Great Plains testing results (or other labs that do comprehensive stool & OAT tests)

[changingseasons]

Who here has used Great Plains? Did your results seem accurate? Did you start a treatment plan based on results, and did that help? Or I guess- have you used any other independent labs for comprehensive stool and OAT urine testing, and how did that turn out?

I'm a little baffled, and need some opinions. In January, we did a comprehensive stool and OAT urine test for DD. There were quite a few things out of the normal range- like all her inflammation markers were off the charts, no big surprise there. But the 2 most concerning things were a bacterial overgrowth on her stool test (klebsiella oxytoca) and an oxalic acid level in her urine that was off the charts.

The DAN! doc that ordered the tests was most concerned with the bacterial overgrowth, and started us on a product with gse (gse was shown on the test results as one of the most effective treatments for this type of klebsiella.) He wanted us to retest in like 6 weeks, but talking to the biochemist(?) at the lab she said there was no way we would see results that quickly, so we put it off. (And we were waiting for insurance to process to see if any would be paid.)

We did the gse product for 2 weeks, then DD wouldn't take it anymore so we stopped. The following week, we saw a GI guy who also ordered the standard stool test. That came back completely clean- no overgrowth whatsoever. I understand that the 2 labs might be looking at different types of bacteria for their respective test, but the regular lab assured me that they would spot an overgrowth of any kind. So there's my #1. Did the gse product completely get rid of the overgrowth in 2 weeks? Or did she not have an overgrowth to begin with? Or...?

So- oxalic acid was way off the charts. We've started using a bit of vitamin K, really just a sprinkle here and there (probably <1mg, a few times a week?) We also tried to lower our oxalate intake, but we really haven't put a whole lot of effort into that. We're boiling broccoli instead of steaming, things like that. But our diet hasn't changed at all. I asked our ped if she could order an oxalate urine test through the regular lab, because I didn't want to pay for the entire OAT again. I made some calls, found that the lab can do an oxalate test- it's a 24-hour urine test. So we just got the call that our results are in, and they are completely normal. Oxalate level of 33, with a range of 0-38 being normal. So there's #2. Did the addition of a tiny bit of K completely take care of the extra oxalates? Did she actually have an oxalate problem? Are these just 2 completely different types of oxalate measurement and therefore not comparible? (ftr- after much discussion here, and seeing DD's insane reaction to supplemental calcium, we assumed that the oxalates were elevated because DD was having issues with calcium regulation, so her body was producing the excess oxalates to deal with the rogue calcium floating around her body.)

I'm really curious about these conflicting lab results. I would love to redo the Great Plains tests again, but there's no way I am spending another $700 if there's a chance these tests aren't accurate.

Thoughts? Experiences?

[mom61508]

Subbing-Not much help but I'm so glad you started this thread because I was thinking of using great plains for DDs stool test.

[lil_miss_understood]

No thoughts except right along with you.
Subbing for (hopefully) others' insight.

[Theloose]

Did you change your b6 for the oxalates?

[changingseasons]

Originally Posted by whoMe

Did you change your b6 for the oxalates?

What do you mean???

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

What do you mean???

wasn't one of the potential causes of high oxalates low b6, and she had that marker too? have you increased your b6?

[changingseasons]

ummmm.... let me find it.... yes. She was low on B6. I haven't supped her anything directly except a random sprinkle of K and melatonin at bedtime (and recently the pancreas glandular.) I started the Thorne B-complex w/the high dose of B6, but she hasn't had any directly. Would that make a difference if it was just me taking it?

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

ummmm.... let me find it.... yes. She was low on B6. I haven't supped her anything directly except a random sprinkle of K and melatonin at bedtime (and recently the pancreas glandular.) I started the Thorne B-complex w/the high dose of B6, but she hasn't had any directly. Would that make a difference if it was just me taking it?

It would definitely make a difference. No clue how big of a difference, but dd ran out of b6 when my milk was gone, and she seems to be fine again now that she's got milk back.

[changingseasons]

hmmm... enough of a difference to completely wipe out the oxalates though? I mean we aren't seeing any other symptom improvements around here.

I just pulled out the OAT results, and her oxalates were 148.5 in January. In June, 33.something. That is a really big difference!

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

hmmm... enough of a difference to completely wipe out the oxalates though? I mean we aren't seeing any other symptom improvements around here.

I just pulled out the OAT results, and her oxalates were 148.5 in January. In June, 33.something. That is a really big difference!

It does seem a bit much, but it's probably at least a factor?

Are the units the same on the two tests? Are they measuring the same thing? I know that was your original question...

[changingseasons]

I thought they probably weren't, but when I pulled the OAT it also has a normal range of 0-38, so now I'm thinking they are the same.

And after thinking about it, we have seen one really major change since January- at that time she was losing weight, and she has gained a ton since then. So what tipped the scales, I wonder?

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

I thought they probably weren't, but when I pulled the OAT it also has a normal range of 0-38, so now I'm thinking they are the same.

And after thinking about it, we have seen one really major change since January- at that time she was losing weight, and she has gained a ton since then. So what tipped the scales, I wonder?

Awesome on the weight gain! I'd consider that a symptom improvement. Maybe it was a perfect storm of testing day variation, the increased b6, the sprinkles of K, and the change in gut bacteria?

[changingseasons]

Yeah- there was definitely something going on right at the beginning of the year, because she was starting to lose weight for the first time ever (it had always been slowed or stalled, but never losing before). So maybe it was just a really bad time to test, and things have been resolving on their own?? Who knows....

[dulce_mami]

Whoa, what you say about your DD's oxalates is very encouraging, I take it that she is doing much better. My DD and older DS both had the OAT tests done, we were recommended A TON of probiotics, which we are now doing (their rec. was ~50 bil.day, we're probably doing 100 +). Both my kids had their oxalate levels off the charts (over 120), what they consider the autism spectrum (according to their website). They said to give citrate calcium with meals which we have been doing on and off, we reduced oxalates levels (did this before), but the biggest change I saw when we started giving them vit B supps, but I always thought it was the B12 helping them, not B6. Need to go an read more on oxalates. My DD had some other high markers, according to the results she has dysbiosis, not my son. He seems to have more of an yeast overgrowth.
Please share if you get some answers, I am very interested in the oxalate issue!

[changingseasons]

Wait- they're diagnosing autism based on oxalate levels? Or are they just saying that levels that high are usually in children with autism?

DD's level in January (through Great Plains) was 148.5, and in June (through local lab) was 33.7.

The thing is, we haven't really been doing anything since the test, which is why this is so perplexing that her numbers have gone down so far. We can't supplement her with calcium, because she goes crazy. Her blood calcium is also pretty high, so based on all that we figured she was making oxalates to keep her high calcium in check (which means that supplementing calcium would make it even worse.)

[dulce_mami]

On their website (here http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com...g/oxalates.asp

they have a chart showing values of oxalates >100 to be specific to kids with autism, or on the autism spectrum. I am not so keen on all the names of the diseases they have, to me these are symptoms of the problems; behavioral, digestive problems are symptoms of something malfunctioning in the body (it looks like yeast/fungus/bacterial overgrowth is the case for these oxalates issues). Do you remember where you read about vit K & oxalates? I read a little bit once about it, but I was not convinced that this is what the kids needed for their problems, but maybe I was not reading the right article.

My DD has raised bumps behind the knees, and she and my older DS have patches of rough (``chicken") skin on their body. When (I think) the oxalates levels get too high they show some neurological/behavioral issues: they get very intense at times (tantrums for almost no reason), my DD wets the bed even though she has been potty-trained for more than a year now, she screams using this high-pitched voice, they are restless (like they need to use the bathroom). My DS also itches a lot, without having eczema.

Changing_seasons: do your kids show these kind of symptoms?

Thanks!

[changingseasons]

I don't remember which thread we started talking about it, but I bet if you searched the allergy forum for oxalates you would turn up a bunch of threads. There is also a Vitamin K Yahoo Group that I've been lurking on- they talk a lot about oxalates. (We did start using just a tiny, tiny bit of vitamin K with DD since our initial test, which could be one of the reasons her oxalates went down. Although I hate to attribute it just to that because it seems unlikely, and of course that isn't a solution for everyone, because there are many different causes for elevated oxalates.)

DD does have a lot of those symptoms, but many are in respond to a food allergy reaction. I haven't noticed any specific to oxalates, but it's so hard to pinpoint things because she's allergic to almost everything.

[dulce_mami]

I found an article on vit K, don't know how to attach it and need to go to bed... Anyway, it pretty much convinced me that vit K is essential for oxalates issue, so I bought it yesterday and started giving the kids 50mcg/day. Too much, too little? The article suggested 150 mg for an adult (assumed at 150 lbs), which seems way too much for me (if my units are right 1mg=100 mcg). Do you remember how much you gave your kids? Thanks!

[changingseasons]

I have the Carlson's K2, which I think is a 5mg capsule. I was just opening it and sprinkling a little onto DD's food, so she was maybe getting 1/2-1mg at a time- and I was doing it a few times a week. Now I do it every so often- maybe once a week, and still just a sprinkle. We saw immediate results when we started (her loose stools firmed up), even with that small amount. 150mg does seem like an awful lot!