Excellent health of a mother doesn't guarantee/ increase her chances to have a healthy baby? - Page 3

[CI Mama]

I thought your original questions were good ones, basically asking about how we should think about risk when it comes to child birth. Your original questions focused on risk, and so that is where the conversation has gone.

Now you are asking (I think) about things that a mother can do to have a better birth experience/outcome. I see that as a different question.

But, to tie both conversations together, I would say that preparing for birth has both a physical & an emotional component. A big part of the emotional preparation is to figure out how we want to think about and deal with the risks, unknowns, and lack of guarantees that birth presents.

One option, of course, is to deny that they exist and/or to try to control everything in hopes that nothing bad will happen. I agree with PPs that this approach does not ultimately serve women or children well. Those who are sharing their perspective have earned it at great cost and I believe are sharing their POV from a sincere wish to spare someone else the pain caused by the "deny/control" approach.

I am sorry that you see that perspective as "negative".

Another way to approach risk, unknowns, and lack of guarantees is to face them, to learn about them, and to learn from those who have survived the harshest realities that they present. I suppose that if all one does for birth preparation is to focus on the worst case scenarios, that's not helpful. But I would say that a well-rounded preparation would consider both the best possible outcomes and the worst ones...and a lot in between...and would include some thought about how to manage a variety of situations that might arise, including some un-ideal ones.

I'd also add that when I was preparing for birth, I was overwhelmed by the number of things to think about, and there didn't seem to be enough time to process and prepare for everything. For me there was a definite leap of faith...the realization that no matter how much I prepared or what I tried to anticipate, ready or not the moment would come and birth would happen. Surrender has been a big part of my journey, before, during, and after the fact.

[MsBlack]

Since it's about UC at base, I'll return to my earliest statement: for mom to be pro-active in achieving/maintaining excellent health--and for her to have full emotional support from her partner in this--is the closest thing to a guarantee that we get, when it comes to birth. Yes, your chances of a healthy baby and healthy birth/pp time are greatly enhanced by taking excellent care of yourself--with confidence in yourself and the process, working through any fears as you go, becoming more informed about 'good signs and bad signs' of birth/baby--and willing to get help if it turns out you or baby do need it.

And Olstep--not to pretend I know you all that well (and certainly nothing about your partner/home situation), but as a UC mom, grandmom and general UC supporter/observer for lo these many years, from what I've 'seen' of you here on MDC...I'd say you are an excellent candidate for UC, attitude-wise, general-mindset-wise, self-confidence-wise.

Not that you asked for my assessment!
And not that anyone gets any guarantees in this life.

[bandgeek]

I was mostly healthy and my child had significant brain damage from oxygen deprivation sometime in the womb or during birth (we don't know when). The only issue I had was constant sickness (as I did with my first...actually worse with him and he's healthy). It did prevent me from eating the healthiest, but I gained an acceptable amount of weight. Otherwise no pregnancy complications.

Cord accidents can happen to ANYONE. And you aren't necessarily able to intervene in time even if you check yourself with a doppler every 10 minutes of your pregnancy.

[wombatclay]

~~~~~~~~~Moderator Moment~~~~~~~~

Heyla!

Several posts have been removed to bring this thread back on topic and within the MDC User Agreement Guidelines. Please review the User Agreement and then your post prior to hitting the "submit" button so that we can keep the information and discussion provided by this thread on the boards!

If you have ANY questions or concerns about the thread, or about individual posts on the thread, please contact a moderator via the "report" button.

Thank you! And a big "Thank You" for taking the time and effort to share your experiences in a gentle, responsible, and respectful manner. It's members like you that help us keep MDC both informative and welcoming.

~~~~~~~~~~~~now back to the thread~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[JTA Mom]

Originally Posted by olstep

I did not mean to touch the painful subjects like stillbirth or miscarriage.
The only intention I had was to hear some encouragement that one can kind of prepare herself to have a positive outcome.
I am tempted to go UCed but find it difficult to block my brain that tells me that it may be unsafe.
I do not argue that things happen no matter how hard we try (in childbirth or life in general) but fatalism is not my philosophy. I do believe that we have responsibility and certain control for what happens in our lives.

It is not fatalism to see that in the aspect of pregnancy/birth, we really have very little control on outcome. You can eat supremely healthy, be healthy, active, etc, and still have a bad outcome. Can you increase your chances of a healthy birth/baby/etc? Sure. But we're talking about statistics, and well, with statistics, it doesn't matter that something is only a 1% chance if you happen to BE that 1%, kwim?

The major thing my own loss taught me, is to just stay in the moment. I cannot be guaranteed that tomorrow something will happen. But right now, my baby is kicking, therefore alive, so I am happy.

Am I preparing for his/her eventual arrival? Yes, of course.

Do I expect him/her to come home with me?

That question is harder to answer. Yes, a part of me fully expects it. However, another part, the part that is all too aware of loss, tells me to also not take it as a given. That if I am so lucky, and I do mean lucky, to bring home a living, healthy baby, I should count my blessings. I do not and can never, take a good outcome as a 'done deal'.

Like I said, I have been in that 1% chance bracket before. I do realize though, that the majority of women will end up with healthy babies--how else has the human race survived and expanded to today, kwim? And I repeat that to myself.

As for you not feeling completely comfy UCing, I don't think falling into the opposite 'fatalistic' belief of 'I am healthy, therefore everything will be fine' is the answer. There are risks to birthing in a hospital as well, such as infections.

What you have to do is find your acceptable risk level. If something were to happen in the hospital--how would you feel? If something were to happen in your UC--how would you feel? What do you think you can live with? Then go from there.

Ami

[olstep]

Power of positive thinking

Originally Posted by JTA Mom

It is not fatalism to see that in the aspect of pregnancy/birth, we really have very little control on outcome. You can eat supremely healthy, be healthy, active, etc, and still have a bad outcome. Can you increase your chances of a healthy birth/baby/etc? Sure. But we're talking about statistics, and well, with statistics, it doesn't matter that something is only a 1% chance if you happen to BE that 1%, kwim?

It does matter to me whether it 1% or 10%. 1% wont' shake my belief - maybe groundless for some people - that everything is going to be fine. It is not that I do not want to see or be aware of negative outcome possibility. But for my sanity I have to put it (the negative) far back on my mind when
1)I see that chances it can happen are very low.
2) there is not much I can do to affect it.
I think our brain has very powerful impact on our live. As one of pps said excellent health is not only your physical but emotional condition as well.

I don't think falling into the opposite 'fatalistic' belief of 'I am healthy, therefore everything will be fine' is the answer.

This belief let me have or think that I have a certain control: I can do or not do a few things that will affect the result. It puts responsibility on me not fate or some unknown power. Some may call it naive or ignorant but not fatalistic.
There are times when one needs to block negative information - even the valid one - to stay in the positive mind frame. I hope that nobody will question that the last one is very important for a smooth birth.

Like you said: let's deal with one thing in a time. Pregnancy, birth, then we deal with the outcome.

[olstep]

Originally Posted by MsBlack

Not that you asked for my assessment!
And not that anyone gets any guarantees in this life.

No I did not but I appreciate it. I have sent you a PM about juridical part of UC.

[triscuitsmom]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

The advice that I would give any woman no matter which choices she is making in how and where she will labour is to be aware that there are risks and there are no guarantees. What is important is that you are able to live with the risks you choose to take.

Yes. A million times over yes.

Originally Posted by JTA Mom

The major thing my own loss taught me, is to just stay in the moment. I cannot be guaranteed that tomorrow something will happen. But right now, my baby is kicking, therefore alive, so I am happy.

Am I preparing for his/her eventual arrival? Yes, of course.

Do I expect him/her to come home with me?

That question is harder to answer. Yes, a part of me fully expects it. However, another part, the part that is all too aware of loss, tells me to also not take it as a given. That if I am so lucky, and I do mean lucky, to bring home a living, healthy baby, I should count my blessings. I do not and can never, take a good outcome as a 'done deal'.

Like I said, I have been in that 1% chance bracket before. I do realize though, that the majority of women will end up with healthy babies--how else has the human race survived and expanded to today, kwim? And I repeat that to myself.

As for you not feeling completely comfy UCing, I don't think falling into the opposite 'fatalistic' belief of 'I am healthy, therefore everything will be fine' is the answer. There are risks to birthing in a hospital as well, such as infections.

What you have to do is find your acceptable risk level. If something were to happen in the hospital--how would you feel? If something were to happen in your UC--how would you feel? What do you think you can live with? Then go from there.

Ami

I totally agree with this too.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by olstep

It does matter to me whether it 1% or 10%. 1% wont' shake my belief - maybe groundless for some people - that everything is going to be fine. It is not that I do not want to see or be aware of negative outcome possibility. But for my sanity I have to put it (the negative) far back on my mind when
1)I see that chances it can happen are very low.
2) there is not much I can do to affect it.
I think our brain has very powerful impact on our live. As one of pps said excellent health is not only your physical but emotional condition as well.



This belief let me have or think that I have a certain control: I can do or not do a few things that will affect the result. It puts responsibility on me not fate or some unknown power. Some may call it naive or ignorant but not fatalistic.
There are times when one needs to block negative information - even the valid one - to stay in the positive mind frame. I hope that nobody will question that the last one is very important for a smooth birth.

Like you said: let's deal with one thing in a time. Pregnancy, birth, then we deal with the outcome.

Olstep, I'm really not arguing with you.

I just want you to know that as someone for whom things went really, really wrong, the worst regrets I have are the points at which I did not ask questions about risk and where I too made the decision not to worry about the 1%. I went into my daughter's labour really quite sure that as a strong and healthy mother we would be fine. I wish that I had dispensed with that idea a little earlier...I don't especially blame myself in that way, because I just didn't know. And when I had a few concerns, I dismissed them as negativity.

I guess, gently, I sort of think if you have to put things out of your mind for your own sanity -- and I don't mean not dwelling on them, which isn't necessarily good, but just making a decision based on "well that just won't happen" -- you could be at risk for a harsh experience. The risk is still small, of course. But your original thread title and question was pretty absolute. I hope the discussion has helped.

[laohaire]

fatalism = the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable

Excellent health of mother guaranteeing (inevitible result) healthy baby = fatalistic

[MsBlack]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

Olstep, I'm really not arguing with you.

I just want you to know that as someone for whom things went really, really wrong, the worst regrets I have are the points at which I did not ask questions about risk and where I too made the decision not to worry about the 1%. I went into my daughter's labour really quite sure that as a strong and healthy mother we would be fine. I wish that I had dispensed with that idea a little earlier...I don't especially blame myself in that way, because I just didn't know. And when I had a few concerns, I dismissed them as negativity.

I guess, gently, I sort of think if you have to put things out of your mind for your own sanity -- and I don't mean not dwelling on them, which isn't necessarily good, but just making a decision based on "well that just won't happen" -- you could be at risk for a harsh experience. The risk is still small, of course. But your original thread title and question was pretty absolute. I hope the discussion has helped.

When I had my UCs (well really also including my dr-attended hb and mw attended one, too), I prepared for all eventualities, informing myself as much as possible about risks, and 'what to do IF such and such happens'. I had hospital back up plans, and named people for specific roles in case of transport (watch the other kids, help me communicate w/hosp staff, etc).

Then I put it out of my mind, feeling I'd done all I could to prepare, to be aware of and prepared for 'negative eventualities'. No point in further consideration--time to fully commit to my dream-birth with confidence. After 5 healthy happy homebirths, 3 of them UC, my last baby/intended UC became a transfer and eventual csec. I did not go into that birth any differently w/respect to prep and confidence, etc, and putting the risks out of my mind. And I did go into that birth ready, as ever, to deal with the reality that presented itself; was freely able to see that that reality was not conducive to UC (signs during labor), took myself to hospital. And I had a csec after more hours of labor there, by my OWN call--doc was willing to wait longer but I just knew it was needed and I was right. I add that being a mw helped in some respects--but for that csec call, it was, and could only have been (given mine/baby's issues that were not clear even w/internal monitor and all the rest) a purely *mother-instinctive* choice.

Just saying--putting the risks out of your mind does not mean pretending it can't/won't happen. It does mean choosing to focus attention, and one's power, on birthing normally and with awareness.

But you are right, GuildJenn--olstep's question was pretty absolute!

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by MsBlack

Just saying--putting the risks out of your mind does not mean pretending it can't/won't happen. It does mean choosing to focus attention, and one's power, on birthing normally and with awareness.

But you are right, GuildJenn--olstep's question was pretty absolute!

I think you're good to share your perspective.

But with all respect, having a c-section and getting a healthy baby is still a completely different outcome than having your baby die. When your baby dies and all you're left with is empty arms, that's when your choices truly come back to haunt you. Most women will not experience that, fortunately.

In my case I did not have a magical awareness of the cord around my daughter's neck; I don't think this is because I was lacking in connection or self-awareness but it was because I was not a professional and wasn't able to assess the difference between 'normal' labour fear/pain/effort and anything else.

I was coached by the women around me to trust labour and trust my body, from pre-birth classes right up to where my daughter's heart stopped and - that was a mistake. I will never 'just' focus on the positive again -- and not in a fearful and negative way, but because I have a better understanding of the finer points of biology and physics.

I think both perspectives are important, particularly when someone asks.

[Quinalla]

All you can do is lower the risk of birth complications, you can never eliminate them completely. That is why it is so important to be informed on how risky certain things are so you can make informed choices. Well, actually you can eliminate your risk by never getting pregnant, but that sort of misses the point!

[MsBlack]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

I think you're good to share your perspective.

But with all respect, having a c-section and getting a healthy baby is still a completely different outcome than having your baby die. When your baby dies and all you're left with is empty arms, that's when your choices truly come back to haunt you. Most women will not experience that, fortunately.

In my case I did not have a magical awareness of the cord around my daughter's neck; I don't think this is because I was lacking in connection or self-awareness but it was because I was not a professional and wasn't able to assess the difference between 'normal' labour fear/pain/effort and anything else.

I was coached by the women around me to trust labour and trust my body, from pre-birth classes right up to where my daughter's heart stopped and - that was a mistake. I will never 'just' focus on the positive again -- and not in a fearful and negative way, but because I have a better understanding of the finer points of biology and physics.

I think both perspectives are important, particularly when someone asks.

I agree, both perspectives are important!

Maybe it wasn't obvious from my last post--but there *were* signs that brought me to the hospital for my last birth. Yes, in the end when choosing a csec, it was more a matter of instinctive knowing...but that knowing was certainly informed by some pretty clear signs. Signs a parent could see for herself at home w/out monitoring, and even more signs at the hospital. But the doc, I guess, did not see those signs *yet* as life-threatening or contra-indicating vag delivery...it was my instinct that went there, sooner than the doc was able to since he was only relying on the rational/quantitative interpretation of signs that med technologies could generate.

If those kinds of signs are not apparent to the casual observer during labor (such as meconium), nor discovered by monitoring (whether not done, or not done carefully enough), well, that's somewhat different.

Anyway--we do agree, all perspectives are important for everyone to see in a thread like this.