Parenting Agreement Help/Feedback

[Phoenix~Mama]

I will likely post the full thing once I'm done to get feedback... but I've hit a stumbling block, that I'd like some feedback on.

I'm pretty sure STBX won't agree to this idea... but I'd like to try.

Easter/Christmas
We have agreed that it serves the children’s best interest to have the wake-up/magic moments of these holidays at their primary residence at least until 5 years of age. STBX is welcome and encouraged to arrive at JSMa’s residence at 7:00 am on Easter/Christmas morning to share and take part in the holiday festivities.

In addition, it is agreed that STBX will give money towards the Easter/Christmas gifts and all gifts from the combined funds will be labeled from Easter Bunny/Santa. If STBX and JSMa wish to get one personal gift from just themselves, they may do so in addition to the combined gifs.
~~~~

I know the standard here has switching at noon on the holiday and it reverses every other year as to where the child wakes up... but I know DSD had a horrid time with that, and STBX and her Mom made their own thing up after the first year and seeing how rough it was on DSD.

They currently follow that every other year a parent gets DSD the night before Christmas Eve, and that parent then treats Christmas Eve as their Christmas Day. Pick-up at 7:00 pm.

I had told STBX when we first split up that this schedule will not work for me as I hold lowest senority in my department at work and will never be able to get off for Christmas Eve.

My other thoughts are, I don't beleive a child should get two holidays. I know that isn't always the popular opinion. But I have seen first hand the promotion of greed and entitlement this sort of thing has promoted to DSD. Not to mention the "oh I already have that at so-and-so's house" or "so-and-so got me way better gifts" or "I got way more presents at so-and-so's house."

In my little idealistic mind... I'd rather come together and keep one holiday, one set of presents.

And yes I realize this could mean STBX bringing a GF or new wife... and I am totally okay with that.

Not to mention I have also seen the anxiety it created for DSD, "but how will Santa find me? It's not Christmas yet..." And then the bragging to all her friends how Santa visited her twice. And her cousins and friends in non-blended situation are like, huh?

So I think it spoils some of the magic too... I can't help but think this will tune a kid into not beleiving in Santa earlier, and it killing some of the childhood innocence. (yes I know not everyone does the Santa thing, but our family does like the childhood wonder around it. )

Hmm... yeah... so feedback?

[Bad Mama Jama]

i understand exactly what you are saying. i don't have this visitation issue as my ex is MIA. however during the last year that he was around, we had a similar agreement as he agreed that his presents were also from Santa. for the record, i don't think i have ever given her a Christmas present from myself. we agreed that the gifts were all from a magical source. nevermind the fact that he failed to show up. that my friends is a different matter altogether.

i do believe in trying to preserve that innocence for as long as possible. it is important that they have a sense of normalcy even when the conditions don't lend themselves to such. good luck in crafting this thing, but it sounds as though you're headed in the right direction indeed.

[StephandOwen]

I think in a perfect world this sounds great. In the real world, however... not so great.

What happens when ex gets a new gf/wife? What if new gf/wife doesn't want to come to her husbands's ex's house on holidays? What if they have a kid together and they want that kid to be able to wake up on those special mornings in his/her house?

How much would each of you put towards gifts? What if one person ends up paying for 90% of the gifts and the other only 10%. Would you be okay putting his name on all gifts if you paid for almost all of them? What if you saw him blowing his money on other things he didn't need but he refused to give you more than $5 towards christmas gift money?

So... yeah. It sounds great, but because of the last 6 years dealing with my ex I'm a bit of a pessimist It could work in some situations though!

[doubledutch]

if i didn't know anything about your stbx, i'd think, "sure, maybe that could work, if both parents are reasonable and mature and willing to put their child first." but considering what i do know, no way, i don't think it would work out.

btw, i grew up doing christmas eve with my mom (and stockings / santa present early - early - xmas morning) and then getting on the bus to spend christmas day with my dad and his extended family, three hours away (until my dad moved, then i would get on a plane and fly across the country on christmas morning). i do remember saying how great it was that i got to do christmas twice, but it wasn't about "double the presents" as gifts were very modest. it didn't ruin the magic. idk, i think it's whatever you make it, and you can't make it very magical if you're bickering with her father, or with your new partner who doesn't like your ex coming around, and what about the grandparents? are your ex-in-laws invited too?

[Ione]

I get what you're saying and want. I don't think the contributing to gifts thing is practical or enforceable. And it just another hook he can have to jerk you around.

Personally, I'd keep the custody agreement to the nuts and bolts of what/when. And try to keep the non-major "parenting decisions" out of it. Because they won't really hold up in court if you have to resolve a conflict over them in court someday. No court will rule that he can only buy one gift from himself and the others must come from Santa.

With DD, she does all of Christmas break with her dad every other year. She and I celebrate Christmas when she gets back from her dad's on years she's with him. But, at my house, Santa only fills stockings. Bigger gifts are from people.

Don't know what my ex does, exactly. Not my problem. I've told DD that basically Santa's magic only works if everyone believes, and that he has to adjust to whatever people believe in different households. Works for her. She's 7 and a half now.

Yeah, for me it sucks being without her every other year, especially since I'm also stuck alone waiting for her over the holidays until she's old enough to travel alone. But the lack of trying to fit conflicting Christmas styles and multiple households into one short period of a couple of days works for her.

[sparklefairy]

Given your relationship with your ex, I would not have it on paper that he has a right to be in your home.

[Bad Mama Jama]

sidebar: all bets for maintaining normalcy are off if the person is emotionally or physically abusive. must mention that. but the agreement otherwise takes to sensible people to come to an agreement and stick to it. it is almost impossible if both parties are not aligned.

and in terms of having the new gf or wife come by to celebrate, it truly depends. the OP was saying until the age of 5 for the children. so, who knows when or if the new gf or wife will come into play by then?

[Phoenix~Mama]

Originally Posted by StephandOwen

I think in a perfect world this sounds great. In the real world, however... not so great.

What happens when ex gets a new gf/wife? What if new gf/wife doesn't want to come to her husbands's ex's house on holidays? What if they have a kid together and they want that kid to be able to wake up on those special mornings in his/her house?

How much would each of you put towards gifts? What if one person ends up paying for 90% of the gifts and the other only 10%. Would you be okay putting his name on all gifts if you paid for almost all of them? What if you saw him blowing his money on other things he didn't need but he refused to give you more than $5 towards christmas gift money?

So... yeah. It sounds great, but because of the last 6 years dealing with my ex I'm a bit of a pessimist It could work in some situations though!

These are really great questions!

Yes, I do realize that could mean a new GF/wife coming, and I'm okay with that. If she isn't... um, well it's her problem. And her and STBX can figure that out.

STBX is supposed to be going for a vasectomy because his limit was actually 2 kids, and now #3 is on the way.

I know he won't like this majorly because he will wonder where DSD fits into all of this... but I know DSD's Mom and her Aunt and Uncle have a ton of big celebrations every Christmas... STBX's family is just like him, which encompasses a whole lot of UA violations.

So, really, I have a hard time thinking any of his kids should have to endure time around his UAV family. I think if he cared about his kids at all, he'd be the one making some sacrifices for a change and coming and spending time with his kids in the families that truely love them and care for them. Not at his Mom's who neglected her grandkids for over two years and only now has them in her life because her son came crawling back home.

But anyway... yes I realize that STBX isn't rational. Or I wouldn't be in this situation to begin with... but I have to try.

Oh, and as far as the gifts? BTDT. The first Christmas we were together he didn't have any money for DSD and I bought the majority of her gifts at his house and I put either Santa or both or names on it. (Note that I'd rather put from Santa on everything... but STBX in his awesome UAV-ness says "I'm not letting some fictional fat guy take all the credit for my hard work all year to provide for my kids." No, I'm not kidding you, STBX needs that much affirmation about what a "great" Dad and provider he is. :Puke )

Yeah, so if he didn't contribute anything, I honestly don't care. I've come to expect this from him. And yes I'm sure I'd see him in new outfits and shoes with his bonus money in Decemeber, or more new fish... but he couldn't possibly give money to his kids. No surprise... #1 arguments for us is his self-entitlement and lack of priorities to his family.

Originally Posted by Bad Mama Jama

sidebar: all bets for maintaining normalcy are off if the person is emotionally or physically abusive. must mention that. but the agreement otherwise takes to sensible people to come to an agreement and stick to it. it is almost impossible if both parties are not aligned.

A good point too...

Though, I've already been told by numerous authorities locally that STBX "isn't abusive enough", meaning he has never physically hit any of us. And there are no dependancy issues to any substances.

So to the courts/law, I have to basically treat this as "normal" and be all open and flexible and promote the child/father relationship, or I will just look like the crazy, bitter ex-wife who wants to keep her ex away from his own kids at all costs. *sighs*

I'm really between a rock and a hard place.

[Ione]

First, you are between a rock and a hard place. And it sucks. But it will be OK.

That said, I just want to re-iterate my advice on the parenting plan more coherently.

Go ahead and include anything/everything you want in a draft. Then, take the time with your lawyer to go over it line by line and evaluate whether or not it is actually and practically enforceable by the courts. And whether or not (best guess) the courts would enforce it 5+ plus years down the line should it come to that.

Then, eliminate or re-write (depending on what is needed) the not-enforceable parts so that 100% of the final proposed plan is fully enforceable by the courts and as likely as possible to be enforced by the courts.

You don't want anything in there that can't or won't be enforced by the court. That's just a sure-fire way to increase stress, conflict and legal fees.

Then, go over it with a fine-tooth comb to make sure that there is NO ambiguity anywhere. (e.g. If you opt for something like 1st, 3rd and 5th weekends, for him make sure the plan spells out how weekends are counted. For ex. if his time goes from Friday p.m. to Sunday p.m. and the last day of the month falls on a Saturday, is it the 5th weekend of Friday's month, or the 1st weekend of Saturday's month? Or, if you have a ROFR clause, make sure it specifies what triggers it, when the offer must be made, if it excludes daycare for the purposes of work, etc.)

You want something extremely clear and NOT open to interpretation. Otherwise, he's just going to have a way to mess with your head and the parenting play by systematically interpreting things in the way that causes you the most stress, and jerks you around the most.

To give yourselves the flexibility you need, you can state separately in the agreement something along the lines of: "Recognizing that flexibility may at times be appropriate to accommodate special events, the parties may deviate from this parenting plan/schedule if needed but only upon mutual agreement. Wherever possible, agreed deviations shall be confirmed in writing by letter or email. Instances of mutually-agreed deviations from this parenting plan/schedule shall not be construed to imply future agreement for similar deviations unless specifically stated as such and confirmed in writing."... (Your lawyer would have to fine-tune that, I'm sure.)

Does that make any sense?

[Phoenix~Mama]

It does make sense, Ione. Thank you. I do have a flex clause in it already.


And actually I'm gearing this agreement to the toddler years. With another clause that says the agreement is to be re-visited each year to modify anything not working, and for developmental changes etc.

I have seen several outlines online that work like this. I just can't imagine having one set agreement from the time the child is born until they are 18.

Obviously just in the next 5 years needs/visitation will change drastically due to the kids growing up. lol

It seems most agreements out there are geared to at least school aged kids, which makes it very irrelevant to my situation.

STBX has actually worked well with coming up with modifications with his 1st ex.... I don't know why he likes to screw with me so much.

Basically this agreement is a sort of jumping point. It won't go to court unless he becomes ridiculous, and then it will definitely be evaluated closer for things that definitely won't be enforced.

[VocalMinority]

Get over the idea of combined gifts. If you're raising kids separately, the kids simply are going to have different possessions and different gifts at the two houses and they're going to be compared and you can't escape that. Accept it and stop trying to fix that. You can't have your cake (getting away from your STBX) and eat it, too. There are going to be draw-backs.

My ex has been kind enough to let me have each Christmas and Easter morning and I've always invited him and his family over and it's been just fine. His wife has always come (and her Mom, too!), but I did not invite his live-in GF (before the wife). I knew he wasn't going to marry her and I did not want to participate in my kids getting attached to her like a step-mom and then having her disappear from their lives, which is exactly what happened. She wasn't family - not because I didn't like her - but because my ex chose not to make her so. And our Christmas mornings were for family. Amazingly, this also did not cause a big problem!

Good luck.

[Ione]

Originally Posted by JSMa

And actually I'm gearing this agreement to the toddler years. With another clause that says the agreement is to be re-visited each year to modify anything not working, and for developmental changes etc.

NO! He could claim something "isn't working" (even when it is) every year and spend tons of time jerking you around. Even if he doesn't want changes.

At most, have a clause that says that the agreement will be re-visited, if needed with 3rd-party mediation, when the youngest joint child enters full-day school.

If something truly isn't working and you can come to an agreement outside the courts, you always have the option of filing a stipulated amendment. But DO NOT make doing so a yearly *requirement*.

And if you can't agree on a change, you can always go back to court even without that clause.

Especially if you have a 'flexibility' clause in there already.

Ask your lawyer what she thinks, of course. And it's just my personal opinion... so grain of salt and all that.

[Phoenix~Mama]

That's a good point. I was thinking a year may be too much, and was only using that as a base off of what I had found online. I think 3-5 years is more realistic. And there is a whole section of what happens if something can't be agreed upon. Starting with counsel from appropriate professional resources.

I found a lot of good stuff online yesterday. lol

Actually, maybe gearing this one to be "set" until at least school age isn't a bad idea at all... I know some of the holiday visitation schedule wording is basically geared towards that anyway.


And Jeannine, I agree... the gift sharing isn't a hill I'm going to die on for sure and I don't have an issue nixxing it. I guess I'd just like to get away from the ultimate consumerism attitude some. I mean really, I saw DSD get mounds (at least 20 gifts) from serveral different houses. It equalled to at least 120 some presents just for Christmas each year combined between all her houses. It made me want to :Puke I just really don't want to raise my kids like that.

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by JSMa

And Jeannine, I agree... the gift sharing isn't a hill I'm going to die on for sure and I don't have an issue nixxing it. I guess I'd just like to get away from the ultimate consumerism attitude some. I mean really, I saw DSD get mounds (at least 20 gifts) from serveral different houses. It equalled to at least 120 some presents just for Christmas each year combined between all her houses. It made me want to :Puke I just really don't want to raise my kids like that.

Unfortunately this is one of those things you won't have much control over. You can control how many gifts she gets from you and your family, but that's about it. You can also control how many gifts come into your house. When ds was younger (age 1ish) we had a heck of a time with ex's parents wanting to buy him loads of "stuff" for Christmas and his birthday. It wasn't even things he had any interest in, it was stuff they WANTED him to have an interest in. Since I can't really control how much they give him I was at a loss. Finally I put my foot down and told them they were welcome to buy him pretty much anything (except the few things I have issues with- such as toy guns/weapons) BUT that he could only bring 2 items (of his choosing) back to my house (and all clothes could come back to my house). That first Christmas I made that rule he had TONS of stuff left behind at ex's parents house. Which he never played with, because he never went over there (because they smoke and he isn't allowed in any house that has smoking, per a court order). I think they finally got it at that point. Now they buy him some clothes (sometimes), a couple books (we also do unlimited books can come home) and maybe a toy or two. Last Christmas it was some clothes, books and a railroad crossing bank. Very reasonable

When we moved here dp's parents started up on the "let's buy Owen everything under the sun" crap. Last Christmas I finally put my foot down with them and told them that only clothes and books plus 2 toys of ds's choosing would be coming back to our house. Everything else was to stay at their house. He got a lot of clothes and books but very few toys They also have the option of putting money in his bank account, which they do (actually I think they buy cd's or bonds or something for him).

Thankfully my parents are reasonable (maybe 2-3 gifts from each of my parents- they are divorced).

[Phoenix~Mama]

Originally Posted by StephandOwen

Unfortunately this is one of those things you won't have much control over. You can control how many gifts she gets from you and your family, but that's about it. You can also control how many gifts come into your house. When ds was younger (age 1ish) we had a heck of a time with ex's parents wanting to buy him loads of "stuff" for Christmas and his birthday. It wasn't even things he had any interest in, it was stuff they WANTED him to have an interest in. Since I can't really control how much they give him I was at a loss. Finally I put my foot down and told them they were welcome to buy him pretty much anything (except the few things I have issues with- such as toy guns/weapons) BUT that he could only bring 2 items (of his choosing) back to my house (and all clothes could come back to my house). That first Christmas I made that rule he had TONS of stuff left behind at ex's parents house. Which he never played with, because he never went over there (because they smoke and he isn't allowed in any house that has smoking, per a court order). I think they finally got it at that point. Now they buy him some clothes (sometimes), a couple books (we also do unlimited books can come home) and maybe a toy or two. Last Christmas it was some clothes, books and a railroad crossing bank. Very reasonable

When we moved here dp's parents started up on the "let's buy Owen everything under the sun" crap. Last Christmas I finally put my foot down with them and told them that only clothes and books plus 2 toys of ds's choosing would be coming back to our house. Everything else was to stay at their house. He got a lot of clothes and books but very few toys They also have the option of putting money in his bank account, which they do (actually I think they buy cd's or bonds or something for him).

Thankfully my parents are reasonable (maybe 2-3 gifts from each of my parents- they are divorced).

That's a good idea! Thanks! We have the same philosophy on gifts it seems.

[VocalMinority]

Originally Posted by JSMa

the gift sharing isn't a hill I'm going to die on...I'd just like to get away from the ultimate consumerism attitude some. I mean really, I saw DSD get mounds (at least 20 gifts) from serveral different houses. It equalled to at least 120 some presents just for Christmas each year combined between all her houses. It made me want to :Puke I just really don't want to raise my kids like that.

Coming off a round of unprecedentedly lavish birthday gifts for our kids, I TOTALLY agree with you! But once you're divorced, you only have control over some percentage of how your kids are raised. How tolerable or aggravating that is depends in large part on how much your STBX is willing to work with you and focus on the best interest of your daughter.

How it CAN work: My ex has vastly more money than I do, so it's unavoidable that the kids have more - and higher-quality - things at his house than they do at mine. For example, I can't keep track of how often they upgrade their video game machines over there, or just buy a different brand-name system because they want to try out new games. HOWEVER:

- The kids honestly do understand that the Game Cube we bought them and replaced YEARS later with a Wii are special; that is was a BIG DEAL for us to provide them; and that the kids need to take care of them so they'll last.

- My ex works with me, if I coordinate with him about special gifts. I used a free upgrade on our cell phone contract to give the twins a neat phone to share. ("Neat" as in colorful and gimmicky, but no internet or keyboards or touch screens...) The twins were REALLY excited about it and I asked my ex and his wife not to outshine me by giving them iPhones, even though I knew they could afford to. Thankfully, my ex gets that the experience of me giving them a special gift and using, enjoying and appreciating it can be more important than having the latest and the best new thing.

- We do pool money, on occasion. When the twins got old enough (and I was using our family computer for work so much) that it was justifiable to get them a separate computer, I was looking for used ones in the classifieds. When I discussed it with my ex, he insisted on buying them a new iMac for my house - which was much nicer than the computer they had at his house, at the time. That was a Christmas gift from "all" of us (parents and step-parents), even though my ex paid for it alone.

[pinksprklybarefoot]

Here are a few thoughts... Let me preface this by saying that you *know* that I am on your side and totally supportive of you. I know that you have the best intentions with this. But it just might not be realistic. I also totally get the wanting to avoid consumerism. DSD is so used to getting presents that she really doesn't get excited about them.

First off, the gift thing could get really complicated. Who chooses the gifts? Who chooses the amount of money spent on Christmas gifts? Is it better to get one or two nice gifts, or a lot of little gifts (people have vastly different theories on this one). Which house gets which gifts? What if you re-partner and want to get the kids a large shared gift, like a wooden play kitchen? Is STBX going to want to contribute to a gift for the other guy's kids? Are presents from Santa wrapped? What about stocking presents? I could see you guys spending a lot of energy arguing about this.

Second, what is to stop him from having a second "Christmas" the first weekend he has her after Christmas to give her whatever it was you didn't want her to have? He might do it just to spite you. He could call it something else, but it would be like a second Christmas. Heck, he might do it the weekend before Christmas just to take the excitement away from you. Maybe the "Holiday Fairy" will visit his house, and Santa will be kind of boring compared to that. There are ways to get around your rules.

Also, one of the things that I have noticed with DSD (who does get excited about Santa) is that the magic and excitement really did not happen until she was five. She just didn't "get" it until then. I have pictures of her at three, terrified of her stocking, looking at it like a ticking bomb.

As far as spending Christmas morning together, it sounds nice, but the reality of it is that it will probably be stressful for everyone, including your kids. So many things can affect this situation. Let's go over a possible scenario:

Say you and STBX spent two weeks fighting about gifts before you are supposed to get together for Christmas morning. The tension is going to completely permeate your kids' Christmas.

Let's say that you re-partner. You have also just spent the past few weeks arguing with him because his traditions with his kids (as far as gifts go) do not match the amount of money pooled/strange batch of gifts that you and your ex finally agreed on. How is he going to feel about your abusive former husband being in your shared home? He might feel protective of you and suspicious of your ex. More tension.

Let's say that your new partner's child wanted a Zootabababot, the really expensive, plastic, noisy hot toy of this Christmas, but since you just spent two weeks convincing your ex that you will not be buying one for Kallie with shared funds, he can't buy one for his child. Because Kallie wants one, but you are fundamentally opposed to it because it is a scantily-clad animatronic hamster with no educational value.

Let's say STBX is re-partnered, and she is just one in a string of girlfriends, but she doesn't know that. She is annoyed at having to pack up her kids and bring them to your house on Christmas, and doesn't understand why you are not making more of an effort to get to know her (Why bother? She'll be gone in a month.). So she is sullen with you and snapping at your ex for making her come. Her kids are crabby because they had to leave behind their gift from Santa (a Zootabababot), which was too big to bring along. And now they have to sit around and watch other kids open presents, which is hard for children to do. More tension.

Your ex brings out his one allowed personal gift. No wonder he didn't have any money for shared gifts - he just dropped $200 on a Zootabababot for Kallie. Your new partner's child is in tears - why didn't Santa know that she wanted a Zootabababot?

Then maybe your (former) DSD's mom drops by to bring DSD because they are doing the switch on Christmas morning. She is annoyed because your STBX didn't tell her until the last minute that he would be at your house, and she and your ex's new girlfriend do NOT get along. Her new boyfriend and kids are with, and DSD is throwing a fit because one of the new boyfriend's DDs is her age, they are BFFs and she doesn't want to go with her dad. After they leave, she refuses to speak to anyone. More tension.

Then your new partner's ex comes by to pick up her child, and she is annoyed because he used to spend Christmas morning at her house, and now he won't even drop the kids off with her. So she had to get up on Christmas morning to go pick them up, including bundling up her brand new nursling who *hates* the car seat. She comes in, baby screaming, grabs her kids (still upset about the Zootabababot), slams the door and leaves. She wanted to get the kid a Zootabababot, but her ex refused to contribute and she just couldn't swing it as a single mom without some help. But since you, the new partner said "no," now her kid's Christmas is ruined because of you. She is really resentful that you have somehow taken over her holiday.

When it is all said and done, you and your new partner realize that in all of this, your little family did not get to spend any time together, and your little family is having trouble creating your own norms and traditions because of all of the craziness at every holiday.

What if your DSD's mom had put a similar clause in their parenting agreement? Would you have wanted to schlep Kallie over to her house on Christmas morning, or would the two of you have been arguing over which child he should "choose" for Christmas?

Something that is a good idea in theory can quickly turn into a bad one in reality.

In our situation, establishing traditions as a family was really important. Shared holidays make that difficult. We share Halloween every year, for example. At this point, DH wants to change that because she is (in theory) re-partnered, and he doesn't want to spend this Halloween at their house. He would rather just switch off every other year so we can do things how our family does things, not a combination of how we do things + how DSD's mom does things + how DSD's BF and his ex-wife did things. It is just getting too complicated.

Just a few thoughts. Good luck today - I hope the baby isn't shy.

[Phoenix~Mama]

Thanks for that lovely nightmare scenario, Pink. lol But because it's from you, and I know it's straight from love and half BTDT experience, it's all good.

Lots to think about I guess.

The part that stood out to me, was the the schleping a nursling who HATES the car seat out on Christmas...

DD was like that. For like the first 6-8 months she'd SCREAM the WHOLE car ride anywhere, no matter if the car ride was 5 minutes or 40 minutes. It was heart wrenchingly painful for me.

So obviously, this year is not a good year for him to have Christmas morning or me taking the one month old anywhere. *shudders at the thought*

Next year... I have to admit is part of my own having a very hard time letting go... it will be my new baby's first "real" Christmas where they will be up and opening presents mostly on their own. I think of how DD was this Christmas and it was just so incredibly cute!!

Of course, I could see that with my own Christmas I suppose... but it's annoying/and a slew of other emotions to think that every other year I'll be "second", kwim?

And it brings back me being so incredibly mad at myself for picking such a UAV Dad for my kids that they are going to have to deal with this shuffling crap for their entire lives. And that they will never know a "normal" Christmas.

What are some suggestions on what to do with real tiny kids?

[Ione]

That kind of nightmare scenario is exactly why I tend to think alternating whole holidays... ie one parent has all of Xmas (eve and day) on even years and the other on odd years... is the best way to go. Because it's so cut-and-dry and has much less scope for drama built automatically into it. And it cuts down on the holiday stress for kids from shuffling homes/holiday approaches/etc. within a very short period of a few days... And it makes organizing stuff with extended family easier--each parent has a full holiday period every other year to travel to family gatherings, or whatever.

If everyone's getting along and working well together, you ALWAYS have the option of inviting the other parent over for all/part of "your holiday". And they can do the same for you on "their year".

[violet_]

PinkSparkly nailed that one. That's exactly the kind of drama that could ensue.

And I think this is the kind of thing that only sounds like a good idea when you are still halfway in and halfway out. As you move on, you may feel differently about including your ex at all. Yes, it sucks to have to alternate big holidays, but that's just par for the course. And when you and your stbx are no longer a family unit, you may not want to model that former family unit for the kids. When you start a family with someone else, you will probably want to model a strong family unit that way with your children, rather than having to entertain your ex and his issues every holiday.