Difficult news

[mbravebird]

We went to the dentist a couple of days ago after I found two cavities. My son is six. He has always had really good teeth, and we do all the nutrition stuff in the sticky too, so I was confused and concerned. It turns out that the cavities I could see were the best of the bunch. They said he needs four extractions and 8 fillings. They said they think the reason it is so bad is because of all the heavy-duty meds he's taken in the past two years. (He's had major surgery and three hospitalizations, plus six months of anti-seizure meds.) Apparently some of the meds can affect tooth enamel. Urrrrgggg.

The dentist said she could see some bone loss beneath two of the cavities.

He is in no pain. My head is spinning. I am thinking that the best thing to do is to take care of it all in the traditional way. He has severe hemophilia, so they would prefer to extract the teeth rather than do root canals.

Should I get a second opinion, or is this pretty straightforward? Should I drive for a consult with a holistic dentist? What else should I be thinking about?

[Koalamom]

Hugs mama!
I wonder if your son is still on meds if the teeth can heal?

I know how it feels to try everything and eat really careful to have a child still get cavities. Feels like a failure. Still I continue to try my hardest... Hopefull my baby will have perfect teeth.

Is your son still on meds now? Are they adult teeth? I think that if my kids were off the meds and they were baby teeth, I would wait as he will get adult teeth very soon and they may gloss over ubtil then.

Off to update your duck liver thread...

[SleeplessMommy]

i am sorry!

with hemophilia, i would get a 2nd opinion from a university dentist - or a specialized pediatric dentist. ask his medical specialist for a recommendation. after the work is done you may want to go to 3-month cleanings and exams, fluoride varnishes and try the mi paste product. you will want to keep his adult teeth in the best possible condition when they come in, especially if the meds are long term.

i would go with treatment rather than waiting, once you get the 2nd opinion. you son needs his teeth.

[JaneS]

I wish I had advice but all I can say from a traditional and holistic dental standpoint root canals are not what you want.

Have you seen the write up on the George Meinig book about Weston Price's root canal research on the PPNF site? antibiotics still cannot completely disinfect all the tubules, they will continue to harbor bacteria that effect health.

[mbravebird]

Thanks everybody. He is not on the meds anymore (well, he is on meds, but not the ones that have a known enamel side-effect). The enamel side-effects came from the heavy-duty IV antibiotics during his hospitalizations, as well as six months of anti-seizure meds. Apparently timing is everything with the antibiotics, and the anti-seizure meds affect some folks' enamel, and some folks not. So there is still hope that his underlying permanent teeth were not harmed.

My hope is that if we get the bacteria out, then his adult teeth can get a new chance. But the teeth they want to pull are molars, which mean he'll need spacers, which means a long-term bleeding risk, apparently.

Jane, I've never read the WAP writings on root canals; I'd just heard the conclusion that root canals weren't good. I'm glad to hear that he'll be avoiding them. I remember reading on the WAPF site about extractions a long time ago, and how it keeps the face from expanding to accomodate the teeth. I asked the dentist about that, which is when she mentioned the spacers. Do you think the spacers would take care of the jaw width and space for his permanent teeth, or do you really need the baby molars in place to do that?

I wonder about waiting too -- when do they lose their first molars? Am I crazy to think we could at least try to halt the decay with higher levels of K2? Could we at least keep the decay in check until he loses the teeth on his own? Sometimes I think I'm crazy, sometimes I think it's reasonable. I have so many overlying emotions from past medical stuff that I don't know if I'm feeling avoidant of the extractions/fillings because it's reasonable to question it, or because I am just traumatized by my kid needing yet another thing done, and instinctually wanting to avoid it.

I am moving forward as if we're going to do the surgery. Nobody seems in a hurry, though (we're in consultation with his hematologist), so I'm just going to go really slowly and consider all the options until I feel comfortable with a decision.

In other teeth news, I think that the salt water rinse we've been using this week is doing the best job yet of keeping the bacteria in check. We can tell when his bacteria start overtaking his mouth because he gets a sinus infection or a snotty nose. He was mildly snotty before we started the salt water mouth rinse, but as soon as we started using it the snottiness went away. It came back on a day when I skipped the rinses for most of the day, but went away again when I re-instituted the rinses. Good to know!

[Koalamom]

Just wanted to send another hug your way! I googled hemophilia and I con't believe you have to deal with it, sounds scarry. Our kids should never get together as my dh has genetic passing porphria and he cuts open VERY easliy, like rooling over at night could tear his skin on his arm to shreads. But atleast he heals up fine. Still not sure if the kids have it and may not know until puberty.

With the stuffy nose, I was wondering if your son has any issues with dairy, or other food allergies?

My young brother had eary childhood decay and had to get scacers. He is 15 now and his mouth is very crowded. I guess he should have gotten the spacers adjusted quite often and didn't. Although all my siblings have very crowded teeth, none have a pressed in looking face. (not saying anything mean about my brother, really as he is turning out to be a target for the ladies)

[lorelei]

If they're not causing him pain, and there's no signs of abscess or infection, maybe you could try a short term (month or so?) attempt at using some of the helps in this forum to see if you can help him heal the cavities.

I knocked out one tooth and chipped off half the other one when I was in 5th grade. I had to have root canals in my 4 top front teeth. Then, they made me have braces. I never had cavities until I got pregnant w dd1, and now, 8 years later, despite still taking very good care of my teeth, I have had a world of problems.

My kids have not seen a dentist, except when we moved to PA the school has them checked I guess. I am not a huge fan of modern dentistry. A lot of the stuff isn't well researched, isn't very healthy in the long term, and just sort of scares me. But I've had some bad experiences personally, and my sister too- so that colors my opinion.

I guess get a second opinion and then if he's still in no pain, you could try to get some healing going on? I think a lot of docs are very extraction and root canal happy, imho. Good luck, that has got to be scary news to hear from the dentist about your son's teeth. Hope it's mostly hyperbole!

[mbravebird]

OK, I think the waiting and thinking is helping me get clearer. I am thinking that it might be worth a try to find a dentist open to monitoring the teeth rather than pulling. I have looked into spacers and extracting molars and it just seems like pulling four molars is a lot, and may really affect his permanent teeth. On the other hand, if the decay continues that could also affect his permanent teeth -- but if we are monitoring closely, then hopefully we would catch that and extract if truly necessary. But I need to get a second opinion in order to see if my thinking makes sense. I am also thinking to go ahead and fill the cavities that can be filled.

We already do bone broths, raw dairy, great fats, CLO/BO twice a week, etc etc etc. He even occasionally gets nettle infusion. I am going with the theory that the heavy-duty antibiotics and the antiseizure meds caused enamel problems, despite the nutrition.

We have added, in the past month, cell salts, xylitol/salt water, and daily butter oil. I cannot tell if the cavities on the surface look improved yet, but I can tell that the bacteria is getting under control. Bluebirdmama, I don't think the stuffy nose is due to dairy. When he first got it, it was a full-on sinus infection, and he was having no dairy at the time, and hadn't for a few months. I didn't know he had cavities, and was doing the neti pot twice a day with no results at all. Then I found the cavities, started treating his mouth for bacteria, and the sinus infection cleared up right away. Since then, whenever the bacteria in his mouth get built up again from me slacking, he will get a stuffy nose again. I looked at the research, and apparently there's a lot of folks who get sinus issues from their cavities. It's the same bacteria that causes a sinus infection, apparently.

And yes, let's not combine our bleeding issues! We'll have to compare notes when I come get those duck livers...

[momofmine]

Wow, just saw this about your dental issues. How are things going? The connection with the bacteria, cavities, and sinus infections is interesting. What kind of xylitol/salt water rinses are you doing and how often throughout the day?

I agree that I would want to find a dentist who is comfortable monitoring. Four extractions seems like a lot. I think if there are no acute problems you have time.

Big hugs to you both though!

[mbravebird]

Hi, momofmine! I just remembered that you sent me an email about the goose liver a while back! I'll try to find it and respond. I've changed emails and never check that one anymore, so I think I saw it and then promptly forgot about it.

We are actually thinking of getting a second opinion from a holistic dentist up in Front Royal -- nearer to you than to us.

We are doing a salt water rinse, followed by a green tea/xylitol rinse, about three times a day. I started at five, but three seems to be where we've settled. We're also doing cell salts and increased butteroil and liver. The cell salts we're using are: Bioplasma, calc flour, calc phos, and silica.

I'm feeling a little bit more settled about it these days, and more confident that we have some time to try some things. Thanks for the hugs! The whole thing threw me for a loop.

Hope you guys are doing well!!

[momofmine]

Yes, let me know about the goose liver, you can just PM me.

Thanks for the info on the rinses. Is there a link you have that shows how to make the rinses? Like how much salt, what kind of salt, etc, and the tea/xylitol? I am needing to heal some gum issues and was told that I have bacteria, etc, so am wondering if that might help me.

[momofmine]

Just PM'ed you about the dentist too.

[mbravebird]

Heh, heh, these rinses are my own invention. Based on the theories I've read, though, that folks claim success with: get bacteria out, change the ph of the mouth, expose to flouride without ingesting it.

And they're based on good research. Green tea is a natural source of flouride and anti-bacterials, with studies that show cavity reduction from green tea rinses when done at least three times a day. There are bunches of studies on xylitol and cavity reduction, as well as anecdotal evidence that it works really well with flouride. I am suspicious of ingesting it, so I'd rather do it as a rinse. And salt water rinses are even recommended in some mainstream places! It kills bacteria and changes the ph of the mouth.

So, I do a teabag of green tea, two tsp of xylitol, and half a cup of water. That makes him enough to last a day, and then I just make more the next morning.

I use about a tsp of salt (good sea salt) to a half a cup of water. I have him rinse first with the salt water, and then with the green tea/xylitol.

One full minute of swishing. That's been mentioned in several studies.

Have you looked at Neem for gum health? I came across that a lot when researching. All the stuff in the stores has sorbitol in it, but you can order bulk neem with the bark (the bark's important) at http://neemtreefarms.com/neem-bark-powder-p-105.html . In fact, if you decide to order, let me know, because I might want some too, to add to the rinses or to even brush with.