Am I In the Wrong Here? ("Punishment")

[ramama]

We had plans to go to the sprayground today and as a special treat I invited two of Riley's friends to come with us. They are brother and littler sister. The brother, M, is DDs best friend. The little sister, J, is someone who Riley often gets a long with, but she's younger than Riley and she sometimes gets on Riley's nerves. We invited them yesterday and made arrangements with their mother to go.

Fast forward to today, Riley doesn't want J to come. I apologize and say that often siblings are a package deal, just like Riley and my youngest are, and I'm sorry that I invited her if she didn't want her to come, but that to uninvite her would be rude. Riley goes on an on, about can she tell J to not play with them, and to not play with Avery (my youngest) because Riley will want to play with M and Avery and not J, so J can't play with either M or Avery. I discuss how this is not fair to J, and how it would make her feel, etc. Then she says that she's going to bring snacks and not let J have any, or whatever punishment she can mete out to J. I managed to remain calm throughout the whole exchange.

This goes on for literally 2 hours, the back and forth. Riley always does this, by the way, does not know when to drop something, the nagging and arguing. She could make a saint lose patience. Finally, after we had talked about every possible point and situation at least 10 times and we were getting nowhere, I tell her that the subject is over and I will not entertain any more talk of it, and if she mentions the subject again we will not be going. Not 5 seconds later she says "I don't want J to come." So, I say then we're not going today, we'll see if it will work for tomorrow.

Now she's been crying and begging and bargaining for 20 minutes. She's calling me a liar, promising that she'll never do it again, asking if she can earn back the trip, etc. Again, not knowing when to drop a subject.

Was I a total monster? Should I have done something different? I really don't think there's time to earn back the trip today, as we were to leave about 2 hours from now. Plus, I wasn't really inclined to have earning it back as an option anyway. M and J are close neighbors, so rescheduling the trip is not a problem.

Riley is 6.5, Avery is 4.5, M is 7.5, and J is about 5.5 I think. Just so you have all the info!

[philomom]

Yep, no trip today and no trip anytime soon if she doesn't grow a clue. Be strong, mama!

[2cutiekitties]

What is a sprayground?

I wasnt aware siblings were a package deal, I have an only. Good to know these things.

Did you ask Riley before inviting them? I think I probably give too much ownership to my 3 yr old, but I would have never just invited someone without discussion.

I think you arent wrong and possibly are in saint category for listening to all that for 2 hrs!!!! I would have cracked.

[Llyra]

Truthfully? I would have blown a gasket after about fifteen minutes, and unilaterally canceled the outing. I wouldn't have lasted two hours. And if the nagging continued, I'd latch myself in my bedroom and let her whine. I see nothing wrong with what you did (except for maybe tolerating the fuss for as long as you did) and I think you should stay strong like the PP said. To exclude the child's younger sibling would have been inexcusably rude, and I don't think children get any special pass on being rude. The world is full of people who get on our nerves, and sometimes we just have to tolerate them, politely, because it's the right thing to do. That's what civilized life is all about. Furthermore, nagging and whining and making silly threats (like about not sharing the snack) is behavior that just doesn't fly in our house. I'm always telling DD1 if you can't be nice, then stay home.

[ramama]

Thanks, ladies! I cave a lot just to have it over with, but I'm not caving this time!

A sprayground is just like a playground but with water features, like sprinklers, sprayers, etc. A real nice treat on a hot day!

I asked Riley yesterday if we should invite M and J and she was over-joyed.

I guess I don't always see siblings as a package deal, but mine are rather close in age, as are M and J, and I know how it is for one to be excluded since an activity appropriate for one is usually appropriate for the other too. And J falls right between my DDs in age, so she rounds out the bunch nicely and ensures that my youngest isn't left out of play.

[ramama]

I normally wouldn't have put up with it for so long, but Riley has problems empathizing with other people, so I really tried to get her to understand how J would feel in each situation that Riley was trying to impose and really get her to understand how it feels to be excluded, especially for no reason.

I'm standing strong, though. But it sucks...

[SeekingJoy]

I wouldn't have tolerated the whining as long as you did without extenuating circumstances, and have been known to turn around and walk out after a conversation makes a second or third loop. I also would have canceled the playdate. Or, if the same rude behavior started up once there, we would have gone home after a reminder or two.

[nextcommercial]

I wish we had a sprayground. We live in the desert, you'd think there'd be one in every park. I think there are maybe three in the valley, and they are always packed.

I'd also have cancelled the trip. I'd feel bad about inviting friends then cancelling on them though, because it isn't their fault.

I probably wouldn't be making a trip to the sprayground in any big hurry either. AND, when I did, it'd just be my own kids, and I'd remind her how she behaved the last time you tried to invite a friend.

I still REALLY wish we had those here.

[COgirl19]

I think you did the right thing. You clearly explained the consequences and she crossed that line. I think if you backed down it would set a bad precedent for future behavior.

[artgoddess]

I think you are fine too. I know we want to be fair with our kids all the time and you DD probably isn't getting it that things not going your way is not equal to mom not respecting her. Sometimes I remind my 6 year old that I would not even be at the library story time if I wasn't going out of my way to do something nice for him and his sister and if he was going to complain about the fact that there are no red mats left to sit on and ruin the trip for everyone then next week I'll save myself the aggravation of packing everyone up for the library. (just an example)

[nola79]

Oh my goodness, do we have the same child?? Seriously, my ds drives me CRAZY with the nonstop arguing, trying to bargain, etc. I have my fill of it after about 10 minutes, maybe less. No, I think you did the right thing. I dealt with a similar situation yesterday, and I did the same thing.

[limabean]

You did the right thing. I would have cancelled the trip (with fair warning, like you did) after about the third run-through of the conversation.

[lerlerler]

you did the right thing but please remember that that which drives you most crazy about your child TODAY may be their best attribute as they grow.

I wouldn't accept the behaviour either but imagine Riley 7 years from now when her friends are trying to cajole her to do something "wrong" (drugs, cheating, whatever)

She's got a great personality to stay strong and not be swayed by arguments!

[KatWozBlue]

pat yourself on the back for letting it go on for that long, I would have cancelled it and it wouldn't have bothered me in the least.

I have kids pretty close in age too and though they are not a package deal all the time, (I don't bring the sibling to birthday parties for example), during the summer, people understand that they are both home with me and I am not hiring a sitter for a playdate.

[pianojazzgirl]

Another vote for sounds like you handled it great mama.

I'm imagining myself in the same scenario with a family that we're friends with and I can't imagine bringing my 2 kids, plus the older sibling from the other family and not the younger sib from the other family. The littler one would feel so left out and sad. I know sibs don't always have to go as a package deal (like if I was inviting one of dd's school friends who's family we aren't friends with and who's sibling dd doesn't even really know then I wouldn't think I needed to invite said sibling), but in this case, when your two kids are friends with both of the other two kids, I think it was necessary to invite both sibs.

[mattemma04]

Good choice to cancel. Only problem I see is your child might blame J and not herself for the outing being canceled. I hope she does understand that it was her planned exclusion activities of J that resulted in noone going.

My kids are 3 years apart and even with that I still need to try and do activites that we can all do.It is hard to just drop off one kid,and take the other home while we wait to go back and get the other.

My kids are in a Montessori school where the kids in each class range in ages 3 to 4 years apart. While all ages interact in school the parents generally have their kids interact with kids of the same age or one year difference outside of school.

[Marsupialmom]

I agree going to a pool/water source often is siblings are a package deal.

I would encourage helping keep the younger one busy and less annoying.

She needs to "deal" with the annoying sibling.

I think she persist because you will listen to it for 2 hours.

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial

I'd also have cancelled the trip. I'd feel bad about inviting friends then cancelling on them though, because it isn't their fault.

I probably wouldn't be making a trip to the sprayground in any big hurry either. AND, when I did, it'd just be my own kids, and I'd remind her how she behaved the last time you tried to invite a friend.

I agree with this. I think it's appropriate for there to be a consequence beyond canceling the trip for this. Her threatening to be mean to J if she didn't get her way would have been a BIG deal in my house. We definitely wouldn't try again the next day, and when we got together with those friends again, I'd be watching her like a hawk to make sure she wasn't unkind.

FWIW, I think I would have drawn a much harder line than you did. I would never have apologized for inviting J (especially because you mentioned J when you asked her about it in the first place), would have shut down the conversation about ways to be mean to J, and if she didn't stop immediately, would have seen if J's mom was interested in taking my other kid with her and her kids to the sprayground while R and I stayed home and cleaned or something. If she started harassing me about missing out, she'd be sent to her room until she dropped it. I would rather have my kid crying because she's upset about not getting her way than have another kid crying because my kid was cruel to her.

[littlest birds]

I think I would have proposed very early that there were two possible outcomes: Either we would decide that we planned to treat the other person with kindness OR we would decide that we would not have the outing.

I would want to be certain to describe these clearly and say nothing else about it. If she went for choice #1 I would talk about how we would treat her. Honestly I'd go light and simple on describing feelings and add it as comments afterwards rather than use it to convince. IMO no convincing needs to happen in a situation like this. I have a special needs son who does not get empathy and social interaction so I have learned to be very direct and keep in the terms he can get when navigating. After the course we are taking is clear we may talk about feelings as well and what made the decision important and meaningful.

I would also make it a point to talk very much about Riley's feelings. Find out what made her want to exclude the other child. Even if you don't agree with her reasons try not to talk her out of them and let her know you see what she means. If you want her to consider others' feelings it helps to go out of the way to consider hers as well. I'd treat her reasons as legitimate while also being 100% firm on which courses of behavior are acceptable. Don't change the original options based on her reasons. But do think about and respond to what she says without trying to control her opinions.

You are definitely not in the wrong.

[minkin03]

Originally Posted by nola79

Oh my goodness, do we have the same child?? Seriously, my ds drives me CRAZY with the nonstop arguing, trying to bargain, etc. I have my fill of it after about 10 minutes, maybe less. No, I think you did the right thing. I dealt with a similar situation yesterday, and I did the same thing.

same here! lol