5 year old refuses to potty train

[Angelplum]

My 5 year old DD WILL NOT even attempt to poo in the potty. She's been peeing in the potty since she was 3 or so, but when she needs to poo she insists on using a pull-up. If we say no, she just won't go at all and gets horribly constipated. When she was younger, she was constipated a lot, and so going in the potty was difficult for her. She's much better now, but I guess she still has fear or something, or maybe pull-ups are just comfortable for her.

We've tried promising rewards, threatening her with "you can't do this or that unless you poo in the potty", but she says she can't do it.

I'm so frustrated. I don't want to force her, but how long can this go on? Should I take her to the doctor? What else can we do?

[JSerene]

Take a look at her anus. Make sure there are no tears. If she's constipated, the stools may be too big and cause pain, or rips. There may be something going on here that she's not able to articulate. Not all 5 year olds are quite able to describe pain well, for instance.

I'd take her to the doctor.

[Angelplum]

Ok, I can look at her to check, but I'm sure if it hurt she would tell me. She has no problem talking about pain.

One weird thing is that she goes standing up in her pull-up, not squatting like most kids do. So, I think sitting down on the potty feels strange for her.

[GoBecGo]

Check she doesn't have anal fissures. My DD had them (and a similar fear/holding/constipation/pain/fear pattern) just before she turned 3. She would sit on the toilet then as soon as the poo began to come leap up because the feeling against the fissure was so painful - she seemed to find it less painful if she stood up, perhaps because the area was less stretched than when she was sitting on the loo or squatting low on a potty.

We cured it by giving syrup of figs every day for several weeks, using nappies still, until her fissures were healed and it had been long enough that it didn't hurt anymore and she'd forgotten how much it had hurt, then reduced the dose over a few days to nothing. Fissures can take a while to heal even when you're no longer constipated, and even one hard poo every couple of weeks can re-open the wound over and over.

[Heavenly]

I would take her to the doctor. A 5 year old who can't poop in the potty is beyond the realm of normal IMO.

[Angelplum]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

Check she doesn't have anal fissures. My DD had them (and a similar fear/holding/constipation/pain/fear pattern) just before she turned 3. She would sit on the toilet then as soon as the poo began to come leap up because the feeling against the fissure was so painful - she seemed to find it less painful if she stood up, perhaps because the area was less stretched than when she was sitting on the loo or squatting low on a potty.

We cured it by giving syrup of figs every day for several weeks, using nappies still, until her fissures were healed and it had been long enough that it didn't hurt anymore and she'd forgotten how much it had hurt, then reduced the dose over a few days to nothing. Fissures can take a while to heal even when you're no longer constipated, and even one hard poo every couple of weeks can re-open the wound over and over.

How do you make syrup of figs?

Also, wouldn't anal fissures bleed?

[JSerene]

Originally Posted by Angelplum

Also, wouldn't anal fissures bleed?

Not necessarily. I'd for sure rule this out before thinking along the lines of a behavior issue.

[GoBecGo]

I bought it from a health food store - there are brands with senna and brands without, so if you want to avoid senna do check the ingredients. I had a fissure after a sexual assault which bled very minimally but hurt for literally years.

[LuxPerpetua]

I think it's the stand-up pooing. My 4.5 yo dd is the SAME way and does the same thing. We've never denied her a diaper (we don't even do the pull-up thing) when she needs to poop or done any rewards or punishments (we follow Alfie Kohn on this). She just isn't interested in pooping on the toilet right now. She isn't constipated and never has trouble pooping. The only thing I can think of is that she's just used to going standing up. I'm just going to wait it out. Eventually she'll go. I have a friend with 5 kids who had one son who didn't poop on the toilet until 6 because he was also a stand-up pooper. To me, I just don't see it as a big deal. It isn't like she's going to be doing this in college. My plan is just to gently encourage her to try it as she gets older and then if that doesn't work 2 things will happen: She'll outgrow the diapers and she'll be old enough to reason better and understand things better. I wish I could help but I wanted to offer the empathetic response of it not being unheard of and to also say that there is probably nothing medically wrong. I consider it great that my dd, since she homeschools and has no peer pressure, has options that many other kids don't have, including deciding on her own time-table when she wants to do things like poop on the toilet. But I also have no pressing reasons for caring if my child can do this or not, as it really doesn't affect us much at all.

[Angelplum]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

I bought it from a health food store - there are brands with senna and brands without, so if you want to avoid senna do check the ingredients. I had a fissure after a sexual assault which bled very minimally but hurt for literally years.

I'm so sorry you had to go through that! How awful!

I couldn't find the syrup at the health food store, so I bought some dried figs to try to eat it.

[Angelplum]

Originally Posted by LuxPerpetua

I think it's the stand-up pooing. My 4.5 yo dd is the SAME way and does the same thing. We've never denied her a diaper (we don't even do the pull-up thing) when she needs to poop or done any rewards or punishments (we follow Alfie Kohn on this). She just isn't interested in pooping on the toilet right now. She isn't constipated and never has trouble pooping. The only thing I can think of is that she's just used to going standing up. I'm just going to wait it out. Eventually she'll go. I have a friend with 5 kids who had one son who didn't poop on the toilet until 6 because he was also a stand-up pooper. To me, I just don't see it as a big deal. It isn't like she's going to be doing this in college. My plan is just to gently encourage her to try it as she gets older and then if that doesn't work 2 things will happen: She'll outgrow the diapers and she'll be old enough to reason better and understand things better. I wish I could help but I wanted to offer the empathetic response of it not being unheard of and to also say that there is probably nothing medically wrong. I consider it great that my dd, since she homeschools and has no peer pressure, has options that many other kids don't have, including deciding on her own time-table when she wants to do things like poop on the toilet. But I also have no pressing reasons for caring if my child can do this or not, as it really doesn't affect us much at all.

I'm so glad we're not the only ones who've had to deal with this! DD just turned 5 a month ago, so she's not too much older than yours.

I never understood the stand-up thing...I've never seen another kid go standing up.

Does your DD clean herself up afterwards? Or does she expect you to do it?

[LuxPerpetua]

I still clean her up. We do a normal diaper change on a mat and all unless we're out and about and I just have her stand near the public toilet and wipe her standing. I know I didn't wipe myself until I was at least 6 or 7, so it isn't something I expect at this age--not to mention, I'd worry she wouldn't do it thoroughly.

[eepster]

For some kids, it's the sensation of the poop falling away that scares them. For this, you can gradually acclimate her to using the potty. First pooping in front of the potty with the diaper on; then pooping while leaving back against the potty with the diaper on; then while sitting on the potty, while still wearing the diaper; then with the diaper on the seat to catch the poop; then with the diaper down inside the potty to catch the poop; then finally no diaper.

[Angelplum]

Originally Posted by LuxPerpetua

I still clean her up. We do a normal diaper change on a mat and all unless we're out and about and I just have her stand near the public toilet and wipe her standing. I know I didn't wipe myself until I was at least 6 or 7, so it isn't something I expect at this age--not to mention, I'd worry she wouldn't do it thoroughly.

We used to clean DD up, but recently, we have her do the initial wiping, then we follow behind and make sure she's clean.

In the past, she would put on her pullup, watch tv while she goes, then tell us she's ready to get cleaned up. Then we would do all the cleaning for her. I thought maybe we're making it too comfortable for her...I mean I don't get to watch tv while I'm on the toilet! So we banned her from the living room while she's going. And I was hoping once she saw how gross the clean-up is, she would want to go on the toilet, so there's less mess. But, it doesn't seem to make any difference.

[Angelplum]

Originally Posted by eepster

For some kids, it's the sensation of the poop falling away that scares them. For this, you can gradually acclimate her to using the potty. First pooping in front of the potty with the diaper on; then pooping while leaving back against the potty with the diaper on; then while sitting on the potty, while still wearing the diaper; then with the diaper on the seat to catch the poop; then with the diaper down inside the potty to catch the poop; then finally no diaper.

We might try that!

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by LuxPerpetua

I still clean her up. We do a normal diaper change on a mat and all unless we're out and about and I just have her stand near the public toilet and wipe her standing. I know I didn't wipe myself until I was at least 6 or 7, so it isn't something I expect at this age--not to mention, I'd worry she wouldn't do it thoroughly.

Seriously? 6 or 7? My 4 year old wipes herself, they all did by that age. How do you send your kids to school when they can't go to the bathroom alone? I don't mean this in a rude way at all but it is obviously you only have one child because by the time you get more kids in the mix you don't have the time to run and wipe a child's bottom every time they go to the bathroom.

[GoBecGo]

My 4yo wipes herself. About once a week she doesn't do a thorough job, but it's never a terrible mess and unless she's ill and has diahorea i don't clean her up, i just tend to notice she's a bit stinky when i'm putting her in the bath. 6 or 7 seems old to me, i did have to be able to get to the loo myself reliably when i was starting chool at 4.5.

I was only just thinking about this today, because i have a 1month old LO, and one of the things my older DD "forgot" when the baby ccame was how to go to the toilet alone. I took it as her own little protest at how much of my time for her is suddenly restricted, she seems to be over it again now.

I wonder if you could ask her to put the pull-up on herself, stand in the bathroom to go, and then do the clean up herself - it might take a while to learnthe whole procedure, but i guess in your shoes i'd mind a lot less if it wasn't adding to my work. Would you prefer if she could just take care of it all herself? Or is the cost of the pull ups an issue?