Does your frugalness cause you to be in contact with people from different income levels?

[HipGal]

If so, how do you handle it?

On one side, we keep a really tight budget and work hard keeping other costs low so that our kids can go to a private bilingual school. But most of the parents there are in a totally different financial situation (both parents working in high paying jobs, living in big houses in expensive cities, etc.). I don't know if the kids have really been affected yet, but it is sometimes intimidating to go to birthday parties at huge houses or hear people talk about their trips to Paris, new Mercedes, etc. I feel like we don't really "fit in" both in a financial sense and a priorities sense.

On the other side, our house is in a less expensive area. So when we do something out-of-the-norm it feels weird. Like we put in a play structure for the kids and I felt kind of guilty around my neighbor. Also the fact that the kids are going to private school is kind of weird around here and I'm sure people are wondering why we aren't sending them to the neighborhood public school (which is a good school). I'm worried they think we are being snobby or something.

Sometimes I wonder if we were more typical in our spending/saving, we might be around people who are closer to our income level. As it is we are in the middle and don't know many people in a similar boat. There was one other family we knew at the school that was at a similar income level (one parent working, the other staying home), but they are moving away.

Anyway, I was wondering if any of you had similar experiences on either end of the financial spectrum due to your spending/saving priorities.

[laohaire]

Yes, and I am frustrated at how taboo this topic is, so you can't even talk about it.

I actually typed out a bunch of stories but ultimately deleted them. I don't think they really added to the discussion, but the point is that - yes, due to our choices we have touchpoints with people who have both less than and more than we do, and it can be difficult on both ends.

[VisionaryMom]

Most of our friends make significantly less money than we do. DH is a systems architect and makes about twice what a two-income earning family does in a year. I make probably 1/2 what someone working full-time would make here, so total we're well above average. We do not look like it, and we don't live like it. I get the feeling that DH's co-workers wonder why we are so broke!

Many of our friends are artists and/or firmly-committed to left-wing/environmental/anti-capitalist causes. The end result is that few of them make much money. In many ways, we lucked out in that DH had computers in his home long before that was standard, so he wanted to go into a field that is lucrative by chance. I try to be careful about always being the one to pay or brush off expenses for various community projects we do. I have a tendency to say "oh, we'll pay for it" when it comes to, say, supplies for a community art project or coffee out while we're planning a fundraiser. I don't want to be seen as a) annoying and b) that person who's accepted only because she can pay for what the group's doing.

[sewaneecook]

To be completely honest, I wonder how many of those driving new Mercedes and living in large, lavish houses have actually paid cash for anything they "own." I've found that a lot of times those living like that are in debt over their heads in order to keep up appearances. In reality, a lot of those families are one paycheck away from living on the street!

We have a fantastic neighbor who has very similar financial goals and frugalness. Our way of keeping up with the Jones's is to see who can get the best deal!

[laohaire]

Originally Posted by sewaneecook

To be completely honest, I wonder how many of those driving new Mercedes and living in large, lavish houses have actually paid cash for anything they "own."

I hear ya, and I've read The Millionaire Mind and all that.

All the same, I couldn't even afford to make payments for a Mercedes or a large lavish house (even at 0% interest) so it's not crazy to assume that someone has more income than you do if they are driving nice vehicles and vacationing in Paris and your income just couldn't possibly support that even on credit.

Obviously how smart they are with their income is a whole 'nother topic.

Watching people squander money or live high in debt can cause just as many feelings as just being jealous that they actually have a lot. I know we're all supposed to be perfect and not be jealous but sometimes it is frustrating seeing people live a certain way when you cannot.

Even when you don't even aspire to wealth. I don't. For real. I still am not immune to being a bit dizzy when I see the way some people live (and I do see it firsthand sometimes, yup). I do not want a Mercedes and if you gave me one I'd sell it for the cash. But seeing someone who has a lot makes you think about how you could have or do XYZ with the same money.

[velochic]

I could have written your post almost word-for-word, including the private (in our case one-way language immersion, not bilingual) school. Probably the only difference is we do have a Mercedes (older, paid off) and do travel abroad each year (to see family, but we always take a week somewhere for us). But those are literally our only "splurges" and the car was bought specifically for my nervous nelly of a driver mother. She lives with us and drives dd around a lot, and she felt safest in this car. As with every other car we bought, we bought it gently used and paid cash.

In dd's school, there is actually quite a wide range of incomes, though. The majority of kids are on at least partial financial aid. But yes, there are families that have 5 kids in this school (at $13k a pop), drive brand new Mercedes, and live in the most affluent area of the city in $2mil homes. Of course usually these families have both parents that are physicians or attorneys or some such and many of them come from wealthy foreign families.

Dd's friend's mother is a physician, her father is a businessman of some sort and he brought her to our humble abode for a playdate in a spanking new Mercedes S550 (they cost nearly $100k). While talking with him, he offered the little tidbit that their dd is at the school on financial aid. I was thinking WTH??? Dh makes good money as a computer science professor, but nothing like they do... and we got turned down for FA. I finally came to the conclusion that they must be up to their eyeballs in debt and we, being savers, have a very nice nest egg. Comparing net worth, we are probably much, much more wealthy. We have in savings what they probably have in debt between their house, vehicles, and med school. It still doesn't seem fair, though, because we accumulated it honestly. We live SO FRUGALLY because we think it's the right thing to do. They are THE JONESES and get rewarded for it?? During the playdate, the little was the most rude, obnoxious, entitled child I have ever met. If that's what the Jonses are producing, I don't want it. I'll keep my 19", 15 year old TV, my 10 year old van, my 70 year old house, and my 55 year old, hard-working husband.

I forgot to say how I handle it. I'm not ashamed with the very rich and I don't feel I'm any better than those that are poorer than us... we treat everyone the same respect and expect the same in return. When it doesn't happen, we don't interact with those people willfully (but sometimes have to at school events). I've had it happen only once and this was not a person I would want to be friends with under any circumstances as she thinks she is better than everyone.

[HipGal]

I am glad I am not alone! I feel like I'm not really envious of most of the things I see (I wouldn't buy a huge house, even if I had the money. I definitely don't care what kind of car I drive, etc.). Though there are times that I need to remind myself. Even beyond the financial sides, I feel many of the families at school have different priorities than we do. Or maybe just a different definition of "success", kwim? The school itself and the teachers there are great, so the only problem is that we don't quite fit in with the other parents there.

I don't think most of the higher income parents are living beyond their means. They just have two large incomes. Some of them are older than us as well, so had more time to build up their careers, etc.

Right now the kids are young enough that they haven't really noticed the differences. They might note that one of their friends has a big house or a *really* big bathtub. But they still like things we can keep up with in terms of money (like they really liked someone's slip-n-slide!). I don't know what is going to happen when they are older and the discrepencies are harder to handle.

[seeing_stars]

We are in a slightly odd situation because we are in the position of doing well in comparison to most of our friends (students and young couples) but DS starts private school in the fall at a school that costs more than 1/3 of our household yearly income for tuition. DS's dad is extremely wealthy so he'll fit in if the playdate is at his dad's house but if we have a playdate here we'll look like paupers. It is so hard because DS already sees the extreme difference in lifestyle, one of his dad's cars is worth more than our 5 bedroom house is!

[Poddi]

Most people we know are fairly frugal even though they mostly have middle class income. My parents drive Mercedes that they bought with cash and live in a large house that's paid off. They're frugal in many other ways (i.e. they almost never use the A/C). My ILs have never bought anything that's not paid with cash (except their farm). I think it's the general habits and trend among people we know.

[CatsCradle]

Most people we know are fairly frugal even though they mostly have middle class income. My parents drive Mercedes that they bought with cash and live in a large house that's paid off. They're frugal in many other ways (i.e. they almost never use the A/C). My ILs have never bought anything that's not paid with cash (except their farm). I think it's the general habits and trend among people we know.

My parents are like this as well. My parents are very frugal and cautious in almost mindblowing ways, but they live in a very nice house and have a nice car, etc. They always have. My grandparents were the same way.

I also think it is error to assume that people who drive Mercedes and live in million dollar houses are up to their eyes in debt. This may be true for some, but I live in a town where people make insanely high incomes. My boss makes over $500k a year. He still lives in the same apartment that he and his wife bought years ago, but they sent both their kids to private schools and colleges. People have varying priorities.

My DD goes to private school and the income levels are varying - some people are doctors and others are public employees. DH and I make an okay salary, but we need to remain in our one-bedroom apartment for a while into the future because sending DD to this particular school is important to us...more important than where we live or the ability to others things that we did pre-DD. I know there are families at DD's school that are much in the same position. I don't know, I think that most people I know don't think about it too much (the income variances, that is). Maybe we're at an advantage because everyone here (or at least most) live in apartments and lots of people are car-free. There are rich people and poor people on every block. It is hard to tell the rich from the poor (generally speaking) unless you are traveling in very specific neighborhoods (very rich or very poor ones). I don't think it has anything to do with personal frugalness as much as exposure to a sheer abundance of people from varying walks of life.

[BookGoddess]

Originally Posted by Poddi

Most people we know are fairly frugal even though they mostly have middle class income. My parents drive Mercedes that they bought with cash and live in a large house that's paid off. They're frugal in many other ways (i.e. they almost never use the A/C). My ILs have never bought anything that's not paid with cash (except their farm). I think it's the general habits and trend among people we know.

:

My parents and both sets of grandparents are exactly like that. They are/were all incredibly frugal. My mom was an expert in reusing something long before it became vogue to reduce and recyle. My parents also have a brand new car, but it's fully paid for like all their previous cars, and they bought it through Costco so they saved some money too. And they never use A/C either. And they live somewhere where most people use A/C.

[ChristyMarie]

Doesn't everyone encounter those of other income levels on a regular basis? I don't think any of us live in enough of a bubble to not encounter those of other lifestyles and incomes. I think in any neighborhood people are going to have different income levels, different saving habits, different expenses. We cannot assume that everyone around us is the same just because we live in the same area, attend the same school, etc.

[p.s]

I'm trying to figure out how to best answer your question.... but what I really want to do is address why there is this issue in the first place. I guess I am wondering... why is this even an issue?

I was blessed with loving parents who were extremely frugal, but both earned throughout their life in the top 1%. also fortunate to have a very active metabolism, and have not needed for male attention. My parents were also though, very critical and have strong opinions on a person's ideal character.

So I learned very early... there is ALWAYS someone prettier, richer, and smarter.

Likewise, there are lots of people with LESS, so [you] should be extremely/eternally grateful for what you have.

Thus my mom would say, i.e. the logical consequence is... 1.) stop comparing; 2.) it doesn't matter.

phrased another way: Don't look at what you don't have. And be grateful for what you have.

What's left... to get to know people for who they are. I work in a field of medicine where the average salary is very very high, even for physicians. (though just to set the record I personally do not earn gobs) But I also work with orderlies and techs who earn their money by the hour. Shouldn't matter who makes what. I can be polite and nice to everyone. And I am quite sure I can still learn something from everyone.

so to figure out if the "kids are affected".... I would just ask them. Re: Paris, I would talk about the wonderful benefits of travel. But discuss the costs. Discuss budgets. Then point out the areas where you all CAN afford to go. And what you can enjoy on those travels. You can also get videos, for a peek at what you are "missing." And then, even if you can't afford Paris now, doesn't mean you or your kids will never be able to afford paris.
Which would then be a great segue into the concept of budget.
B/c even the person who lives in a $2 mil. house has a budget. Has limits. I can guarantee the $2 mil budget person knows what $5 mil can buy, and how much nicer the $5 mil house is.

I think this would be a great time.... opportunity to point out to your kids that:
they DO FIT.
and they DO BELONG.
They pay their tuition, so they belong just as much as anyone else. Point out that the standard is $xx for tuition.
Not that you have this house, or that vacation budget.
My parents made clear very early ... that those other things are "frogs" (my mom's words). Or frivolities. And for those who care, the country club serves as a good playground.
BUT otoh if it's important to someone....then that's okay too. It's their money. And it's not for me to judge. (....stop comparing....be grateful for what you have)

Why should you feel guilty for your play set? Did you steal it (of course not)? So you earned it. Why would you feel guilty if someone chooses not to to spend money the way you do? I am actually of the opinion that it's ridiculous for two next door houses to each have a very expensive play set. Not really frugal, huh?
Your neighbor may very well be able to afford 10 of those play structures, but chooses not to buy it. Or they may have told you that they couldn't afford it, but wish they could?
I guess I would have offered it as soon as we put it up... and saw our neighbors. --> Hey, we put this up for all the kids to play! PLEASE feel free to come play with your kids whenever you would like.
So then how could anyone be jealous? Or think you are snobby? Better for the neighborhood too if all the kids play together. Everybody looking out for each other.

I would make one last point: my kids will grow up in the family they are given... relatively frugal professional parents, deeply deeply frugal grandparents. They already know the concept of craigslist for a excellent car at a great price. One goes to Montessori, the other to a very expensive day care. They are very familiar with Whole Foods. They travel alot. A passport for the 19 mo ds2 is on the summer to-do list.
So if they are already very familiar with one lifestyle.... why would I only want them to know this one? I want them to meet people who are a bit more extravagant.... or even wasteful. So we can have those discussions of budget, money, debt woes. I am waiting for the day they see someone pay for groceries with food stamps... so we can have that discussion about public welfare. When they are a bit older, we will go to soup kitchens etc, to volunteer. Alot to learn from that experience. And not just how to volunteer.

The benefit of your life, in particular, is that your kids get exposed to so much more. (This is the whole point of travel anyways.)

[crunchy_mommy]

Yes but it's not a big deal.

Most of the people I associate with make considerably more than me & live a more... spendy... lifestyle. But at the same time, we are able to make larger investments that others around us can't -- i.e. we can buy an entire stash of cloth diapers at once, we recently remodeled our barely-functional kitchen, we buy our cars cash, etc. I assume it's because we have a lot in savings & don't mind making a big investment that will save us money over time.

We enjoy being frugal. We don't mind passing up on outings, trips, purchases, etc. because they don't fit into our budget. I don't care if my friends have a Mercedes or an in-ground pool or go to the spa once a week... good for them, I'm glad they enjoy it. I do think they have different priorities, but I am so far off from sharing priorities with people that I don't even blink. I guess what I'm saying is, my family is weird. There are almost no vegans around here (I've never met one in fact), not a ton of "crunchy" parents, very few devout Catholics our age, etc. We are different, and being uber-frugal is just one more way we're different. I don't mind being different & I don't feel bad that I don't fit in, and I hope that I can bring up my DS with those same values, and that he won't be afraid to do his own thing just because it makes him 'different'.

Sometimes people invite us to do things that don't fit into our budget. I can often make it work -- shop for an expensive-looking gift and spend very little, get library passes for reduced/free entrance to attractions, etc. -- but other times we have to decline. Then we make sure to invite them to do something down the line, and we make it a free but fun activity. I feel that most people around here are tolerant of & respectful of different income & spending levels, so I'm sure that makes a big difference!!

[Amys1st]

Originally Posted by sewaneecook

To be completely honest, I wonder how many of those driving new Mercedes and living in large, lavish houses have actually paid cash for anything they "own." I've found that a lot of times those living like that are in debt over their heads in order to keep up appearances. In reality, a lot of those families are one paycheck away from living on the street!

I agree completely. I have seen several families in my town and neighborhood in this place. A lot of them use the private schools too I might add.

I have noticed friends and family members who live life with champagne tastes but a koolaid budget and try to act like they are rolling in the dough. When in reality, my DH makes several $$$ more than they do. We live quite simply with 2 paid off cars (5 years plus) in a modest home, living quietly while saving for retirement, traveling off season, being frugal and green.

One thing I have noticed about several of these familes is everything and I mean everything is bought on plastic. They never have cash for anything.

[Ruthla]

I have friends with varying income levels. With the people I really "click" with, it's just not an issue. I've had some socially awkward moments with aquaintances, such as other moms at the local public school (back when I'd first moved in with my parents and they lived in a richer neighborhood.) I've had times when I felt completely out of place when a group of people were schmoozing and talking about upcoming vacations or vehicle purchases. I tend to avoid those kinds of situations now.

But with my actual friends, none of it matters.

[ltlmrs]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

I have friends with varying income levels. With the people I really "click" with, it's just not an issue. I've had some socially awkward moments with aquaintances, such as other moms at the local public school (back when I'd first moved in with my parents and they lived in a richer neighborhood.) I've had times when I felt completely out of place when a group of people were schmoozing and talking about upcoming vacations or vehicle purchases. I tend to avoid those kinds of situations now.

But with my actual friends, none of it matters.

This is the same for me too. I actually went to a private school on financial aid where most of the other kids were from wealthy families. We were immigrants living only on my dad's income, so even my uniform and dresses for school dances was second hand. With some girls this was an issue, others have been my dear friends since then.

I just tend to avoid people for whom my financial status is an issue one way or another (usually because they are wealthier and don't understand why I can't do things like fly across the country for a wedding or meet them in expensive restaurants).

Since we plan on homeschooling, I'm hoping this will be less of an issue for Ladybug.

[Happiestever]

Originally Posted by velochic

i forgot to say how i handle it. I'm not ashamed with the very rich and i don't feel i'm any better than those that are poorer than us... We treat everyone the same respect and expect the same in return.

wss!

[jtsmom]

Originally Posted by p.s

I'm trying to figure out how to best answer your question.... but what I really want to do is address why there is this issue in the first place. I guess I am wondering... why is this even an issue?

I was blessed with loving parents who were extremely frugal, but both earned throughout their life in the top 1%. also fortunate to have a very active metabolism, and have not needed for male attention. My parents were also though, very critical and have strong opinions on a person's ideal character.

So I learned very early... there is ALWAYS someone prettier, richer, and smarter.

Likewise, there are lots of people with LESS, so [you] should be extremely/eternally grateful for what you have.

Thus my mom would say, i.e. the logical consequence is... 1.) stop comparing; 2.) it doesn't matter.

phrased another way: Don't look at what you don't have. And be grateful for what you have.

What's left... to get to know people for who they are. I work in a field of medicine where the average salary is very very high, even for physicians. (though just to set the record I personally do not earn gobs) But I also work with orderlies and techs who earn their money by the hour. Shouldn't matter who makes what. I can be polite and nice to everyone. And I am quite sure I can still learn something from everyone.

so to figure out if the "kids are affected".... I would just ask them. Re: Paris, I would talk about the wonderful benefits of travel. But discuss the costs. Discuss budgets. Then point out the areas where you all CAN afford to go. And what you can enjoy on those travels. You can also get videos, for a peek at what you are "missing." And then, even if you can't afford Paris now, doesn't mean you or your kids will never be able to afford paris.
Which would then be a great segue into the concept of budget.
B/c even the person who lives in a $2 mil. house has a budget. Has limits. I can guarantee the $2 mil budget person knows what $5 mil can buy, and how much nicer the $5 mil house is.

I think this would be a great time.... opportunity to point out to your kids that:
they DO FIT.
and they DO BELONG.
They pay their tuition, so they belong just as much as anyone else. Point out that the standard is $xx for tuition.
Not that you have this house, or that vacation budget.
My parents made clear very early ... that those other things are "frogs" (my mom's words). Or frivolities. And for those who care, the country club serves as a good playground.
BUT otoh if it's important to someone....then that's okay too. It's their money. And it's not for me to judge. (....stop comparing....be grateful for what you have)

Why should you feel guilty for your play set? Did you steal it (of course not)? So you earned it. Why would you feel guilty if someone chooses not to to spend money the way you do? I am actually of the opinion that it's ridiculous for two next door houses to each have a very expensive play set. Not really frugal, huh?
Your neighbor may very well be able to afford 10 of those play structures, but chooses not to buy it. Or they may have told you that they couldn't afford it, but wish they could?
I guess I would have offered it as soon as we put it up... and saw our neighbors. --> Hey, we put this up for all the kids to play! PLEASE feel free to come play with your kids whenever you would like.
So then how could anyone be jealous? Or think you are snobby? Better for the neighborhood too if all the kids play together. Everybody looking out for each other.

I would make one last point: my kids will grow up in the family they are given... relatively frugal professional parents, deeply deeply frugal grandparents. They already know the concept of craigslist for a excellent car at a great price. One goes to Montessori, the other to a very expensive day care. They are very familiar with Whole Foods. They travel alot. A passport for the 19 mo ds2 is on the summer to-do list.
So if they are already very familiar with one lifestyle.... why would I only want them to know this one? I want them to meet people who are a bit more extravagant.... or even wasteful. So we can have those discussions of budget, money, debt woes. I am waiting for the day they see someone pay for groceries with food stamps... so we can have that discussion about public welfare. When they are a bit older, we will go to soup kitchens etc, to volunteer. Alot to learn from that experience. And not just how to volunteer.

The benefit of your life, in particular, is that your kids get exposed to so much more. (This is the whole point of travel anyways.)

Can you see in my profile how long I've been here at mdc? This is one of the best posts I've ever seen here. I'm almost tempted to print it out and reread it. Thank you.

[HipGal]

Originally Posted by p.s

I'm trying to figure out how to best answer your question.... but what I really want to do is address why there is this issue in the first place. I guess I am wondering... why is this even an issue?

I completely agree with you on a theoretical level. It shouldn't be an issue. Of course we treat everyone the same regardless of income level. It doesn't really matter to US. But I can tell that it affects their opinion of us from both sides. Why does their opinion of us matter? Because we see them every day. Their kids are our kids' peer group. The parents are the other adults I see on a daily basis. So it would be nice if we felt comfortable with them and they with us.

On a practical side, it does bring up some issues. Apparently the tooth fairy gave one of the kindergarten girls $20 for her tooth. So how does my son feel about the $2 he got? In his mind, it is the same tooth fairy, kwim?