The same behavior is far more annoying when being judged

[sapphire_chan]

UPDATE #73 (Do not reply to OP until you read the whole thread first and still think your comment will be helpful.)

Further update, thank you very much for the support and advice. Even the advice that wouldn't/didn't work for me was good for clarifying what was and wasn't working for my family.
__________________________________________________ ___
Okay, yes it is frustrating that she feels like she HAS to watch a video to go to sleep. But it's not like she'll go to sleep any faster if we let her scream. It's not like anyone will get any more rest. It's not her fault that her brain is going through a phase where she wants color and motion to relax and at the same time wants talking and music.

Yes, it's annoying that she's tired and cranky during the day when I try to get her out to do things in real life and then she wants to spend the whole evening watching cartoon people do the things we didn't get to do during the day.

But we don't live in a neighborhood where we can just take her out for a long walk at night instead. We don't have a yard where we can let her play on a swing at midnight.

And, much as I'm glad dh is back from training, OMG nights are going to suck with this feeling that she "has" to be in bed by a certain time. Especially if he's going to be up using a computer until 1am so she wont even consider starting to go to bed because there are lights and sounds.

[alfabetsoup]

You've posted before about your daughter's sleep schedule, yes? You MUST make a change if it is bothering you so much. You are the parent and you know best. If you don't feel it's appropriate for her to watch a video at night, don't let her. Sure there will be protest, but she's not quite 2, she'll forget in a few days. She is just a month younger than my DD who needs a minimum 13 hours sleep in 24--11 hours at night and 1-2 hour nap in the afternoon.

We went on a short vacation last week. Stayed in a hotel, which was lovely, but when the kids go to bed, DH & I had to either go to bed or hang out in the bathroom! It was only 3 nights, so the last night, we thought we'd let the kids stay up late and watch a movie. We watched The Princess and the Frog and stayed up til 9:30. DD1 is fairly sleep adaptable (4yrs) but DD2 could. not. go. to. sleep. Usually we plonk her in her cot at 7:30 and she chats for a bit then conks off. No. She was crying, screaming, standing up in the cot, the whole range of toddler protest behaviour. I had to lie down with her (which she normally hates) and sing and cuddle her for a long time before she calmed down and went to sleep. DD1 then woke up at 6:30am and was bored enough by 7 to wake up her little sister. She was pretty cranky and touchy for the rest of the day, had a long nap and went to bed early. I won't be keeping her up late again.

The point of this long-winded story is that I think you are missing the window. DD2's window is 7:30-8:30. Any time out of that window is going to be a huge struggle, regardless of what she's done that day or how much nap she's had. I think what you have to do is think out what schedule (sleep, meals, playtime) would suit you and follow it. Adopt a "you don't have to go home but you can't stay here" policy. She doesn't have to eat her lunch but she needs to sit at the table with you for a few minutes and chat. She doesn't have to go to sleep but she has to be in her (your?) room in her pjs, doing quiet things (no electronics!) If the computer is visible from her bed, move it or have a policy of it staying off until she goes to sleep.

One thing that's really helpful is having DD1 at school--we have to get up by 7 every morning and out the door by 8. School run takes about 30 min so DD2 and I are up and dressed and ready go by 8:30! The world is our oyster! We do most of our activities in the morning while DD1 is at school and then see friends in the afternoon. Schedule something in the mornings, pay no attention to crankiness, act like you are having the time of your life and so is she.

I'm in the minority on MDC but I do not believe in letting toddlers rule the roost. They have no idea what they need sleep or food wise and would eat cookies all day and stay up til the wee hours if they were let. Enforcing bedtime and wake up time makes your life easier (once you get used to it), but more importantly is healthier for them! A well rested toddler is a happy toddler. The happier they are, the easier it is to go out and the more you go out the tired-er they get and the easier they go to sleep. It's a win-win situation.

ETA: I never used CIO, DD2 just likes to go to sleep on her own. I did the same sort of scheduling with DD1 but cuddled her to sleep until just a few months ago.

[sapphire_chan]

It has improved, or rather my attitude about it has. My OP was a bit misleading cause it was late. She doesn't actually ask for a video every night, but after being out late to get dh after 3 weeks away from home, she was worked up and wanted the stimulation of the video for her senses so her mind and body could relax.
She'd also had very little to eat all day and asked for an egg. It didn't help that the night before we were out babysitting.

Dh thought we should put our feet down, and when I wanted to just take 5 minutes to do what she was asking, he headed off to bed and gave me this look that was like a version of

When she goes to sleep by 8 she's awake by midnight. Or not. Or 9. Or 3am. And by awake I mean revved up and ready to go to the park.

Really, I'm hoping moving will help things. We'll be half as far from a park and have a grassy yard space available to get her outside longer and more frequently.

[crunchy_mommy]

We are still on a 11pm-10am sleep schedule with DS. I'm very happy with it now Sure there are times I wish *I* could go to bed at 10pm & have to wait 'til he's asleep which would be another 1-2 hours, but for the most part, it works, and this morning (Saturday) I got to sleep in as late as I wanted.

Also, every night for I don't even know how long, I've fallen asleep watching TV. Ironically, I never watched much TV growing up & I now ONLY watch TV at night to fall asleep. But hey, it gets me to sleep, it *cured* my insomnia, I don't see the big deal.

I hope you get to enjoy your DH being back & you two can come to an agreement about this... doesn't sound nice after not seeing each other for so long!

[physmom]

We have a late bedtime here too (10 pm). We fought it for a long time but DD only needs 10 hours of sleep at night, and I'm just not will to wake up at 6 pm!

FWIW, one of the very, very few ways DD falls asleep without me being there is watching TV. The only other way is after hours in the stroller/car.

But it sounds like that night was an exception. When DH comes back home from a business trip DD is ALWAYS crazy. It takes a few days for her to settle down. Unfortnatly that's just the way it is.

[Abraisme]

Originally Posted by alfabetsoup

You've posted before about your daughter's sleep schedule, yes? You MUST make a change if it is bothering you so much. You are the parent and you know best. If you don't feel it's appropriate for her to watch a video at night, don't let her. Sure there will be protest, but she's not quite 2, she'll forget in a few days. She is just a month younger than my DD who needs a minimum 13 hours sleep in 24--11 hours at night and 1-2 hour nap in the afternoon.

We went on a short vacation last week. Stayed in a hotel, which was lovely, but when the kids go to bed, DH & I had to either go to bed or hang out in the bathroom! It was only 3 nights, so the last night, we thought we'd let the kids stay up late and watch a movie. We watched The Princess and the Frog and stayed up til 9:30. DD1 is fairly sleep adaptable (4yrs) but DD2 could. not. go. to. sleep. Usually we plonk her in her cot at 7:30 and she chats for a bit then conks off. No. She was crying, screaming, standing up in the cot, the whole range of toddler protest behaviour. I had to lie down with her (which she normally hates) and sing and cuddle her for a long time before she calmed down and went to sleep. DD1 then woke up at 6:30am and was bored enough by 7 to wake up her little sister. She was pretty cranky and touchy for the rest of the day, had a long nap and went to bed early. I won't be keeping her up late again.

The point of this long-winded story is that I think you are missing the window. DD2's window is 7:30-8:30. Any time out of that window is going to be a huge struggle, regardless of what she's done that day or how much nap she's had. I think what you have to do is think out what schedule (sleep, meals, playtime) would suit you and follow it. Adopt a "you don't have to go home but you can't stay here" policy. She doesn't have to eat her lunch but she needs to sit at the table with you for a few minutes and chat. She doesn't have to go to sleep but she has to be in her (your?) room in her pjs, doing quiet things (no electronics!) If the computer is visible from her bed, move it or have a policy of it staying off until she goes to sleep.

One thing that's really helpful is having DD1 at school--we have to get up by 7 every morning and out the door by 8. School run takes about 30 min so DD2 and I are up and dressed and ready go by 8:30! The world is our oyster! We do most of our activities in the morning while DD1 is at school and then see friends in the afternoon. Schedule something in the mornings, pay no attention to crankiness, act like you are having the time of your life and so is she.

I'm in the minority on MDC but I do not believe in letting toddlers rule the roost. They have no idea what they need sleep or food wise and would eat cookies all day and stay up til the wee hours if they were let. Enforcing bedtime and wake up time makes your life easier (once you get used to it), but more importantly is healthier for them! A well rested toddler is a happy toddler. The happier they are, the easier it is to go out and the more you go out the tired-er they get and the easier they go to sleep. It's a win-win situation.

ETA: I never used CIO, DD2 just likes to go to sleep on her own. I did the same sort of scheduling with DD1 but cuddled her to sleep until just a few months ago.

I totally agree with this. I have a pretty set bedtime schedule for both of my children. They know what to expect each night and my DH and I get a couple of hours of adult time together. Both of my kids are usually asleep by 8:30 every night. If my 6yo isn't tired he can read quietly in his room.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

It's not like anyone will get any more rest. It's not her fault that her brain is going through a phase where she wants color and motion to relax and at the same time wants talking and music.

What about singing or talking her to sleep? Reading a story, or several?

You know, I understand being frustrated with non-sleeping children. I truly do. But people slept for thousands of years before we had television. If people "need" TV to fall asleep, it's because it's become a habit, IMO.

Originally Posted by alfabetsoup

I'm in the minority on MDC but I do not believe in letting toddlers rule the roost. They have no idea what they need sleep or food wise and would eat cookies all day and stay up til the wee hours if they were let. Enforcing bedtime and wake up time makes your life easier (once you get used to it), but more importantly is healthier for them! A well rested toddler is a happy toddler. The happier they are, the easier it is to go out and the more you go out the tired-er they get and the easier they go to sleep. It's a win-win situation.

I'm in this minority, too.

However, I do take a tiny bit of issue with the idea that the parent always knows best. I made a lot of mistakes with my firstborn. I didn't know best on everything.

A lot of people who Ferberize think they know best, too. KWIM?

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by 2xy

What about singing or talking her to sleep? Reading a story, or several?

She enjoys those immensely, starts nursing to sleep, has her eyes half closed, and with nothing being said or done wakes right up and asks for food or going out to see stars or the park or a video or to paint. Sometimes she does fall asleep.

Yeah, people did stuff before videos. Waaaayyy back when, they had fires going all night with the teens of the tribe keeping the fire going and guarding against the night, and now, I suspect they were also playing with the tribe's toddlers. After all, toddlers got strapped to mama's back all day while she gathered nuts and berries and trapped rabbits, it's not like they needed to get all their sleep at night.

More recently, there are mobiles.

When we're out late with other people, she doesn't get to sleep any earlier, but also doesn't ask for videos. She'd do really well if there were night clubs for toddlers. Hmm, maybe I should go grocery shopping at 9pm.

[treeoflife3]

The only way my baby will sleep is if I do our routine of going to her room to change her diaper and get her in pajamas and play quietly in there for a few minutes then go out to the living room to read stories (usually daddy does this, but he is often gone so that isn't always a guarantee... but only a light on.. no computer/tv/radio/anything) and after stories I pick her up and we say good night and I love you and blow kisses and then I walk her slowly to her dark bedroom and nurse her to sleep. And it has to be after 715 and before 8.

skipping anything usually makes it harder. Luckily she is good at making it clear she is ready to sleep, but after months and months of struggle and pacing and singing and rocking and tears, this is the only thing that works without a fuss or a struggle and gets the best results in terms of waking up and how late she sleeps in.

She doesn't sleep well in new places so the first night is hard but as long as I stick to recreating the routine, she is usually fine.

If your little one likes something really stimulating to go to sleep, perhaps playing a fun and bright game will help since you can't always go out to the park/walk/whatever. Mine needs to really quiet down so we just do books and stuffed animals and only dim lighting... if yours needs the opposite, perhaps just finding a routine that incorporates that will help more. Maybe some sort of game with flashlights and animal sounds or something?

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

She'd do really well if there were night clubs for toddlers. Hmm, maybe I should go grocery shopping at 9pm.

We do this! Well, maybe not 9pm, as most of the stores around here close by 9/9:30, but we often go grocery shopping at 7 or 8pm, or stay visiting family late, or stay outside late, etc.

I do not believe that ALL toddlers NEED to go to bed between 7-8pm, and quite frankly I don't understand why so many parents insist on that kind of schedule. I'm sure many toddlers do great with an early bedtime but some have a shifted biological clock and do better with a later bedtime. For the longest time I tried to get DS to sleep around 8pm and it led to so many frustrations and very little sleep. Once I gave up and just let him stay up 'til he was ready to sleep, we were all much happier, he stopped waking up every 30-60 minutes all night, stopped waking up tired, etc. and was overall much happier. And we do lots during the day, so a late wake-up time is not a hindrance to lots of fun & physical activity!

I was exactly like him as a kid, and I never went to bed before 10pm (often later, and I also didn't nap)... the only time it was a problem was when I was in highschool and has to wake up at 5am.

As far as TV/videos, DS doesn't watch any (yet!) but I think if she needs that sometimes & you're OK with it, then it's fine! DS usually will only fall asleep nursing, & often only with his musical seahorse playing in his arms... I'd honestly prefer him to fall asleep without props but at this point it's more important to me that we all get sleep than that he falls asleep a certain way. He likes singing too but my voice gets hoarse after awhile. He has never been able to just lie down & fall asleep or cuddle to sleep -- not all babies are able to do that!

ETA: I also wanted to add that parents often DO know what's best for their child, but that isn't always what everyone else thinks is best!

[funnygrace]

You didn't mention what time she gets up, I don't think (and I haven't read your other posts about her sleep), but what about waking her up earlier to try to set the sleeping back? I haven't really done it yet, but I'm thinking about that. Part of the later bedtime for us is about the later wake up time that neither of the adults in the house want to give up. I think we'll have to wake up earlier to get an earlier bedtime. ? ?

[foodymama]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

When we're out late with other people, she doesn't get to sleep any earlier, but also doesn't ask for videos. She'd do really well if there were night clubs for toddlers. Hmm, maybe I should go grocery shopping at 9pm.

Great idea! And we go grocery shopping at 9 pm! Sometimes people look at us strangely because we have a toddler out so late but it works for us! My Mom said I was the same way. My Dad worked night shift and when he came home at 3am if I wasn't sleeping they would go grocery shopping!

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy

I do not believe that ALL toddlers NEED to go to bed between 7-8pm, and quite frankly I don't understand why so many parents insist on that kind of schedule. I'm sure many toddlers do great with an early bedtime but some have a shifted biological clock and do better with a later bedtime. For the longest time I tried to get DS to sleep around 8pm and it led to so many frustrations and very little sleep. Once I gave up and just let him stay up 'til he was ready to sleep, we were all much happier, he stopped waking up every 30-60 minutes all night, stopped waking up tired, etc. and was overall much happier. And we do lots during the day, so a late wake-up time is not a hindrance to lots of fun & physical activity!

ETA: I also wanted to add that parents often DO know what's best for their child, but that isn't always what everyone else thinks is best!

Thank you for saying that! I agree completely! Everyone on this site is so adamant about "early bedtimes" and hold the belief that if your toddler goes to bed late you have "missed the window of an earlier bedtime" or you aren't "reading their signals correctly". And the the whole truth is that not all children want or need to be in bed by 7 or 8 pm!

I sympathize with the two of you whole heartedly!

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by funnygrace

You didn't mention what time she gets up, I don't think (and I haven't read your other posts about her sleep), but what about waking her up earlier to try to set the sleeping back? I haven't really done it yet, but I'm thinking about that. Part of the later bedtime for us is about the later wake up time that neither of the adults in the house want to give up. I think we'll have to wake up earlier to get an earlier bedtime. ? ?

Lately, we've been getting up at 7 to take dh to work. She still goes to sleep at midnight.

[sapphire_chan]

I am absolutely certain that dd is not ready for bed at 7pm on days when she wakes up from her nap at 6:30pm.

[VroomieMama]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy

We do this! Well, maybe not 9pm, as most of the stores around here close by 9/9:30, but we often go grocery shopping at 7 or 8pm, or stay visiting family late, or stay outside late, etc.

I do not believe that ALL toddlers NEED to go to bed between 7-8pm, and quite frankly I don't understand why so many parents insist on that kind of schedule. I'm sure many toddlers do great with an early bedtime but some have a shifted biological clock and do better with a later bedtime. For the longest time I tried to get DS to sleep around 8pm and it led to so many frustrations and very little sleep. Once I gave up and just let him stay up 'til he was ready to sleep, we were all much happier, he stopped waking up every 30-60 minutes all night, stopped waking up tired, etc. and was overall much happier. And we do lots during the day, so a late wake-up time is not a hindrance to lots of fun & physical activity!

I was exactly like him as a kid, and I never went to bed before 10pm (often later, and I also didn't nap)... the only time it was a problem was when I was in highschool and has to wake up at 5am.

As far as TV/videos, DS doesn't watch any (yet!) but I think if she needs that sometimes & you're OK with it, then it's fine! DS usually will only fall asleep nursing, & often only with his musical seahorse playing in his arms... I'd honestly prefer him to fall asleep without props but at this point it's more important to me that we all get sleep than that he falls asleep a certain way. He likes singing too but my voice gets hoarse after awhile. He has never been able to just lie down & fall asleep or cuddle to sleep -- not all babies are able to do that!

ETA: I also wanted to add that parents often DO know what's best for their child, but that isn't always what everyone else thinks is best!

When I went to Spain during Summer of 2006 for a month. I remember being surprised/shocked to see so many young children outside playing soccer so late at night as their parents or family/friends sat around the table at a restaurant chatting until it was early in the morning. It was normal there but not here. I remember telling my friends about that when I returned from Spain and they were surprised. Some of them were concerned about those kids not getting enough sleep because of school and etc. I told them that people in Spain would take a nap or take a break to spend time with family from 11am to 2pm (I can't remember exact time) and would go back to work. Some of the stores would be closed during that time too.

America is so different and I often wonder, if we do the same thing as what people do in Spain.. maybe people would be less stressed here and enjoy life more. I miss Spain and I wanna go back. Heck, I wouldn't mind living there for a few year but my DH disagree. We only live once, right?! AARGH!

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by VroomieMama

America is so different and I often wonder, if we do the same thing as what people do in Spain.. maybe people would be less stressed here and enjoy life more. I miss Spain and I wanna go back. Heck, I wouldn't mind living there for a few year but my DH disagree. We only live once, right?! AARGH!

Yes!!! How nice would it be to drop everything & go home for quiet time midday? We do this when we go on vacation & it's just so relaxing to get that break midday.

I do think the early bedtimes are an American thing... so much stress & so much to do, you won't wake up in time if you aren't in bed early around here

[gagin37]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

I am absolutely certain that dd is not ready for bed at 7pm on days when she wakes up from her nap at 6:30pm.

We deal with the same thing a lot of the time. ds is a late napper 3-5 or 4-6 usually. It is unheard of for him to go to bed before 9pm, even on days that he doesn't nap at all, which are more and more frequent. He wakes several times throughout the night, and is up by 7 or 7:30AM. Some days we don't even finish dinner until 7:30 in the evening. He would never sleep then, he goes to bed between 9 and 10 most nights. There's no forcing him either, for bed, or nap. I've tried, believe me! I don't feel like I let my toddler rule the roost, I think we're on a schedule that works best for everyone in our family.

[ThisCat]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Lately, we've been getting up at 7 to take dh to work. She still goes to sleep at midnight.

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

I am absolutely certain that dd is not ready for bed at 7pm on days when she wakes up from her nap at 6:30pm.

After only 7 hours of sleep at night I would think she'd be ready for a nap way before late afternoon/early evening. My son sleeps 11-12 hours at night and is usually ready for a nap 5 to 6 hours max after he get up. He gets up between 6 and 7, and is usually down for the count between 11:30 and 12:30. He usually sleeps 1 1/2 to 2 hours. My daughter had a similar pattern.

Maybe if your DD napped earlier, she might be ready to go to bed earlier. Then again, who knows. Just throwing that out there in case it might be of some use to you. I'm trying to imagine life around here if my son went to bed at midnight and had to wake up at 7.

[Theoretica]

My (barely) 2yo has a hard time getting to sleep also! It's frustrating and SO tempting to put something on the laptop for her to zone out on.

For me though, I realized something that I had forgotten with so much of an age span between her and the older three (her next oldest sib is 9).

Toddlers have a LOT of energy. MUCH more than we think they do. That being said, she's not an early bedtime kid...so it's not realistic that she's going to go to bed at 7. It IS realistic, however, that she can go to bed at 9. If she's tired enough. If she's not tired enough, *I* didn't do enough to keep her brain and body busy throughout the day so she's properly tired at night.

I hear you that your neighborhood isn't conducive to late night walks etc, but I second the idea of going grocery shopping (we go around 7), even if you only get a couple things. Let her walk (hop/skip/frog jump) the entire way, or go to a shop that has a mini-cart for kids to push. Anything that gets those legs moving! Take her to a playground at around 6 for an hour or two and run her ragged My point is to make afternoon a heavy physical playtime focus for the two of you. Then when it's time for bed at 9, get a protein snack in her tummy and a warm, relaxing bath, and snuggle in for bed.

It might not work like you need it to on the first try, but keep at it and I bet it'll work after a night or two. Getting them to use up all that energy is tough for a toddler!!!

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by ThisCat

After only 7 hours of sleep at night I would think she'd be ready for a nap way before late afternoon/early evening. My son sleeps 11-12 hours at night and is usually ready for a nap 5 to 6 hours max after he get up. He gets up between 6 and 7, and is usually down for the count between 11:30 and 12:30. He usually sleeps 1 1/2 to 2 hours. My daughter had a similar pattern.

Maybe if your DD napped earlier, she might be ready to go to bed earlier. Then again, who knows. Just throwing that out there in case it might be of some use to you. I'm trying to imagine life around here if my son went to bed at midnight and had to wake up at 7.

It really varies. She goes some days with 10 hours of sleep, others with 16+. She'll nap from 2 to 6 some days, 11 to 1 some days, 10 to 1 and also 4 to 7 on others.

She used to nap pretty consistently around 11am, but she just doesn't these days. Even with the stuff that used to help her sleep.