Pancreas and Digestive Enzymes - Page 3

[farmerjess]

Reading along here. I found this article on actions/benefits gelatin/glycine and importance of dietary amino acid balancing and it really interested me.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by farmerjess

Reading along here. I found this article on actions/benefits gelatin/glycine and importance of dietary amino acid balancing and it really interested me.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml

Totally OT, but Ray Peat, last I know, operated in Eugene, OR.

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by Marnica

1mg (or 1 drop) should I be doing more?? He's getting folate from the thorne multis. Im up to 4 of the 6 at the moment. I have not done any mag support aside from some epsom salt baths here and there.

I'd work up to 3-5 drops of the hydroxy, just to see if you get benefit from going that high. If not, you could drop back down to 2-3. 4 of the thorne multi's is plenty, in my opinion. I'd stop there and add some separate mag (at a different time of day).

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Just wanted to share a quick update. Kids are both on Yasko's digestive enzymes (we didn't have issues starting them--they made DS's poop green for a few days, but no behavioral or rash-type stuff in either kid)... and in this time period, DD has gained about 3 pounds. She's never been small, she's height-weight proportionate toward the higher end of the growth curve, and either it's a coincidence, or it's been helpful enough that she still gained weight (from about 50 to about 53 pounds, she's 6y7m). DS has gained a bit less, maybe 1-2 pounds, so it's hard to know if that's typical growth or not.

I haven't checked since we got home, but DD started blinking more after we started the enzymes, so I'm assuming for now it's a protein digestion - tyrosine - dopamine thing, and an overall growth thing as well. Interesting, very very interesting.

That is interesting, Tanya. DS gained 4lbs when we started on the enzymes, and he was never small either. DD gained some, but not as much, and she was my small kid.

[stephienoodle]

PNO report: I've taken 1/2 tsp of PNO with a heavy snack 3 times now. Other meals I've still been taking my new enzymes (Energique Digestizyme Plus). I seem to be getting a little bit of die-off, but not nearly as bad as when I started the enzymes with pancreatin a few weeks ago. It did cause diarrhea in both me and DS (even though DS didn't take any directly, just was nursing) and I've had some slight swelling in my joints again. It is not having any effect on my appetite though... and I was kind of hoping that it would. My appetite decreased a bit when I started the Digestizyme, but I still am hungry a lot.

I was reading in another thread (maybe the "Why is ds reacting to me?" one... not sure) that somebody else had the experience of their kid finally starting to sleep through the night once they started enzymes with pancreatin. We're experiencing that! Over the last few months, DS has nursed 3-4 times on a good night and on a bad night has been latched on all night long. I started my new enzymes about 3 weeks ago and the nights after he has eaten more protein/fat with dinner, he's SLEEPING! 8 whole hours one night and we've had 2 nights now of 6 1/2 hours. Before the enzymes, if he had a dinner with more protein/fat it would make him sleep a little bit longer for the first stretch of the night... but something like 3-4 hours and then he'd be nursing the whole rest of the night.

Also... has anybody else gained weight since they started pancreatin-containing enzymes? I've put on about 7 or 8 pounds, which I don't need. I think a little bit of it might be inflammation from detoxing. I guess it does say that I'm absorbing more from my food though, particularly since I am eating a little bit less.

[Marnica]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

I'd work up to 3-5 drops of the hydroxy, just to see if you get benefit from going that high. If not, you could drop back down to 2-3. 4 of the thorne multi's is plenty, in my opinion. I'd stop there and add some separate mag (at a different time of day).

What specific benefits would I see as I go up on the b12? I had worked my way up to 5 of the thorne's....I can drop back down to 4. Especially since the 6 is for 4yrs and up! I didn't notice that until now. I would think 4 would be fine until he is older.

As for the mag, what form is the best and easiest to get a toddler to ingest? I have natural calm, but doubt he will take it. I also worry about what extra mag may do to his bowels. He already has issues with loose stool. This is what I was hoping the enzymes would help with this. Over the weekend I restarted the yasko enzymes. Sat was 1 sprinkle - no issues so Sunday I did 1 sprinkle at 2 meals. He did have a very runny BM, but he does anyway so im not sure it was related. No diaper rash anyway. I read posts about kids gaining weight after starting the enzymes. I hope this is the case for DS. I just have to figure out this poop thing! It has been 3 weeks since he had a "normal" poop.
If he takes extra mag, wouldn't that need to be balanced out with calcium? I noticed the thorne's have very little calcium and mag. DS does drink raw cow's milk and eats yogurt and cheese a few times a week. I wonder is that is enough?

Having insurance issues with some previous testing for DS (they are refusing to pay after telling me it was covered!) So I have to hold off on the Yasko test for now.

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by stephienoodle

I was reading in another thread (maybe the "Why is ds reacting to me?" one... not sure) that somebody else had the experience of their kid finally starting to sleep through the night once they started enzymes with pancreatin. We're experiencing that! Over the last few months, DS has nursed 3-4 times on a good night and on a bad night has been latched on all night long. I started my new enzymes about 3 weeks ago and the nights after he has eaten more protein/fat with dinner, he's SLEEPING! 8 whole hours one night and we've had 2 nights now of 6 1/2 hours. Before the enzymes, if he had a dinner with more protein/fat it would make him sleep a little bit longer for the first stretch of the night... but something like 3-4 hours and then he'd be nursing the whole rest of the night.

That was us. I was able to wean DS shortly after starting enzymes (this from a kid who still nursed 10-12x a day and never went more than 3-4 hours at night).

[QUOTE=Marnica;15665607]

What specific benefits would I see as I go up on the b12? I had worked my way up to 5 of the thorne's....I can drop back down to 4. Especially since the 6 is for 4yrs and up! I didn't notice that until now. I would think 4 would be fine until he is older.

As for the mag, what form is the best and easiest to get a toddler to ingest? I have natural calm, but doubt he will take it. I also worry about what extra mag may do to his bowels. He already has issues with loose stool.

B12 really depends - for us, it helped with moods/balance/language, but it's quite different for many people. Basically, do you notice any changes?

For mag, maybe try Epsom salts baths if you are concerned about bowel impacts, that absorbs straight through the skin.

[stephienoodle]

More PNO report:

I've stopped taking it. I think it was mobilizing more than my body could deal with... even though I was only taking 1/2 tsp once a day... and didn't do more than 3 days in a row. Yeast is suddenly a problem again (the big reason that I think all of this is metals). I'm having symptoms that I haven't had in years (since before I figured out my IgG issues)... resting tremor, neuralgia, listing to the right whenever I walk, etc. Not fun stuff. DS was also having more symptoms than normal... poop accidents (way not normal for him), peeing constantly and wetting the bed frequently, being irritable, pimples breaking out on his face.

It WAS starting to help calm my appetite... so it really stinks that I was having too much detox to handle. I want to be able to take it again at some point, but I think I'd like DS to be nursing less, have a better handle on what is going on with our detox pathways, and maybe have some things in place (clay, activated charcoal?) to help "mop up" the excess.

I want to get all of this junk out of my system... I just don't want to get so much worse in the process! I've got a call into my osteopath and homeopath... hoping that I'll hear back from them and maybe figure out what I can do to help now.

[mamafish9]

Steph, try less of the PNO - just sprinkle a drop or two per meal and work up. That way the detox happens at a slower rate, easier for you and your son to deal with it.

Also, my son's die off symptoms generally peak on day 3, so it's possible you were at the peak of it, and would see improvements if you stayed on it. Maybe go back on, but at 1/4tsp a day or less and see what that does?

[stephienoodle]

Well, one thing that I'm thinking is that I might get DS going on the PNO before I try it again. I'd give him at least a couple of weeks (maybe a month or two) and get him "ahead" so that when I start the PNO again, he'd be more ready to detox whatever my milk is passing on to him. When I start it for DS and then again for myself, it'll definitely be by the drop!

The neuro symptoms really freak me out, even moreso now that I'm a mom. DH had to take some time off of work yesterday to help me deal, and I had to turn DS down for nursing or cut him short many times yesterday because I was having so much trouble tolerating light touch. DH is going to be out of town for an entire week in two weeks... I need to get back to normal so I can function then. I just know that the road to my neuro problems is an ugly one... especially with flying solo in a couple of weeks, I can't afford to get worse.

[Marnica]

[QUOTE=mamafish9;15668822]That was us. I was able to wean DS shortly after starting enzymes (this from a kid who still nursed 10-12x a day and never went more than 3-4 hours at night).

Originally Posted by Marnica

B12 really depends - for us, it helped with moods/balance/language, but it's quite different for many people. Basically, do you notice any changes?

For mag, maybe try Epsom salts baths if you are concerned about bowel impacts, that absorbs straight through the skin.

Have been on vacation....thanks for responding!

I don't think I see anything really, but I think it's hard for me to figure out. Subtle changes may be happening but sometimes im not so sure. So maybe the short of it is...no no obvious changes.
I have been so bad with the enzymes...I keep forgetting. He seems to do ok with a sprinkle when I actually remember to give it.

[tanyalynn]

Got a question about digestive enzymes and bacteria/yeasts/whatever in the gut. The reactions that people are getting--is that, in part, the pancreatin killing bacteria/yeasts/etc? eta: and if it does, any place I can read more? I'd rather be killing off the weird stuff rather than, say, lactobacillus or other nice, helpful stuff.

I'm wondering, if I were concerned about gut balance, would giving a digestive enzyme _between_ meals help? Given that my kids didn't have negative behavioral/other health symptoms when starting the enzymes with meals. DS had green poop, which was very, very strange to see, but he didn't seem to feel bad or off, and he's been getting them with meals for a while.

I have no idea why DS's poop yesterday was really weird looking, just trying to get a few ideas if it continues. He's really whiny/fussy today, so maybe he's just dealing with a digestive illness that's low-level enough to not cause frank nausea or vomiting, but enough that he feels not-great.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Got a question about digestive enzymes and bacteria/yeasts/whatever in the gut. The reactions that people are getting--is that, in part, the pancreatin killing bacteria/yeasts/etc? eta: and if it does, any place I can read more? I'd rather be killing off the weird stuff rather than, say, lactobacillus or other nice, helpful stuff.

I'm wondering, if I were concerned about gut balance, would giving a digestive enzyme _between_ meals help? Given that my kids didn't have negative behavioral/other health symptoms when starting the enzymes with meals. DS had green poop, which was very, very strange to see, but he didn't seem to feel bad or off, and he's been getting them with meals for a while.

I have no idea why DS's poop yesterday was really weird looking, just trying to get a few ideas if it continues. He's really whiny/fussy today, so maybe he's just dealing with a digestive illness that's low-level enough to not cause frank nausea or vomiting, but enough that he feels not-great.

In theory, I think the pancreatin is improving the gut environment, so that should translate into killing bad and keeping good. I hope! I still don't understand what exactly is going on, but now you have me wondering again, thanks The first path I want to chase down is the pancreatin activating other endogenous digestive enzymes.

My big reactions come from increasing dose or taking them too early before a meal, or with a smaller-than-anticipated meal. If you want to experiment with gut clean up, maybe try a full dose with a small snack?

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Given that my kids didn't have negative behavioral/other health symptoms when starting the enzymes with meals. DS had green poop, which was very, very strange to see, but he didn't seem to feel bad or off, and he's been getting them with meals for a while.

More proof that it's a good thing I'm writing stuff down and not relying on my memory! Went re-reading through my DS's thread and yeah, there WAS a behavioral reaction when starting the enzymes. Not earth-shattering, I think a day or two of hyperactivity/crankiness, but noticeable. But the point stands, I started him on a full cap with his meals, not sure if it was just 1 meal/day or all three, and the reaction was fairly minor and transient.

Originally Posted by whoMe

In theory, I think the pancreatin is improving the gut environment, so that should translate into killing bad and keeping good. I hope! I still don't understand what exactly is going on, but now you have me wondering again, thanks The first path I want to chase down is the pancreatin activating other endogenous digestive enzymes.

My big reactions come from increasing dose or taking them too early before a meal, or with a smaller-than-anticipated meal. If you want to experiment with gut clean up, maybe try a full dose with a small snack?

Thanks Shannon, that's helpful. I am feeling very torn in terms of where to put my attention. I want to be doing more stuff with the kids, some of which takes planning, and then I feel like I'm failing at balancing DH's needs, DS's needs, and DD's needs, plus trying to finish up the mobilizing metals part of my own health improvements (with a somewhat firm deadline of Oct/Nov--I really don't want to push it long past that, so I can't slack on myself too much). Too many things to learn and then figure out how to apply to too many people. In some ways, I feel like this is really kicking my behind lately. But yeah--give it 2 days to see what poop looks like, then I will consider enzymes with snack (I've just been doing 3/day for each kid, skipping afternoon snack altogether).

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Got a question about digestive enzymes and bacteria/yeasts/whatever in the gut. The reactions that people are getting--is that, in part, the pancreatin killing bacteria/yeasts/etc? eta: and if it does, any place I can read more? I'd rather be killing off the weird stuff rather than, say, lactobacillus or other nice, helpful stuff.

My guess, from what I've seen in DS, is that the pancreatin means better digested food = better gut environment = starves the bad gut bugs that thrive in guts with lots of partially digested, fermenting food.

My daughter and I had very little reaction, if any, to taking pancreatic enzymes. I don't think they benefited me either, but definitely benefited her. I don't think she has gut bug issues though. I do have mild issues, but it's yeast, and the problem isn't undigested food, it's the amount of sugar I consume .

So I don't think the pancreatic enzymes kill of gut flora directly. I think they better digest food, and IF that was the source of someone's poor gut flora, then the pancreatic enzymes cause plenty of die off, but it's indirectly.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

So I don't think the pancreatic enzymes kill of gut flora directly. I think they better digest food, and IF that was the source of someone's poor gut flora, then the pancreatic enzymes cause plenty of die off, but it's indirectly.

If it's just better digested food, though, then wouldn't there be similar stuff from plant enzymes? I spent a year on lots of plant enzymes a few years ago, and never got any of this.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

My guess, from what I've seen in DS, is that the pancreatin means better digested food = better gut environment = starves the bad gut bugs that thrive in guts with lots of partially digested, fermenting food.

My daughter and I had very little reaction, if any, to taking pancreatic enzymes. I don't think they benefited me either, but definitely benefited her. I don't think she has gut bug issues though. I do have mild issues, but it's yeast, and the problem isn't undigested food, it's the amount of sugar I consume .

So I don't think the pancreatic enzymes kill of gut flora directly. I think they better digest food, and IF that was the source of someone's poor gut flora, then the pancreatic enzymes cause plenty of die off, but it's indirectly.

As the main effect, that seems plausible, but people seem to have reactions when they take one without any food to go along with it. Seems like it's doing something in the absence of food--I just don't know what would happen if there's not enough food around to match the amount of enzymes consumed.

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by whoMe

If it's just better digested food, though, then wouldn't there be similar stuff from plant enzymes? I spent a year on lots of plant enzymes a few years ago, and never got any of this.

Based on DS' diapers, plant enzymes (even strong ones) don't do NEARLY the job of digesting food that the pancreatic enzymes do. On a full cap of digest gold + extra NoFenol (specifically targeted to digest cellulose), we still saw raisins come out as whole grapes, carrot puree come out orange, nuts and seeds come out whole, brown rice husks come out whole. All of that is far better on the pancreatic enzymes. It's unusual now for me to know what he ate based on his poop.

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

As the main effect, that seems plausible, but people seem to have reactions when they take one without any food to go along with it. Seems like it's doing something in the absence of food--I just don't know what would happen if there's not enough food around to match the amount of enzymes consumed.

Guessing that would be pH? I think you'd get stimulation of some digestive stuff in the small intestine anyhow, and guessing it affects downstream pH.

[Theloose]

Still... If it were just digesting food better, then skipping a meal would cause similar die off, wouldn't it? And why would that first tiny sprinkle be so painful? I like the pH idea, but haven't found a mechanism yet. I want to read more about trypsin and what other enzymes it activates. But first, there's life to keep up with.

I suppose here is as good a place as any to muse.

I added in the PNO a couple weeks ago. On average, I'm getting 1tsp, twice a day. At first there was the usual die off stuff. Now we're in no fun reaction land yet again. It's different symptoms, though - dd and ds are affected way more than me and I can't put a finger on what it is. For dd, it's like she needs folate, or mag, or something. But is missing her usual low mag bedwetting and noise sensitivity. I think I've been too hopeful that we were close to the end, so I've been having fun with ferments (that I used to be able to eat in quantity, no prob) and playing with b12 drops (again, never noticed any b12 reaction, and consistently test good/high and don't have weird b12 genetics). Oh, and I just switched to a food based b complex. The current behavior is way too much for me, though, so I'm trying to get back to stable, but since I don't know what's causing it, its hard to know what to change. Whatever it is, now, rather than being waaaaaay too sensitive to what foods I eat, it seems I'm waaaaaay to sensitive to gut healing measures. I think that's progress, though?

[Theloose]

Are bile salts something that would likely cause a detox reaction for someone like me, or are they mostly good? If they lead to improved fat digestion and me not needing to eat so much liver, I'm thinking they're worth it! Maybe even just with liver meals... hmm... Anything in particular to look for when choosing a brand?

[mamafish9]

I just picked bile salts off iherb, and tried to find one without any other stuff added I didn't want.

One other note on the Yasko enzymes - I was comparing them to pancreatic enzymes on iherb, and the Yasko enzymes have a HUGE amount of papain (papaya enzyme). That may be why they're causing die off between meals, papain is a protease. It's also very effective against strep and other bad gut bacteria. So some people may see impact from the papain, rather than (or rather than just) the pancreatin in her enzymes.