"Why don't they just sterilize her?"

[mamagi]

If another "well meaning" person asks me this question about my foster & adopted kids' mother I don't know what I'm going to do.

[curliemama]

I sympathize. Just chalk it up to ignorance. HUGS

[Diane B]

Yeah, when someone found out my daughter's birth mother had placed another child for adoption after my daughter, she said to me, "Why doesn't someone give her some birth control?"

Ouch.

People's lack of empathy is stunning, isn't it?

[2xy]

I guess you can place me in the "ignorant" category.

While I don't advocate forced sterilization, I'd like someone to explain what we're supposed to feel empathetic about? I understand accidents happen (DS1 was not planned; I was on the pill when I got pregnant with him)....but two surrendered babies in a row? I don't get it. No flames, please....I'm not trying to antagonize. I really don't get it. Thanks.

[RedOakMomma]

I don't know if this is everyone's take on it, but people aren't cats and dogs for us to manage/control. No matter how much you disagree with someone's fertility decisions, it's not your place to make a choice about their reproduction. Talking about sterilizing someone is a very, VERY degrogatory way for one human being to talk about another human being. Assuming you have the right to step in and do that to a person puts you at one level and the person at more of an animal level.

As for empathy, I think it's hard for many people to imagine the heartbreak and sadness of someone living a life so difficult, so challenged, that they have children repeatedly taken from them. Many of the people have struggled with things you or I can hardly imagine--extreme poverty, addiction, abuse... some adults live "messed up" lives simply because of the horrors they've faced since childhood and infancy. One can say "well, adults are adults and should be responsible for their choices"...and that's true, for the most part...but I have a hard time judging someone harshly when they've never (or rarely) had a good role model, a consistent home, or lived a portion of their life without fear of violence, sexual abuse, etc. It's awfully hard to grow up to be responsible under those circumstances.

[mamadebug]

I don't agree with forced sterilization and I also recognize that many people have had really hard things in their life that make them less able to make healthy choices, manage their lives well, etc.

But, when the impact of bringing more children into the world is so profound on so many levels, I think it is reasonable to ask about birth control. Obviously, it is really insensitive to throw it out there in casual conversation, but I think it is a reasonable question to ask in a larger sense.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by RedOakMomma

I don't know if this is everyone's take on it, but people aren't cats and dogs for us to manage/control. No matter how much you disagree with someone's fertility decisions, it's not your place to make a choice about their reproduction. Talking about sterilizing someone is a very, VERY degrogatory way for one human being to talk about another human being. Assuming you have the right to step in and do that to a person puts you at one level and the person at more of an animal level.

What is this in response to? I get the feeling it was directed at me, yet I didn't say anything about managing someone else's reproduction.

[Polarbearfish]

Originally Posted by RedOakMomma

One can say "well, adults are adults and should be responsible for their choices"...and that's true, for the most part...but I have a hard time judging someone harshly when they've never (or rarely) had a good role model, a consistent home, or lived a portion of their life without fear of violence, sexual abuse, etc. It's awfully hard to grow up to be responsible under those circumstances.

I totally agree.

[SpottedFoxx]

Originally Posted by mamagi

If another "well meaning" person asks me this question about my foster & adopted kids' mother I don't know what I'm going to do.

Just respond with "I was just wondering the same thing about you" and walk away.

[tiffani]

Originally Posted by 2xy

What is this in response to? I get the feeling it was directed at me, yet I didn't say anything about managing someone else's reproduction.

I'm not the person who posted this, but I don't think it was directed at you, it was directed at the thread in general. you did mention that you "don't get it" though, so I think ROM was offering her wisdom, trying to help you get it.

I have a friend who is fostering the youngest baby from an addicted prostitute mother who has had several kids removed from her care (I want to say 7 kids, but not sure exactly), all of whom have issues from being exposed to drugs and alcohol in utero. My friend has met and has a relationship with the birthmother, (and father, in just her baby's case) but the other families are incredibly disrespectful towards her (despite having never met her, knowing nothing about her, etc) and have said things like "she needs to be stopped"... very likely because this birthmom is only in her early/mid twenties and has had so many "damaged" children.

Personally I would love to see cash incentive programs for women in her situation to be implanted with IUD's, or given birth control shots or whatever. The cost to the taxpayer would be far less than what is shelled out for foster care and ongoing services for the babies she keeps having. If it is non-permanent birth control, then she will always have the opportunity to have children she will actually be able to take care of, if she gets it together in the future. I can't imagine that she *wants* to continue having babies, only to have them removed (she harbors no fantasies about raising them) but who knows, perhaps being pregnant and giving birth makes her feel special in a way she can't achieve any other way...

[2xy]

Originally Posted by tiffani

I'm not the person who posted this, but I don't think it was directed at you, it was directed at the thread in general. you did mention that you "don't get it" though, so I think ROM was offering her wisdom, trying to help you get it.

Possibly, but I think it was quite clear that I was questioning the "empathy" part of it.

Personally I would love to see cash incentive programs for women in her situation to be implanted with IUD's, or given birth control shots or whatever. The cost to the taxpayer would be far less than what is shelled out for foster care and ongoing services for the babies she keeps having.

Agreed.

[tiffani]

Originally Posted by 2xy

Possibly, but I think it was quite clear that I was questioning the "empathy" part of it.

my take on her post is that the first part was general discussion on the subject, and the second part was in regard to you not feeling empathetic towards women who have a lot of unplanned pregnancies resulting in removal of their babies.

I also wanted to clarify that I don't actually consider "the taxpayer's dollar" to be of much importance when considering social programs, and just threw that argument in because many people would balk at the idea of giving addicts cash to willingly be given a long-acting birth control. I wish there were better solutions, but I can't imagine what else would inspire some addicts living on the streets to use birth control... I'm sure there are many of them who do responsibly keep themselves from getting pregnant, but we don't hear about those...

but yes, sorry for the tangent, OP, I totally agree with your frustration. It's an ugly sentiment, sorry you have to deal with that.

[Teensy]

Slightly OT - but an IUD is contra-indicated for women, as perhaps some of these women are, who have multiple sexual partners. I kept encouraging that my SIL have one after several unwanted pregnancies but her doctor said it was a big no-no because of the increased risk of infection.

I would love to see more long-term, but non-permanent, birth control options available.

***

Having watched a baby spend two months in the hospital being weaned off heroin, I understand the frustration behind the statement, even if I would never support any sort of actual forced sterilization. I'm not sure of the context of the statement in your conversations, but I could easily see it being said as hyperbole. Sort of like I sometimes say I wanted to beat someone with a two by four. I've never ACTUALLY wanted to beat someone with a board, but I have felt great ire that caused me to say so.

[SilverFish]

i would guess that in a lot of cases, the woman thinks that "this time it will be different"... if they are struggling with addiction issues, then it makes sense that in some moments it would seem like "all" they have to do is get clean and fix up their lives and then they'll get to keep this baby and everything will be better. then of course the addictions kick back in and the baby gets taken away from them.

the other issue is that for a lot of women in these situations, they've never really grown up. an adult can look at a situation and see all the logical consequences and results of their actions... if i have sex without proctection, i might get pregnant.... but if your brain works more like an adolescent brain, you don't see the logical consequences with the same clarity. whether it's because of abuse, addiction, or something more biological, i know a lot of adults with significant issues in their lives to have a very adolescent way of thinking.

[marsupial-mom]

Yeah I understand what the OP feels. For me, it's not even about their lack of empathy or their desire to control women's fertility. For me, I just wish people would focus more on the positive. I have enough drama and negativity in my life... I don't need strangers feeling sorry for my foster kid or acquaintances feeling angry at his birth mom. I'd rather they delight in him - his adorable smile, his sweet giggle, his bright eyes.

[Masel]

DD1's birth mom doesn't not have any of the issues mentioned in this thread. This didn't stop "well-meaning" people from philosophizing about what she should do with her fertility status. I'm not sure why they thought I needed to hear that. If they ever say something like that in front of DD they will get an earfull.

[HeatherAtHome]

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom

I don't need strangers feeling sorry for my foster kid or acquaintances feeling angry at his birth mom. I'd rather they delight in him - his adorable smile, his sweet giggle, his bright eyes.

Yes, because otherwise they're just adding to the awfulness of the situation. Some people like to go down the negative road and talk about other people who don't have it all together (to feel better about themselves?) when really, they're not accomplishing anything except to make everyone depressed and upset over how awful the world is.

[RedOakMomma]

Originally Posted by 2xy

What is this in response to? I get the feeling it was directed at me, yet I didn't say anything about managing someone else's reproduction.

Nothing nasty aimed at you. The "you" was a general you, not a you-you. I did get the feeling that the "I didn't get it" applied to more than empathy, though....more of a "I don't get why statements like this are so bad" sort of thing.

[Tigerchild]

Having been a corrections officer in a jail that housed predominantly street prostitutes and people in various addictions (chronic DUI/street drug use and posession/parole violators)...

There is really nothing you can say to the willfully ignorant. People don't want to know why it happens. Nor do they really want to do anything about it (because for the most part, many of the people who sniff and sigh over other people not keeping their legs shut also really do not want to foot the medical bills. They just don't).

And let's be real too--how many "normal" people are familiar enough with the world of pimps and major addictions to even remotely understand why someone might not shell out the $100+ for an abortion/sterlization when they don't have the time and/or need the $$ for something else?

What can you say? Not much. Most people like to say stuff like that because they are clueless and think it's something they can moralize on because there is no grey area.

Having to actually work with (and love, and see the failure and the struggles and the grim reality) "those people" has robbed me of the ability to look down my nose at them. Sometimes I wish I could choose ignorance again, but...I can't. So I tend to say, "Wow, what a really ignorant point of view," and move on.

I can't stand people who think they should get to kick people who have already been thrown away like so much garbage. It's disgusting.

[tiffani]

Tigerchild (and anyone else who wants to answer, but since you've worked in corrections...) what do you think of cash incentives for women who continue to have drug and alcohol affected babies to get something like a depo provera shot on a regular basis? Do programs like this exist anywhere? I feel like it's such a simple answer, I must be missing something...