R-e-s-p-e-c-t

[fairefaerie]

DD is 7 going on 16, it seems. When it comes to taking direction from the family (we're all adults here), she absolutely refuses. It seems, that she would rather wait to figure out everything "her way". Let me quote a conversation I had with her tonight on the way home from Vacation Bible School.

Me: Do you have a memory verse to learn for tomorrow?
DD: Yup, and it's loooong!
Me: Oh, well, then, let's hear it.
DD: [Reads a really long verse from Psalms that I've already forgotten.]
Me: Wow, that really is long! How about, tomorrow, we work together and help you memorize that? I bet you'll get some kind of sticker or prize if you come back tomorrow with it memorized.
DD: Nope.
Me: Oh, you won't?
DD: Nope.
Me: Did they tell you that?
DD: Nope. I just know. If you go to this Bible school with a memory verse memorized, they'll just say, 'Ho, hum,' and you get nothing.

Let's pause for a moment while I reflect that, though I wanted to, I did not bang my head into the steering wheel while driving. I gritted my teeth and continued.

Me: Well, let's just try. The first part goes, 'I will praise thee.' Can you say that part?
DD: Yep. [Silence]
Me: Well, can I hear you say it?
DD: Nope.
Me: Uh, why not?
DD: Cuz, I don't wanna memorize it that way.
Me: Oh, well, how do you want to memorize it?
DD: I'll wait until I'm old enough to do it myself.

This continues for the better part of half an hour. It boils down to the fact that DD will listen to anyone who is an official "Teacher" but not to anyone she's actually related to.

I want to mention that this is not an isolated incident. It's something my parents and I have been battling since she turned seven (one month ago). She seems to be genuinely contrite when the problem is pointed out, but it doesn't stop future issues.
Does anyone else have issues like this with their child? I'm ready to pull my hair out every time she disrespects a family member by acting as if they are total morons while she is omniscient. Help me, before I go bald, please!

[ssh]

Don't take it personally. Maybe she's trying to take responsibility for her own learning. How is she doing academically? If she's doing ok, you might want to just respect her when she doesn't want help with learning things. Maybe try asking if she'd like some help before making suggestions. Perhaps she feels you don't think she can do it on her own or something. Also it could just be a phase and it'll go away be the time she's 7.5.

[mamazee]

I think there are two issues. The first is that she doesn't want help with the Bible verse, and I think in cases like this you should let her take responsibility for those things if she wants that responsibility. Her wanting to take responsibility for it is a step forward IMO, not a step back.

The second issue is speaking disrespectfully, and as I have an 8-year-old going on 17 (LOL) I get that completely. What I do is to remind her every time she's rude how what she says sounds to me. Usually she doesn't seem to understand that she's coming off as rude. But if she keeps that rude tone, she's going to have trouble in life, so I do want to keep reminding her. I don't call her rude as I don't want to label her like that and I'm afraid they buy into labels, but I do say something like, "When you talk to me in that tone of voice (or when you do X, whatever it is), it makes me feel like you don't respect me (or whatever.)" It is helping, she's better than she was at 6 and 7, but I think it takes a while to learn how to speak nicely and she isn't consistently there. But IMO the key is to be consistent with telling them when they're rude, and as tempting as it is to do otherwise, to respond respectfully instead of getting angry and snarking back.

So anyway she should respond respectfully if she doesn't want your help, and I would tell her the polite way to tell you that. "It sounds like you don't want my help with memorizing your Bible verse, and I'd like you to tell me that in a respectful way, like 'No thank you Mom, I want to work on it by myself.'"

[EdnaMarie]

Okay. Maybe because I don't have a seven-year-old, I'm not "hearing" an insolent tone in that conversation, but I don't see what's rude about that.

She doesn't want your help with the verse. Okay. She tries to "tell" you indirectly, and I think mamazee's suggestion of telling her how to ask to be alone with her thoughts in a polite way is good.

However, I don't see how the second part of the conversation is rude at all. What was she supposed to do, just say, "Okay, mom, whatever you want,"? or "Let's do it!" Both of those express a feeling and desire she just didn't have.

I for one HATE talking in the car. I like to daydream. It's a nice time to think. Maybe she didn't want to ask you to stop talking to her, but could not dredge up the energy to have a full conversation.

Now, I realize this is an example, but if that's sass, wow, can you please take my kid for a week and you will be crying with gratitude for a week that your child is that "disrespectful".

No, I'm serious. I'll give you my address. :

[One_Girl]

I am not seeing the rude part of the conversation, but I assume it was something you just had to be there for. I usually drop things for a while when it is clear that my dd is resisting doing something then I bring it up again later. If it is something that my dd needs to do then I tell her that she needs to find a way to do it and give her a time frame for doing it then I back off and let her do it on her own. If she hasn't done it when she needs to I switch to using when/then speech (when you are done practicing piano then we can read our bedtime stories or when you are done cleaning your room then we can do to the park). Letting her decide gives her the choice and responsibility that she wants to have and takes the pressure off of me to immediately force her to do something arbitrary just because I said she should do something. I rarely pull out the phrase "I am not asking go do it now" but that if it is important I will.

Sometimes I let an issue drop all together because it isn't something that I care enough to invest my energy in. I will just tell my dd that I wish she would do something, the reason why I think she should do it, then I tell her it is her choice. I try very hard to avoid power struggles over little things and that seems to help when it comes to big things.

[fairefaerie]

First of all, thanks for all the suggestions!

Secondly, I want to make it clear that this isn't about the Bible verse, it was just the most recent conversation, and I could remember it the most clearly.

The major problem we're having is that she won't take any advice, regardless or what that advice is on. Her grandfather has been trying to teach her to swim (instead of flail like she's drowning); I've been trying to teach her to sew (because she asked), and her grandmother has been trying to teach her how to fold her clothes (because she doesn't want others to do it). In each of these situations, she will not listen to the instruction given to her because, "I don't do it that way!!!!"

The sad fact is, that if we had the money to bring in tutors for each of these situations, she'd follow their instruction to the letter because they are not related to her and have that official "teacher" title.

I'm trying to understand how to get her to respect her family the same way she respects every other adult in her life.

Again, thanks so, so much for the suggestions. I just wanted to clarify the issue.

[meemee]

i get it.

see this is the 'independence trail' she wants to walk on.

i get the 'you are not the boss of me' all the time.

i can understand. poor child is tired of always having to listen to us.

so i have heaped responsibilities over responsibilities over her. she makes the decision. for instance she makes the decision of what we want for lunch. and then makes the list and we go to the grocery store and she has to fit things in a budget. its amazing what they can do.

i have noticed with my dd, whenever she gets mouthy its time to take another look at my parenting and see how i am treating her.

for instance this is what i did with hw in first grade. she HATED and still HATES hw. i told her i dont really care if she does her hw or not. i think its redundant and i can empathise with her having to do repeatitious work. but when you are in school you have to abide by certain rules. so hw is between her and her teacher and i am there just to help.

she was thrilled. ok i wont do hw. i know i would have to sit on teh bench. i'd rather do that and quickly finish my hw and then read a book.

whatever.

hah!!! within a week she said she was bored of sitting on the bench. it wasnt any fun any longer. all i now had to do was remind her to do her homework if it was past 6 and she hadnt done it.

and that was the end of it. our struggles with hw were over right there.

did you just pick her up from VBS? and had that conversation in the car? my dd would have been that way too.

are you aware the tone you are using to talk to your dd. i notice i have to be more adult with her. i have to watch myself too. she calls me on it everytime.

i make sure everything out of me is NOT a command. some are requests which she can say yes or no to. she also has the same power. she can give me a command or a request as long as she knows which one IS a request and which IS a command.

our children are growing up and they are becoming aware of how we talk to them. check and see how you talk to them.

my dd too is 7 going on 60 as my friend likes to say, but you know what - for some reason it does not bug me. i see her as an trying to charter adult territories and trying to figure out how to do it.

i think the time is ripe for how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen when kids talk.

looking at myself i actually find many times my dd is right and i am wrong. i as a parent am still trying to impose my rules on her. all she is saying is ma let me make some rules too.

[Surfacing]

I too have noticed my dd (who is 5 btw) would rather take instructions from someone outside of the family. I think part of it is that out in the world she follows instructions like a well-behaved little girl (insert halo on head) and at home she gets to try out things with us that she wouldn't do elsewhere.

It's HARD not to take it personally.

We have had incidents too where I have been asked by her teacher to practice a verse with her and she simply WILL.NOT.DO.IT. with me. When I finally release and throw up my hands, I see her performing at her end-of-year show and she knows the verse. She just wanted to do it on her own terms.

It's interesting, this phrase, "Well that's not the way I do it." Sure. There's more than one way to do things, more than one "right" way. "Suit yourself" is an oft used phrase by me around here lately.

We have these struggles too, just wanting to give you a . I certainly don't have all the answers. But there is some good advice on this thread for giving her more responsibility, making that space, speaking to her/treating her respectfully, and pointing out tone. Thanks for sharing this Mamas.

[mom2grrls]

The major problem we're having is that she won't take any advice, regardless or what that advice is on. Her grandfather has been trying to teach her to swim (instead of flail like she's drowning); I've been trying to teach her to sew (because she asked), and her grandmother has been trying to teach her how to fold her clothes (because she doesn't want others to do it). In each of these situations, she will not listen to the instruction given to her because, "I don't do it that way!!!!">>>>>>

Perhaps just rephrasing the words used for helping her may work. For folding clothes(as an example) "This is how I like to fold clothes" or "Folding this way makes it easier for my tops to fit in the drawer". That way you're not saying she should do it that way and she still has the freedom to fold her way but she may take you up on the idea

[madskye]

What about just letting her know that you're all there to help her--you, your parents, etc...just like teachers. So, if she needs help she knows she can come to any of you and doesn't have to do everything on her own. She sounds independent.

My DD is five, and my common problem to this is just getting her to agree to ANYTHING. Anything I suggest lately is met with No or a I don't want to...even when it's something fun, like going to see a movie. I just want to be able to "get back to yes" with her.

[EdnaMarie]

Originally Posted by mom2grrls

Perhaps just rephrasing the words used for helping her may work. For folding clothes(as an example) "This is how I like to fold clothes" or "Folding this way makes it easier for my tops to fit in the drawer". That way you're not saying she should do it that way and she still has the freedom to fold her way but she may take you up on the idea

My mom does that. I used to tell her, "Well, I don't like to do it that way," or "I don't care about how they fit."

I am pretty stubborn and sometimes I just don't care for any kind of advice from people who aren't paid to advise me. I have no idea why. I take it the wrong way, like it's personal or something. I know this is crazy and as an adult I try to step back but I can see the daughter's perspective (however insolent) here.

I think that maybe when you want to help, if she's not able to accept that, you could say, "Looks like you're not up for my input. Let me know if you have a question or need any help." Another thing we say to my little one, but that I have also used with employees, if they have a problem but more appear to want to complain rather than solve problems, is, "I'm sorry about your problem." Then, if she appears to want help, "Let me know if you think I can help you with a solution." Not to immediately suggest the solution yourself can be helpful.

I realize that you want her to learn to be polite and to take advice even if she doesn't like it, because that's part of being part of a family. However, it might be easier to specifically ask her to do that after backing off a little bit to give her some space to think.

[pinky]

I think at least part of this is developmental. Seven can be a tough transitional age, based on my observations of my dd and her peers. At nine, she's now much easier to get along with!

[nextcommercial]

I tried to read that with the "snotty tone". But, I just can't hear it in my head for some reason. I keep hearing it in a perfectly reasonable seven yr old tone. LOL

So, since she's so polite and reasonable. (in my head) I think I'd let her learn it her way. Or not learn it and see how that feels in the morning. Who knows, maybe she can hear it a few times, and pull it off just fine tomorrow.

I remember thinking "I am NEVER going to need these bible verses again... why learn them?" But, by the time I was 25, I kinda wished I could whip out something from memory besides John 3:16. So, now, i wish I'd paid more attention in Awana. Unfortunately, nobody could have forced me to want to at that age. Sometimes it's best to let them try it their own way.

[NellieKatz]

She sounds like a potential homeschooler/unschooler to me! :-)

[treeoflife3]

reading through the conversation, I probably would have responded just as she did. You really seemed to push that she learn it 'by tomorrow' even though she said it wouldn't be necessary and then went on to try and make her do it RIGHT THEN... and then continued for half an hour over it. Obviously I wasn't there, but I feel like you may have been putting her on the spot to do something she didn't deem necessary in a way she didn't feel would be best for her and tried to twist her arms into doing it anyway just because you thought she'd get a sticker or something. I feel like you could have instead just offered to help her if she needed it once she said she didn't think she'd get any special treatment and didn't want to learn it right then rather than trying to get her to memorize it in the car and not even home yet.

As for the other situations, I really think its a matter of picking your battles. Learning to swim is a good thing but if she is refusing to learn even though SHE asked, perhaps she could be told that swimming should be something fun and she doesn't seem to be having fun so maybe waiting until she is ready to learn and offer input for ideas for her to learn would be better. For folding, I think the focus should really just be that she can put her own clothing away without it being balled up. Everyone in my family folds differently but we all manage to put clothes away nicely... perhaps this just isn't a battle that is worth it. Emphasize that she needs to have them put away nicely but otherwise... I don't think it would hurt to just let her figure it out on her own. also with sewing... easy natural consequence right there. If she doesn't want to learn how to do it, then she will sew things that don't look pretty or won't sew at all. She is only 7 so sewing doesn't need to be a forced or stressful experience. When she is ready to learn, she will.

I think it all comes down to tone of voice towards her (I was always spoken to like a child and am STILL spoken to like a child by my family. I hated being treated like a child and I hated being forced to do it THEIR way just because they assumed they were right because they were the adult. Even if I found my own way, I still was treated as if I was failing. I still am) as well as choosing when she actually needs to do things a certain way and when it is okay for her to find her own way and learn through failing. If she doesn't want to learn to swim safely, then she can just not swim. If she doesn't want to sew correctly, then she just won't make pretty things. If she doesn't want to fold her clothes how grandma does, then she either needs to find another way or continue having someone help. If she doesn't want to memorize a verse by repeating it over and over in the car, then she will either need to find a different way to do it or suffer the consequences for not learning it when she needs to.

She should be informed of how disrespectful she is towards family by refusing any and all help but I also think taking a step back and giving her some freedom to learn things her own way and even fail when she didn't find a way to learn it will be good for her. She is getting ready to enter teenage years and wants independence and freedom and will need respect from those she loves and trusts the most (the family she is the worst with) to give her the chance to feel her own way down the path that fits her best.

I think around the age of seven is when kids really start craving adult responsibilities and the chance to learn things on their own to really be their own person and separate from the adults who, til now, have ran the entire show. It is also a great age to start testing those waters because they have a safe place to fail and try again. As an adult, how they take care of clothes could affect a job interview, but at 7 it can just be the difference between wrinkles on the playground and the decision to get more help.

[NellieKatz]

Last night I replied with a one-liner, but now I might have a little time to respond more fully. This comment in particular made me sad for her (be warned, my reply might not please you very much....it's an issue I am passionate about):

"DD is 7 going on 16, it seems. When it comes to taking direction from the family (we're all adults here), she absolutely refuses. It seems, that she would rather wait to figure out everything "her way". Let me quote a conversation I had with her tonight on the way home from Vacation Bible School."

[Full disclosure: my son is 7 years old and we homeschool. Our style leans toward unschooling but there are some subjects I insist he needs practice on (i.e. certain skills like writing his letters) in order for him to do all the other things in life that he enjoys studying.]

What made me sad about your comment was that your DD seems to still have her own ideas, not only of what interests her but how to learn things. (we all have different styles and timeframes) This is an important and wonderful thing that we are all born with, but few of us seem to survive school with it intact. During school years, we are slowly and surely shown that learning comes from OUTSIDE of us and our interests and our abilities. Education comes from OTHERS and is done TO us. In school, it is not something we pursue...we are receptors only. We learn to take in info just to spit it back in a form that will earn us the approval of the authority figures. Soon, the love of learning and the self-reliance and drive to learn about the world around us can be completely destroyed, as we learn to wait for orders and learn to view learning as a chore...a thing to be avoided.

My son has never been subject to any of this and he is a voracious learner. Right now his passion is mollusks but last summer it was chemistry and molecules. He identifies what he loves and he dives in head-first. He has NO IDEA that learning is not fun. He has no idea that MATH and CHEMISTRY (for example) are hated and dreaded by many. Those are just two examples. Why? Because life IS full of exciting things that children naturally want to learn, but if you hammer them hard enough that THEY don't know what's good for them and YOU (the authorities) DO know what is good for them even when it is something non-essential....soon the love of learning will disappear.

As for memorizing Bible verses....that is an example of something entirely arbitrary to learn, because I assume you want her to own her faith and believe in it....but I doubt that comes from forced memorization. At her young age she is still determining WHAT she believes. Can I assume that you want her to decide what she believes on her own? Or are you telling her what she is supposed to believe about the world and spiritual questions? I guess I know the answer to that because you are sending her to VBS, but the point (I am digressing here) is that if you force a kid too much, even on issues that they SHOULD be allowed (if they are permitted to keep the human dignity they were born with) to decide for themselves on....expect resistance. Lots of it.

At least until the beautiful and independent spirit they were born with has been broken.

I know I probably just made you mad, but that's OK. I am a total stranger and I really do like to get people thinking. Sometimes when people stir us up, it gets us mad for a bit but then we find out about ideas that are so different from us that it helps in the long run. There's a lady out there who absolutely makes my blood boil half the time, but the ideas she presented, even though she ticked me off, really got me thinking and I am so grateful for her being the bee in my bonnet.

For a better understanding of my point of view, read "How Children Learn" and "The Underachieving School," both by John Holt.

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by fairefaerie

First of all, thanks for all the suggestions!

Secondly, I want to make it clear that this isn't about the Bible verse, it was just the most recent conversation, and I could remember it the most clearly.

The major problem we're having is that she won't take any advice, regardless or what that advice is on. Her grandfather has been trying to teach her to swim (instead of flail like she's drowning); I've been trying to teach her to sew (because she asked), and her grandmother has been trying to teach her how to fold her clothes (because she doesn't want others to do it). In each of these situations, she will not listen to the instruction given to her because, "I don't do it that way!!!!"

The sad fact is, that if we had the money to bring in tutors for each of these situations, she'd follow their instruction to the letter because they are not related to her and have that official "teacher" title.

I'm trying to understand how to get her to respect her family the same way she respects every other adult in her life.

Again, thanks so, so much for the suggestions. I just wanted to clarify the issue.

If she isn't wanting advice about little things that aren't necessary then I think you should stop giving it. I would pull back on the instruction and let her try things her way, even if that means that she doesn't sew well, swim well, or have neatly folded clothes, etc... If it isn't a big deal for her to do it her way then I think you should let it go or take that privilege away if it has to be done only one way.

School and home are very different places with very different expectations. When I teach my expectations and behavior are much different from the expectations I have as a mother. I am still warm and caring, but there is much less time to relax and develop a strong relationship. Teachers tend to expect that their directions will be followed quickly, they behave in a way that demands rather than asks for cooperation, they work to set up an environment where things work smoothly, they develop relationships with children but these aren't as deep as the parent/child relationship, and in many classrooms there is a consequence for not cooperating. Teachers don't have the time or leeway to let kids have a lot of choice in what they do in the classroom, what kids do and how they do it is often not negotiable because teachers are aware of how kids tend to learn best (though they will change the method they teach if a student needs to learn in a different way), they are paid to teach 25-32 children how to do a set of skills and they set up their classroom so they can do this with a minimum of fuss and refusal.

Home is the place you go to relax and be your true self, even for teachers. Home is an environment that tends to be relaxed and has a lot of opportunity for choice and negotiation. I don't think there is anything wrong with school and learning to do things in a formal way, but I don't think that everywhere should be school. I would hate to have to act like a teacher all the time, to develop only a teacher/child relationship with my child, and to have to always be the one to make decisions. I think it may help if you try to look at your daughter's independence as a good thing and figure out how to help her develop it as fully as is possible in your family. Before squashing independence or assuming it is 16 year old sassy talk, try assessing the situation and deciding if it is really a big issue you need to push and fight her on or a little issue that she can make a choice about without any long term negative consequences.

[CrazyCatLady]

To me it really doesn't sound like an attitude or gentle discipline problem. It sounds like you were annoying her in the car, and she was trying in her own seven year old way to get you to stop. The conversation probably should have been dropped sooner. It's really easy to treat older kids in a childish way or to be somewhat condescending towards them (I catch myself doing it sometimes). But seven is plenty old enough to decide if she felt like studying right now, studying with you or alone, etc. An offer to help her when she was ready would have probably been fine on it's own.

The swimming, sewing, folding. I'm just really blunt with my dd. If she wants me to teach her something and then refuses to listen or acts like a know-it-all, I tell her that she's annoying/frustrating me and that I'll be glad to try teaching her again when she's really ready to learn. Then I stop and do something else until she's ready to be nicer and more cooperative. We're still having this battle with swimming.

The folding the clothes. If you expect her to do it, I would offer to show her my way. If she was refusing to do it neatly, or to do it at all I would just tell her to stay in her room until it was done. And to call for me if/when she wants some help/assistance. Or that she could come out on her own when it was done. If I was helping her and she was being bossy or rude about it, I'd just tell her that I didn't want to be spoken to that way. And once again I'd leave and let her know she can holler at me when she wants some help. Though I don't expect a seven year old to fold laundry all that great. It's kind of something you get better at with practice.

I'm pretty direct about my feelings and I really pick and choose my battles. It usually works pretty well around here.

[mamazee]

I don't want to repeat what anyone else said, so I'll just say that I think it's very reasonable if she decides at least in many cases who teaches her what, and when, and if. Obviously she doesn't have that choice in school, but I think she should have that choice for a lot of things. Like if she doesn't want help with a Bible verse, then I'd just drop it immediately rather than continuing the discussion and trying to talk her into it, because obviously that's just going to frustrate and annoy her. I understand why you said she was sounding rude because kids that age will sound rude when they're frustrated and annoyed, but avoiding situations that frustrate and annoy them when they're easily avoided is a big part of the solution. The other part is telling her how to decline help politely, and then accepting it when she declines help. If there's something that simply has to be done in some particular way, say for safety reasons, I'd just let it go and tell her you'll be ready to show her how when she wants to know, and disengage and leave the rest up to her. Also, if they're her clothes, I'd let her fold them how she wants. She might feel micromanaged about issues like that, which is just going to make her more frustrated and annoyed.

[2xy]

Children in our society spend most of their time being bossed around by adults. Maybe she wants/needs a break from that. She listens to other adults because she has little choice in the matter, and because her relationship with "teachers" is not one born of security. She knows that her family will love her no matter what, so she feels free to relax and be herself with you.

Also, nobody likes being made to feel helpless. Constantly giving advice and offering to teach can make a person feel like they're viewed as too simple to figure things out on their own. It can be offensive.

I'd like to add that I think "respect" is a word that's overused, and that many parents see any difference of opinion from their offspring as disrespect. I don't get it. I WANT my kids to think for themselves; don't you?