couch, put pillows on the floor and have her jump on those. If he wants to play in the toilet, set him up at the sink with a step stool, some bubbles and a few utensils.

7. Gently help them comply. Under 3s are physical learners and sometimes need to be physically shown what you expect. Handing them the toy you want them to pick up. Gently helping them put their feet on the floor might be more effective than telling them 5 times "feet on the floor".

8. Warn of consequences Tell your child what to expect. "Please drive that truck on the floor. Throwing is not safe. If you don't drive it, I’ll have to put it up to keep us safe."

When you're thinking of a consequences, keep them related to what the child is doing. Timeout for throwing spaghetti on the floor doesn't make much sense to me. Better would be to have the child help pick up the spaghetti. (And yes, sometimes that meant me putting a single strand of spaghetti in my child's hand, and walking with them over to the trash. That single strand is 'helping'. At 5, my dd can now clean up after her own spills.)

8. Enforce consequences
This must be done consistently and calmly. Enforcing it after telling them three times "if you throw that (again), I’ll take it." only teaches them that you don’t mean what you say, or that they've got 5-10 chances before they have to listen.

You also need to remain calm. This is the absolute hardest part for me. If I'm reacting from a place of anger, I'm not disciplining (i.e. teaching). I'm more likely to punish than teach.

What are appropriate consequences for a child this age? First, try to 'help them' gently comply. If that doesn't work, then I apply:

1. Removing the toy if they’re not using it correctly.
2. Removing the child from the situation.
3. Remove yourself from the reach of the child. For example, if they're hurting you. So, if they hit, gently take their hand and say calmly "don’t hit. that hurts. You must be gentle (and demonstrate gentle)." If they do it again, then get up and say "Don’t hit, that hurts. I won’t play with you if you hit." and walk away.
4. If you’re losing it, then it’s probably best to separate yourself from your child until you’re calm enough to deal with them reasonably. I had to do this on some long days with our both our kids. I'd plop them in their cribs/rooms, and after 3-5 minutes, I could deal with him again.

For kids under 3, time-outs don’t do any good. (for older kids, it's also highly debatable.) Young children don't understand why they're in 'timeout', and they don't link the punishment (which happens after they've done something) to whatever it was they did.

Just removing them to another location is generally enough. So, sit them on the couch or a chair and say calmly, "keep your hands out of the toilet. it’s dirty." Then walk away (and close the bathroom door!). They’ll get up right away, but that’s OK. If you're really on your game you can add "Let's go play in the sink."

After our kids hit 3, we do timeouts in our house on occasion. Almost always it's when things have gotten out of hand we need to separate to keep ourselves sane/safe. If my kids hit, they were levitated to their rooms until they calmed down. Sometimes we send a child to their room for interminable whining. If you've been offered a hug, a cuddle and an alternative to whatever is making you whine, and you're STILL whining, it's time for you to go be by yourself. My kids often feed off of my negative energy, so a separation (either me putting myself in my room or putting them in their room) was effective in breaking the cycle.

[Drummer's Wife]

At 2 and 3.5 do they still need a nap? Maybe they do, I just ask b/c all four of my kids stopped napping regularly right around their 2nd birthday. That would eliminate the naptime struggle, and possibly make bedtime go smoother, too. Ignore me if this is of no help.

[lovebeingamomma]

thanks everyone this info is helpful. Yes they still need a nap, I wouldn´t mind if they didn´t, but if I let them stay awake they will crash around 4 to 5pm which obviosuly messes up their nighttime sleep. I´m still not understanding specifically what would be helpful for naptimes, I can stay there and sit on the floor til they fall asleep, which I usually end up doing. But the point here isn´t just that I want them to sleep, I want them to listen to me. If I tell them to stay in their beds, and the second I leave the room they are up stripping their beds or their own clothes...lol...that´s not acceptable to me.

And my two year old totally gets what time outs are, and they work very well for her.

[A&A]

I suggest reading the book Unconditional Parenting

[ssh]

LynnS6 really gave you a good overview of GD. I also recommend Kids, Parents & Power Struggles by Mary Kurcinka.

The problem with naps and treating them like a discipline issue is that a person can only sleep if they are sleepy. Getting a child upset undermines their ability to sleep so it can difficult issue to deal with.

As for a 2 or 3.5 year old "listening" to you, and I assume you mean obey not actually listen, the 2 year old doesn't have impulse control so they can not control their own behavior well. At 3.5 some LOs still have no impulse control but most have the beginnings of it and can comply a better than they could at 2. Learning to follow directions takes time and patience. Once my DD became 4 it was amazing how much better she was at complying and it's still only a percentage of the time.

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by ssh

The problem with naps and treating them like a discipline issue is that a person can only sleep if they are sleepy. Getting a child upset undermines their ability to sleep so it can difficult issue to deal with.

I agree. I never had nap or bedtime struggles b/c I don't make them sleep when they don't want to. There was a transition period with all of my kids, where once they were ready to stop taking that afternoon nap they would be cranky at dinnertime, or fall asleep super early - but then they regulated, and were able to stay up until later, then sleep 12 hours straight.

I would be frustrated, too, trying to get kids to sleep - nap or night - if I had to keep putting them back in bed and coercing them to please fall asleep. Maybe I'm just too lazy for that. lol I would also be frustrated if I was the kid who didn't feel like napping.

I guess if sleeping is the biggest obstacle and irritation, I would focus on that first, and then their disrespectful/wild behavior. My 3 yo has just now sorta 'started listening' to me, where he'll follow directions and realize what's expected - but it's certainly not all the time. He's still so young, and egocentric - which doesn't mix well with his ever-developing verbal skills and independence.

[intentionalmama]

When my son was the ages of your children - I liked him napping. Partly because I thought he needed it and often because I needed it. Anyway, I would put on some nice relaxing music, have the room nice and dark and crawl into bed with him. Even if he didn't want to - he would eventually settle down and snuggle up with me and go to sleep. Now, I know that is only with one - so not sure how that would go with two. If I had two I might try and get them settled and then tell them a little story or put on a story with music on the cd. I I loved this time together and he would often sleep for 2 - 3 hours. Which meant I had some time to get things done and usually a little nap as well. I admire your openness to wanting to try and find new ways.

[nina_yyc]

I don't know about your 2yo but I have a 3.5yo DD and I find that telling her to nap at this age is just counterproductive. She does 30mins quiet time playing by herself in her room every day after lunch. If she's tired, she naps. That's the only way she has ever napped since we have stopped nursing. If I actually told her to nap I'd find myself in a pretty ugly power struggle.

[mom2grrls]

If I tell them to stay in their beds, and the second I leave the room they are up stripping their beds or their own clothes...lol...that´s not acceptable to me. >>>>>

Well it may not be acceptable to you but it's normal considering their ages. My girls share a room and they are 8 and 11, they still sometimes fool around in there when it's bedtime. They don't strip their beds or clothes but at those ages they may have if they were left alone Do you have a separate room so they could nap apart? perhaps you could lay one down a little before the other so one is asleep by the time the other is layed down. You may just have to sit with them for awhile too until the phase passes.

There is a GD book thread, i'm sure if you start reading you'll get a good start with it. To me GD is about something I can use through all ages/stages, I don't think any teenager is going to go to time out when you don't like what they're doing GD isn't necessarily about lengthy discussions, esp with children those ages it's an idea that discipline is a learning thing not a punishment thing. Here some online resources I have used also:
http://wikiparenting.parentsconnect....scipline_Ideas
http://purejoyparenting.com/
http://gentlechristianmothers.com/ even if you're not christian it has good ideas
http://goybparenting.com/

[mtbmomma]

Have you tried books on tape or special CDs for naptime? I would get everyone ready, make sure you have a routine: lunch, quiet play (puzzles, coloring...,), potty, nap. I would put on a long book on tape and have them lie in bed and listen. I would think that might be enough to help them fall asleep. Also make sure the room is dark, they have both gone to the bathroom and sometimes having a sippy cup of water in bed helps as well for my dd (though she is only 19 months). Having worked in daycare for a number of years, I would strongly suggest something like a long story you read or a book on tape to keep their attention and allow them to slowly relax and fall off to sleep.

Also, if one doesn't seem to want to sleep, after 10 or 15 minutes offer them some books and soft puzzles to do quietly in their bed. A small chalk board works well for this time too. Let them know that if they are not quiet they will not be able to have these options, but don't bring them out until you are certain they will not fall asleep.

Good luck, 2-3 year olds can be a struggle, but so much fun. When I find myself getting stressed I try to see things from the perspective of a small person with a world to explore and the means to do it for the first time.

[littlest birds]

Our 7 and 10yo dds share a room and they get awfully playful in their beds at night and in the morning as with PP. I have various strategies for approaching this. Mainly I allow it for a while in the morning then say it is time to get up. I discourage it at night and they usually read to each other at night anyhow so they switch to reading or I come back again later to tell them to calm down or they calm down enough to fall asleep. One way or another it always turns out okay.

Way back when: At naps, we would usually read with them and lay down with them one they were toddlers. (This could be trying if we hoped to get up soon but oh well, we suffered a little.) So they love to hear us read... they lay still... perfect outcome. If they were tired enough they would fall asleep. When we had 2yo twins we were transitioning out of naps. I would try to have naps, but quiet time was good enough. I would close myself in their room and lay down, sing very soothing songs, read books, hold them close even if they struggled a little to calm them down. If my effort to calm them down resulted in sleep then they had a nap. If my effort to calm them down resulted only in a short episode in a darkened room with mom getting to lay down, then so be it there was no nap. I did what I could and I lived with some cranky awkward times and some odd nap times. It just wasn't within my control to decide what kind of a rest we would all have. I'd just do my best to set them and myself up for a good rest and let what happened happen. Some day were better than others. But I had blessings to count and accepted the funky days.

When they were outgrowing naps there was a transitional phase when they might fall asleep at odd times later in the day. We might make the effort to wake them up soon if they fell asleep, or just enjoy the quieter evening knowing that there could be some difficult waking later on. Soon they finished the transition and had a decent bedtime and rarely fell asleep in the daytime and all was well. We accepted tiredness and awkwardness instead of creating a battle, but it was temporary.

Problem solving with older ones: Last night our dds were super restless and after speaking to them several times, I actually let odd come in to sleep on the living room couch because her sis wouldn't leave her alone. But the sis followed and protested that she would only feel safe sleeping in living room too. I had a dilemma between their two different wants/needs at that moment since this was a separation effort and I didn't want to okay the younger's preference againt the other. I offered younger dd a choice to go back to bdrm or lay down with dad who was already asleep. She was totally against either choice after I talked to her a little while. She wanted to sleep on couch #2. Sooo... after trying to get my points across I ultimately decided not to force the issue. No need to win, both seem actually willing to be calmer now that I have gotten involved. I stepped away. I told ydd that she needed to talk to her sister and come to an agreement with her about where they could both agreeably sleep without being noisy and I didn't want anything more to do with it. Big sis was the one who had had the original problem, and I wasn't sure what would work best anyway. Maybe she did? So the subject sort of got changed along the way from noisiness to who sleeps where. Oh well. They decided somehow, and I didn't hear a word about whatever they discussed nor did we hear a peep the rest of the night. Ydd laid down with dad and we carried her to her bed later, which was one of tne of the choices I originally offered.

So for this to happen I first of all have no real need to control where they sleep beyond health/safety/respecting others' space. So I have let go of the idea that they had to even be in bdrm. (They already have a perfectly well-established routine so I'm not worried about messing that up at all) I offer a choice: BUT They are in all fairness capable of making or refusing a choice, so it is age-appropriate to offer but allowing ydd that refusal was respectful of her as human. It didn't actually harm anything to accept her refusal. They seemed capable of figuring something out and of understanding the goal of calming down and negotiating whether to be in separate places. So I also let go of an irrelevant effort to monitor what they discussed and control the outcome. Again it was age-appropriate and trusting to believe that dds could solve this without me. I would have accepted quite a few different solutions ultimately. Sleeping could have happened in various places. If the problem had continued I would have found a new strategy. It was not quick and easy to solve but it wasn't hard and angry either.

Obviously my children are not especially obedient. IDK how to attain that goal respectfully. I don't have that goal. However I do insist on being heard when I must be heard and I do set absolute boundaries when I need to with clarity.

Often GD is very adaptive. I think you have to know how little you can get away with controlling and what things can be controlled by shaping the environment differently. Then you have to figure out how to be a helper through each situation. Then you are more showing the way and finding a way together and less deciding the way yourself and finding ways to get conformity. It's really hard to get other people to sign on to things just because you say so, I am describing it in this way with examples because I feel like GD is about having a particular way of thinking that you use and creating a flexible state of mind about your children. HTH!

Best of all wishes on your parenting and adoption journey!

[colsxjack]

One other thing that I thought of that I dont think was mentioned and that may help....maybe try having their time-out place be somewhere other than their bed. If their bed is used as a punishment place, or a place for them to go to when they are worked up it may be hard for them to see it as a place to relax and be calm.

I am a firm believer that a bed and bedroom should be for sleeping and relaxing. That goes for all people whether they are toddlers, children, teens or adults. Having a bed be the most relaxing place and mostly stress free place helps the mind relax and calm and sleep better.

When I was in University I read a tip about not studying in bed as a way to get better sleep. I tried it out and it worked wonders. I used to be a horrible sleeper. Now my bed is for sleeping and relaxing mostly and I fall asleep and stay asleep much better.

So, maybe if you are going to do time-out get a little time out stool or mat or something and put it somewhere in the family room or kitchen or something. Have a place in the room that is for playing but not the bed. Make it so the bed is for relaxing reading, chilling out and sleeping. That may help.

[lovebeingamomma]

thanks everyone! Good stuff.

[Bindigirl]

I didn't read every post so I hope I'm not repeating info but myself and two other friends all have kids around 3 yrs old all of them have recently stop wanting to take naps after a week or two of fight to get them down for naps we all gave in. This is a bummer since two of us have newborns as well and a nap for all of us would be nice. However I do make my DD have a quite time where she gets her blanket and pillow and curls up on the couch with me to watch a movie or show. If she's really tired she will fall a sleep on her own. This helps with the break down later in the evening and has help with getting her to bed at a earlier hour. She now will go down between 9 and 10 and wakes up between 7:30 - 8:30. We start the bed time routin around 8 or 8:30 and will cut it short if she is miss behaving. Usually after brushing teeth and putting pjs on she gets to watch one Little Enstien then a short book, prayers and then sleep. If she is acting up I take away the LE and then the book after a few times of this she started to behave knowing she would miss out on it if she didn't. My daughter is not the typical girl she is a handful and we struggle everyday trying to teach her respect for her parent, adults and others. Good luck I know how frustrating it is.

[poppan]

I totally agree with the PPs who said it's hard to get someone to take a nap if they aren't tired. I give my kids the option to play or read quietly in their room if they aren't tired, but they have to stay in their room.

Also, I have to separate my two into two rooms otherwise they will play with each other and definitely won't nap.

[msmiranda]

It's already been mentioned once on this thread, but I recently read "The Secret of Parenting" by Anthony Wolf and found it incredibly helpful. "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn is, I think, essential reading for GD parents, in that it provides the underlying rationale for not using punishments and taking a "working with" rather than a "doing to" approach, but the most common complaint I hear about it is that it doesn't contain specific strategies for how to handle various common challenges. The Secret of Parenting is a great companion volume (and a very fast read) because it gives some great insights at the beginning about why a non-punishment based model is good for kids, then gives many specific strategies and responses for different situations and age groups. I'm sure I will continue to refer to it for many years to come! So far, these techniques are helping with my 3yo.

[PennyRoo]

I really love and reccommend the book Respectful Parents, Respectful Kids.