A bit of a spinoff: When is a C-sec essential? - Page 5

[lollaleeloo]

Quite honestly, it never occurred to me to do either, but then, I was led to believe that the main thing standing between me and another c-section was the pitocin.

[pumpkinhead]

lollaleeloo,

How awful! It irritates me how keen the medical profession is to lump every woman into the same category. AS in, what works for one, will work for ALL! We all have different body chemistries. We are ALL DIFFFERENT!!

I think if your body and your baby are *truly* ready to be in labour, it won't really matter what you use to 'kickstart' it, it will work. (Wating another while will prob work as well, but that's a dif. story )My own personal belief (based on no medical fact whatsoever ) is that those women who aren't 'ready' are the ones who end up with C/S no matter what interventions are used to induce or augment labour.

Of course, this is *not* the only reason a woman might end up having a c/s.

[kama'aina mama]

You are right, of course pumpkinhead. "Failed induction" is one of the leading contributors to C-section rates being so high. If the baby is really not ready to be born it's like an unripe fruit on the tree... shake all you want it is likely to hang on. Of course when they induce they often break the waters so then you are committed one way or another.

[Susu]

not about pit

Originally posted by kama'aina mama
Has anyone read Ina May's new book? She talks about a midwife in the Netherlands who practiced from 1693-1745 named Schrader. Of the just over 3000 births she attended 10 were placenta previa and in 8 of those cases she was able to deliver a live baby to a live mother. It's astonishing really!

I am not advocating attempting vaginal birth with a previa, just noting this amazing accomplishment.

that is amazing. i want to read this book now. however if i was told there was a 25% chance my baby would die if i tried birthing vaginally, i'd go the surgical route.

i might also add that in so many of these types of statistics they only record who lives and who doesn't. what is difficult to count are the living babies who suffered a brain injury because of lack of oxygen on the way out.

Originally posted by stafl
I think what bothers me the most is the language used. Saying that a c-section, in retrospect, was or was not necessary does absolutely no good. What I think we should be discussing is whether or not c-sections are avoidable instead.

i'm not sure i understand this. okay, for every instance that is listed in pumpkin's original list i'm sure that there is someone who birthed vaginally with each one and everyone turned out just fine. that's an interesting discussion too and perhaps someone can start yet another thread on this subject, however i am quite happy with the original tone and intent of this thread.

[applejuice]

CPD - cephalopelvic disproportion

or Chicago Police Department

I recall reading *somewhere* that the only true case of cephalopelvic disproportion results from a case of rickets, which is rarely seen these days, or extreme pelvic injury as from a car accident.

[copslass]

That is not true, about cpd being so rare and only due to rickets, etc. I know LOTS of women whose drs have told them they'll never get a normal to large sized baby out!
And I *know I have cpd, because my doctor TOLD me I have it during my second c-section! He told (actually, screamed at) me that my babies and I would have DIED without a cesarean!

...Of course, I didn't have it with my midwives when I pushed my third, fourth, and fifth children into the world... ROFL


This is a tongue-in-cheek (but true,) post for anyone wondering...

[lollaleeloo]

Copslass, it's a shame they don't have a high-five smilie.

[pumpkinhead]

Originally posted by copslass
And I *know I have cpd, because my doctor TOLD me I have it during my second c-section! He told (actually, screamed at) me that my babies and I would have DIED without a cesarean!

...Of course, I didn't have it with my midwives when I pushed my third, fourth, and fifth children into the world... ROFL

:LOL :LOL :LOL

Good to know.

[Greaseball]

Yes, the human pelvis is remarkable. Although it's often too small to birth a 7-lb baby, for some reason it will be big enough for a 10-lb baby in the future.

I think it comes with the unacceptable sizes stamped on it, or something. Or maybe it periodically expands and shrinks, just to play a joke on us.

[Kari_mom]

But isn't part of the conundrum about CPD is that it can really only be diagnosed at the time of birth? In the absence of the conditions cited above, rickets or pelvic injury, from what I understand it can't be diagnosed with xrays or exams, because the pelvis changes so dramatically during birth.

And couldn't the diagnosis change from one pregnancy to another, as the mother's body changes and of course, her babies are not all identical. For example, a 42 week delivery in a first time mom might be CPD, where the same woman could deliver her third at 38 weeks easily. Even if the baby is bigger, its head might mold more, and her pelvis stretched out more. ( This is just a generality, I am sure there are women who have had the opposite experience.)

I do think that it is overdiagnosed, and that the majority of cases are probably nothing more than the baby in a less than ideal presentation. But it does seem to me that it is impossible to second guess this accurately. The mistake OBs and women make, IMO, is to not try again with subsequent births. An open-minded, supportive caregiver is pretty essential as well.

[applejuice]

So, copslass, is your CPD now cured?

I am happy for you that your third, fourth, and fifth VBAC babies restored your faith in yourself.

[Pynki]

i don't know guys..

I haven't been able to get a babe out all on my lonesome yet.. If I had maybe dh would be open to a HB, but I don't know because it hasn't happened..

I don't think my pelvis IS big enough.. DS1 was a c/s for breech.. The OB on call said i would always have c/s because my uterus is mis-shapen.. She was wrong.. I've had 2 vbacs now, BUT both of them required help on the exit.. DS2 required forcept because after 4 hrs of pushing and 18 hrs of labor.. I didn't have it in me to push anymore.. He was a high forcepts delivery, and i was just glad he wasn't another c/s... Our latest Ds3 was helped with a vaccuum at the very end.. I probably could have done it, but his tones were decelerating, and not rebounding after the contractions..

Maybe one day I will have a birth that doesn't require help.. It's possible.. Millions of generations of women have done it I know.. I also think that in previous generations.. I would have been one of those women that died..

I know alot of members roll their eyes at sentiment like that, but you are not me, and you have not had my births..

You do not live the lives of women who are told they have CPD.. Or a mis-shapen uterus.. If I didn't have such a VBAC supportive OB.. I would have had another c/s.. And it wouldn't have been neccesary.. I'm glad it was "avoidable" the 2nd and 3rd time..

I NEVER judge a woman for her birth... It does no good to tell someone after the fact.. Well you know.. You really didn't need to have a c/s..

If you felt you needed one, then you probably did..

Babe awake..

Warm Squishy Feelings..

Dyan

[Greaseball]

I've had 2 vbacs now, BUT both of them required help on the exit..

If there is room to get the forceps in, there is room to get the baby out. (NOT meant to be judgmental! ) Most likely you were just exhausted.

My first was a low-forceps delivery after a 38-hour labor that included 4 hours of pushing. I'm having a homebirth with #2 and I know the same thing is not going to happen again. It had nothing to do with my pelvic size, it had to do with forced pushing - being told that if I didn't start pushing immediately, the baby would creep farther and farther up, and every time I rested between pushing I had to hear how far up the baby was climbing, so I really wore myself out. If I was allowed to push only when I felt the urge and encouraged to rest in between, I would have had the energy I needed. I've also learned that it's normal for the baby to retreat a bit between pushes.

Of course, I don't know what your birth experience was like, but you probably do not have an abnormal body.

[Al Dente]

T At another board I'm a regular on, which shall remain nameless, 5 out of the 6 women who have been induced (early, I might add, in all cases) ended up with c-sections. I'm one of the last left without a babe because I refuse to be induced-although it's been brought up at the last 2 appts. But I admit to being scared by the scare tactics, kwim? The stillbirth rates and all that, and you can bet the OB has brought them up.

Now...on the other hand, I think my babe has turned transverse again. So I have no problem deciding to have a section at this point if he is...because I've done absolutely everything I can (herbs, chiro, accu, exercises) to get him to turn.

But to have an (almost certain) section because you want the babe to be out earlier? Well of course no one likes the last couple weeks of pregnancy, they are miserable! But why put your body through that unless there is a documented medical reason?

Just my .02

[Peppamint]

Originally posted by Greaseball
How is the pit connected? Can't the patient turn it off, or pull out her IV?

If I did that I would paint the walls with my blood! With my dd's hospital birth I had bruises on the backs of my hands, insides of my wrists and arms where they tried to get the IVs in. Blew lots of veins!

[Peppamint]

Originally posted by RacheePoo
T At another board I'm a regular on, which shall remain nameless, 5 out of the 6 women who have been induced (early, I might add, in all cases) ended up with c-sections. I'm one of the last left without a babe because I refuse to be induced-although it's been brought up at the last 2 appts. But I admit to being scared by the scare tactics, kwim? The stillbirth rates and all that, and you can bet the OB has brought them up.

I noticed that when I was posting on a board like that. I finally left because I couldn't take the postnatal weaning at 2 weeks and Ezzo stuff... but anyway... the other gals due the same week as I were all induced early. The were going nuts at 36 weeks and already planning to ask for their inductions.

[nissa]

I am new to this forum, this is actually the first topic I picked to read and I read every bit of it with relish! Thank you all for discussing this topic which has been so difficult for me to work through. This is the first time I've encountered an open honest discussion about c-s and pitocin induction. I usually have the feeling that the only acceptable way to discuss c-s in AP circles is to focus on avoiding, preventing, listing the risks and dangers, which leaves me feeling as if sharing my own experience would be unwelcome. So thanks for starting this discussion, and to everyone who contributed. It gives me peace. I look forward to checking out the rest of these forums!

I would like to add one reason to plan a c-s to the original list, because it is my experience, and becasue it was so lonely when she was a newborn and no one seemed to have heard of it. It is Birth injury. My daughter was born at 42 weeks after 48hours of pitocin with nerve damage to her right shoulder (called Brachial Plexus Injury because of the nerves involved). This was the result of the maneuvers the midwife used to release her shoulder when it was stuck during delivery (shoulder dystocia) The birth itself was traumatic for me, especially because I did not know for several minutes if my daughter had survived, and after I realized she was ok a paralyzed arm at first seemed minor to me. Over the years (she is 5) she has recovered beautifully through physical therapy, but some degree of nerve damage is permanent, and it certainly has not been easy taking her to therapy since she was two weeks old, and recently having her put under general anesthesia for a MRI of the shoulder. The point of this is, I chose to have a c-section when I was pregnant with my son. Not everyone in my situation does, but there is an increased chance of repeat injury which I was not willing to risk. Surgery was certainly not fun, especially armed as I was with so much info about the risks, and it was painful as well becase I had to give up my life long desire for a natural birth. But my son's c-s birth is the birth I remember as the fabulous moment when a healthy pink baby entered my life, just like a dream come true.

Thanks again,

Nissa:

[pumpkinhead]

Re: i don't know guys..

Originally posted by Pynki


I know alot of members roll their eyes at sentiment like that, but you are not me, and you have not had my births..

You do not live the lives of women who are told they have CPD.. Or a mis-shapen uterus.. If I didn't have such a VBAC supportive OB.. I would have had another c/s.. And it wouldn't have been neccesary.. I'm glad it was "avoidable" the 2nd and 3rd time..

I NEVER judge a woman for her birth... It does no good to tell someone after the fact.. Well you know.. You really didn't need to have a c/s..

If you felt you needed one, then you probably did..

Babe awake..

Warm Squishy Feelings..

Dyan

Dear Dyan,

I have NEVER told a woman that she didn't really 'need' a c-sec. As someone has already said on this thread (maybe it was you, I can't exacly remember ) most c/s are necessary but some are also avoidable. As in, ESSENTIAL at the time it was conducted but the steps and interventions leading up to the event may have been avoidable. Yk? Ultimately it should always be the Mama's descision. WE have to do what we feel is best for our children and ourselves with the information we are given, right?

The problem here, in my HUMBLE opinion, is MISINFORMATION. WE are constantly told by our husbancds, relatives and Doctors that we CANNOT do something! "You can't push a baby out with a pelvis that small", "If you don't give that child antibotics he'll go deaf!", "if you don't vaccinate that baby he'll infect the rest of the modern world with Diptheria!!!", "If you don't circumcise that baby his penis will start growing green fungus and fall off" and so on and so forth...

If an OB or a midwife with much experience in catching babies tells a woman she can't birth vaginally, well, if she is of lesser experience (esp first time Mama's) she's prob going to believe them, whether it is accurate or not. She'll forever doubt her ability to birth a babe vaginally. This affects every ASPECT of labour and delivery! A woman's state of mind and ability to relax are very important when giving birth and if you always have "The Doctor told me I couldn't do this" in the back of your mind, how can you relax?

In the births I have heard of thru friends, my own, and those (only 2 ) I have witnessed, it has been my experience that how a woman labours and how the pushing phase is managed has more to do with how babe is born than the size of a woman's pelvis.

We are ALL different and each babe and birth is DIFFERENT! How dare someone try to tell us that we will ALWAYS have to give birth one way?! There are always extenuating circumstances and there are lots of good reasons why a Mama shouldn't even attempt a vaginal birth.

I guess that's more of what I was getting at when I started this thread. What are the reasons why a Mama shouldn't even attempt to birth vaginally. I don't think there are a lot, but there are some.

Again, I would like to reiterate that no one has any right to pass judgement on a Mama for a well thought out descision to have a c/s she felt was in the best interest for her child! No ONE!!


I have to say (if I haven't already) that I have and am thoroughly enjoying this discussion! There has been virtually no malice and everyone has been very respectful of one another. I have and am learning lots! Thanks so much ladies!

[Peppamint]

Re: Re: i don't know guys..

Originally posted by pumpkinhead
If an OB or a midwife with much experience in catching babies tells a woman she can't birth vaginally, well, if she is of lesser experience (esp first time Mama's) she's prob going to believe them, whether it is accurate or not. She'll forever doubt her ability to birth a babe vaginally. This affects every ASPECT of labour and delivery! A woman's state of mind and ability to relax are very important when giving birth and if you always have "The Doctor told me I couldn't do this" in the back of your mind, how can you relax?

Too true. This happened to me to a certain degree. Having given birth a second time and rethinking through my first birth... I truly believe I was ready to push long before I was told I was fully dialated. I kept feeling pushy and feeling the need to be upright (because I was induced I was supposed to stay in bed ) and I heard the nurse tell my mom it would be dinnertime before I gave birth. My mom knew better and was so angry that the nurse said that, especially in my hearing. I was actually fighting against my body's natural urge to push because I thought it wasn't time yet because of what the nurse said. BTW, that was around 1pm and my dd was born at 3:34pm (It took 30 minutes to push her out on my back).

My second birth I went from 9cm to ds in my arms in just 1/2 hour... I was trusting my body to do it's job that time!