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Jay Gordon, MD ~ Please respond - Page 2

post #21 of 82
According to his own words, he's been against circ for 25 years. Isn't that "slowly" enough for the seeds to be planted? :

You're quite the conspiracy theorist. IMHO, it's just related to his religion.

But, if his hands are tied, that's too bad.

Anyone catch "Iron Jawed Angels" on HBO? Even though the topic was different (suffragist movement), it carried a powerful message to us all about never giving up the fight, regardless of the powers that be.

Yes, I found it curious that he posted on the vax forum, and the mods never moved his message to the more general TAO board. Perhaps he felt that forum was "safe" for him (and it wasn't.)

But he'd have to know that, in appealing to an AP audience, the circ issue would come up. His list of AP topics said "and more," which left the door open to the circ question. I emailed his lovely and talented Mary a question about circ. I doubt I'll hear back. Canned? Yes, quite. Too bad. I like NPR.

And you're right, Ann, Sarah is pulling her punches here, and usually she doesn't.
post #22 of 82
AnnMarie an Somemama- Where is the incongruity? Could you please give an example of the sort of thing you are talking about?

And as for this seed sewing... I don't think it's done by planting a moderate seed at the moment it's desperatly needed... it's done by planting a radical seed decades before you harvest the fruit. That's what sewing seeds is about.

Not by saying to the pregnant woman, "You realise that circumcising this baby could make it more difficult for YOU to breastfeed him."

It's done by saying to the 16 year old boy, "It is unconstitutional to deny protection to people on the basis of gender or race, so why is it that it is illegal to even draw a line wih a razor on the genitals of a girl - and yet the AAP says that cultural considerations are VALID when considering mutilating a boy."

Love Sarah
post #23 of 82

Anne-Marie, Sarah, and Somemama...

Hey Ladies~

First, I'm a redhead! Second, my name is Sarah Elizabeth. Third, I'm "some mama" too! And Fourth, I love the way you three post!! You guys throw down like no one else about the stuff that really matters... How nice that we're all on the same team!

I'm always torn.. I never fail to absolutely SLAM someone with my opinion before I even know I've done it.. I'll be with a group of friends that I have *so much* in common with, it never occurs to me that we might have that ONE issue where we disagree...

I throw out there that I believe PS is damaging to children, or that circ'ing is senseless genital mutilation of boys/men, and sure enough, someone flips out. But they usually wait to do it until I'm gone. AND SOWING SEEDS... SUCKS!! I too just want people to blanking WAKE UP. What I appreciate here is how we confront each other to get to the bottom of issues, rather than just assume we know what the other poster was saying, and holding on to those angry/bitter feelings.

I learn more every day here! Wish I had seen Candice's posts, as well!

lizzie
post #24 of 82

OK . . .

I do not perform circumcisions, have never performed one and never will.

Medically, the choice is easy: Do not circumcise your baby.

Personally, some people have a hard time with this issue for reasons you're all familiar with and disagree with.

The point I have tried to make is that my job and my goals do not allow me to "lock out" families because they feel they feel they must circumcise their sons for religious reasons or personal reasons. I tell them how I feel, why I feel this way and they choose. I have convinced many people to leave their sons intact when they had planned otherwise and perhaps if I were completely unyielding in this area they might not have listened to me. These are huge victories.

I have tremendous respect for those who have made this their primary cause and I would hope they respect my making this one of my causes.

Jay
post #25 of 82

hi

I usually don't read this forum as a messianic mama (born and raised jewish, practicing Christian as an adult - my son was circumcized in a brit milah by a mohel/urologist).... but i saw the title and read a bit. I guess I'm not here enough to have even known the good doc had been here. Should read more. lol.

Anyway, my dh brought up a thought when I discussed it with him. He said basically that just as many thought Mel's "Passion" might spark antisemitism.... that some folks might feel that circumcision debate using words like "mutilation" might be deemed antisemetic. Generally public speakers, public figures, do try to steer clear of being labeled antisemites.

just my dh's thought on why Dr.Gordon might choose not to practice routine circumcision as a pediatrician but not take a public stand against it. I mean only a small percentage of Americans are Jewish and have their sons circ'd in a bris - i think its like 2% compared to the 86% Christians and the other 12% of other religious or no religious affiliations (will have to check primetimes poll again to be sure of those numbers)... but still, maybe?

again. just his thought.
post #26 of 82
Dr. Gordon:

I want to thank you for having the courage to come here and address our concerns and hope you will continue to engage in the debate. I was afraid you would dodge this issue and I am grateful to be proven wrong.

Thus far, I have found two issues that I disagree with you on. One is the proper pain relief for the circumcision procedure. In the 1999 AMA sponsored study, Dorsal Penile Nerve Block (DPNB) was found to be ineffective and the only effective method was found to be subcutaneous ring block. Ideally, the ring block would be preceeded by EMLA cream with sufficient time to work (30 minutes or so). I think as a humanitarian gesture, you could advocate ring block instead of DPNB. As you know, there is not much difference, just the difference of 3 local injections instead of one and the application of EMLA cream with time to work. The latest research shows that less than 4% of circumcisers have EVER used this method. That is appalling and we can use your respected voice in this issue. I think it is also important that you make it perfectly clear that even with a ring block, the procedure is not pain free, only attenuated.

The other thing is not as easy. I take issue with your statement that it is a parents choice. Many parents take that statement as justification with the good doctor's blessing to circumcise their child. When the steel was taken to my genitals, my choice was purloined by a doctor that told my parents that it was their choice and they believed him. It wasn't his choice and it wasn't my parents choice. It was mine and mine alone. My choice and full sexuality was stolen from me simply because I could not defend myself and speak up for myself. I believe you can get your message across without this pablum statement and without offending your listeners. You have chosen to take the podium in the public spotlight and with that comes a certain responsibility. I respectfully ask that you take that responsibility and construct a position that does not pass the rights of a man to his genitals to anyone else. I think it can be done. There are others who are doing it and not losing their public voice.



Respectfully,
Frank
post #27 of 82

Re: OK . . .

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD
I have convinced many people to leave their sons intact when they had planned otherwise and perhaps if I were completely unyielding in this area they might not have listened to me. These are huge victories.


Jay
Wonderful!

Yes, those are huge victories. We are so glad to have you here with us. I'm sorry we all got off on the wrong foot on the vax thread. And I realize that I perhaps came off as rude over there, as well.

I'm not asking you to commit to this as your only issue. But this is my only remaining question: Why take a harder stance on circ in certain arenas than in others? Why not be consistent with your message, whether that is a moderate or more radical message? Why list lots of anti-circ links on your website, but be so neutral in other venues?

What you say about circ in your book Listening to Your Baby particularly bothers me. I almost wish you hadn't mentioned circ at all there, since you come across as really neutral.

The phrase you use that particularly bothers me is "TRY not to circ your son." Try not to? What does that mean, exactly? Like I might stumble and accidentally circ him? I try to lose weight; I didn't try not to circ my son, I just didn't circ him. See the difference?

You present other non-mainstream concepts in that book--such as co-sleeping and delayed vaxing or non- vaxing. So, it's not as if you've written a mainstream book, anyway. So, why not be a little stronger against circ? Why not say that you don't perform circs and you wouldn't circ a son yourself? If you consider it a personal question (which I disagree with, by the way), why not at least state what you would do personally?

I know it's your book and you can do what you want with it, but if you were to change it to a stronger anti-circ message, it would then be the perfect AP book to give to everyone I know who is expecting a baby. (Since you already cover so many other important issues, such as breastfeeding.)

Thank you for your time.
post #28 of 82
Quote:
Originally posted by Sarah
AnnMarie an Somemama- Where is the incongruity? Could you please give an example of the sort of thing you are talking about?


It's the general tone, I think. (And AnnMarie can respond for herself, of course.)

With most parents who are on the fence about circ, you say in a no-holds-barred kind of way, "circ is barbaric and shame on you for not realizing it this very second."

You've left the shame out of your post to Dr. Gordon. I think that's the difference we were pointing out. No big deal, though.
post #29 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by somemama
It's the general tone, I think. (And AnnMarie can respond for herself, of course.)

With most parents who are on the fence about circ, you say in a no-holds-barred kind of way, "circ is barbaric and shame on you for not realizing it this very second."

You've left the shame out of your post to Dr. Gordon. I think that's the difference we were pointing out. No big deal, though.
Yup, exactly.
post #30 of 82
Thread Starter 

Re: OK . . .

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD
I do not perform circumcisions, have never performed one and never will.

Medically, the choice is easy: Do not circumcise your baby.

Personally, some people have a hard time with this issue for reasons you're all familiar with and disagree with.

The point I have tried to make is that my job and my goals do not allow me to "lock out" families because they feel they feel they must circumcise their sons for religious reasons or personal reasons. I tell them how I feel, why I feel this way and they choose. I have convinced many people to leave their sons intact when they had planned otherwise and perhaps if I were completely unyielding in this area they might not have listened to me. These are huge victories.

I have tremendous respect for those who have made this their primary cause and I would hope they respect my making this one of my causes.

Jay

I think you might have misunderstood. I don't think, and I don't think anyone else does either, that you should "lock out" anyone. Your post cleared up a lot of things for me. I was under the impression that you didn't tell them how you feel and why. You are to be commended for taking a stand against circ. I know it's hard.

I'd still like to see some info against circ in your FAQ section though.
post #31 of 82
Thread Starter 

Re: Anne-Marie, Sarah, and Somemama...

Quote:
Originally posted by lizzie
Third, I'm "some mama" too! And Fourth, I love the way you three post!! You guys throw down like no one else about the stuff that really matters...
:LOL That's something I don't think I've ever heard before. Thanks.
post #32 of 82

Tone

Again, I understand your indignation and anger towards someone who circumcises and share your desire to keep all boys intact.

I assume you are aware of the medical propaganda which talks about the "benefits" of circumcision and view it with the same disdain I do. However, most doctors believe it and they use it to scare parents into a circumcision.

Most pediatricians are not just trained to circumcise when possible but are also not well trained in the care of the intact foreskin.

I'd like to rephrase my original thoughts. When we use words like "mutilation" and "shame"--as accurate as they might be--we appear to be trying to scare parents and we also look too extreme for reasonable discourse. We can continue to post at MDC and similar places and pat each other on the back for taking a tough and then tougher stance. But, my main goal is to influence parents and doctors and I think I do better with a different tone. If we disagree, it's not by much.

Jay
post #33 of 82

I know less than you do about this . . .

Quote:
Thus far, I have found two issues that I disagree with you on. One is the proper pain relief for the circumcision procedure. In the 1999 AMA sponsored study, Dorsal Penile Nerve Block (DPNB) was found to be ineffective and the only effective method was found to be subcutaneous ring block. Ideally, the ring block would be preceeded by EMLA cream with sufficient time to work (30 minutes or so). I think as a humanitarian gesture, you could advocate ring block instead of DPNB. As you know, there is not much difference, just the difference of 3 local injections instead of one and the application of EMLA cream with time to work.
No, I was not aware of this difference and should have been. As I've mentioned, I have never done a circumcision and never intend to, but I still should have been aware of the best anesthesia. Maybe, just maybe, I did not want to be complicit in the act and didn't want to give that "ring block" advice.

Nope, I just didn't know. But now I do.

Thanks, Frank.

Jay
post #34 of 82

enough

Quote:
You're quite the conspiracy theorist. IMHO, it's just related to his religion.
No, this is not related to my religion. I have spoken out, in public and in print about the fact that most Jewish families do not obey the 613 laws of the Bible and that if they'd like to pick a law to skip, they could skip circumcision and follow the rest.

I have now reread this entire thread and could have answered on one post instead of three, I guess.

This is what I don't understand: Why, using the anonymity of the Internet and screen names, do you choose to be nasty? Very few people's minds get changed by nastiness.

You have excellent knowledge, command of the facts, a viable forum and lots of friends here. Why be nasty?

Yes, yes, I know: MGM is nastier we could say and people who claim that there's really a choice deserve the backs of our hands and not a discussion. Again, I respectfully disagree. In just 48 hours on this board, I have learned a lot. I tend to talk to much and listen less than I should but I am hearing what you have to say. I just think that most people listen better when we're respectful of their opinions.

Jay
post #35 of 82
Quote:
just my dh's thought on why Dr.Gordon might choose not to practice routine circumcision as a pediatrician but not take a public stand against
My goodness, I will actually read everything before I post from now on.

I have taken a public stance against circumcision and in favor of leaving every baby boy intact. I tell parents that if a boy chooses to be circumcised, we can let him do it when he's a teenager. I am serious when I say that.

As a result of this discussion, and in the interests of the best health, humane treatment and intellectual integrity, every single discussion I have with parents from now on will be more forceful. My language will not mirror yours, but I will change.

Jay
post #36 of 82
Hello, Dr Gordon!

I was just talking about you with Dr Fleiss. And now you are here. It's great to have you.

I was asking Dr Fleiss who to see if and when he retires. He said you.

When speaking to him I did learn of some of the dififficulties that Dr's of your stance, encounter when getting your message out.

The example he gave me was of a LLL meeting he was speaking at. There was a question and answer session after his speech. He was told he was NOT allowed to discuss circ. He replied, "What if they ask?"......

Needless to say the questions where written down and previewed before they were asked. They eliminated any questions pertaining to circ. Nothing could be mentioned. However, they did allow him to sell his sleep and circ books as well as sign them. But he couldn't comment on the content of his circ book.

When I see a freshly circ'd penis or hear of a friend who has circ'd their child I feel intense sadness, and I only know a fraction of what you and Dr FLeiss would know. How do you feel when it is presented in your office raw and wrapped in gauze?

What are your ideas on better education for parents to be?

I have alot of respect for you in your stance of bfing, vax, homebirth. You were also recommended by my midwife, Shelley Girard. I loved reading your column in Fit Pregnancy when I was preg.

Keep up the good work! OK. Maybe you could be a little more of a hardass on the circ issue.......

Angela
post #37 of 82
Not to mention the fact that circ is a great portal of entry to hospital acquired MRSA, and quite commonly results in cellulitis in the groin, with the poor kid then on IV Antibiotics. Which is a great start for the gut flora.

And given that MRSA is now becoming a community problem, even more of a reason not to passively stand back since hospitals aren't the only place you can contact it.

A firmer stand is warranted. Circumcision as you know (though some of your colleagues would dispute it) serves no useful purpose in the absence of clear cut medical reason of which there are really .

The article below says that community acquired MRSA is found in 20% of skin & soft tissue infections in Japan. In the UK, 19% of kids > 5yo with eczema carried MRSA, though that is not mentioned in the abstract below. If you have not seen this one, you might like to add it into the equation.....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12734443
post #38 of 82
Dr. Jay:

Let me apologize for some of the angst you have seen. I understand there is some that I have not seen which apparently, was pretty intense.

I think the problem is angst at the medical profession and not at you but you happen to be present and available. We hear on a daily basis of doctors who strongly encourage circumcision despite the official stance of the AAP and AMA, of forcible retractions of infants, of Dx of phimosis in 1 year olds and of DX of infection when it is really only irritation of the normal separation process. We hear of dire warnings of doctors to mothers who have left their children intact and have had no problems. We depend on our medical care providers for accurate up to date medical information and in this area, we have been failed miserably by the vast majority of the medical profession. You happened to step into a vipers pit as a representative of the medical profession. We realize you are an ally and we want you have the correct information. We have not done a very good job of communicating that.

I have been studying this issue intensely for several years and have gained something of an "Ask Frank" reputation here. I have been asked how I know all of this information when the doctors don't know it. My answer has been that I study a single issue about a single organ and a doctor can't possibly spend the time I do on a single issue and single organ, not even a specialist. However, when you step into the glaring light of publicity, you are expected to know this information and as you can see, there is not much tolerance for not having it. Honestly, that is not fair to you.

I feel certain that after this initial rocky start, you will be welcomed here. I will certainly welcome the opportunity to step down from the "expert pedestal" some here have granted me to yeild it to a true expert. We need it desperately! We hope you will stay around.




Frank
post #39 of 82
Quote:
Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
However, when you step into the glaring light of publicity, you are expected to know this information and as you can see, there is not much tolerance for not having it. Honestly, that is not fair to you.
I disagree. On the vaccination thread, Dr Gordon publicly declared he was an expert on vaccines. He was challenged on that.

If any medical person declares they are an expert on anything, then they have to account for both personal inconsistencies, and any ignorance that may have accrued on their part, since a person who publicly takes on that position MUST be able to back it up. If they can not, then they are not, by definition, an expert.
Quote:
I feel certain that after this initial rocky start, you will be welcomed here.
Anyone who is prepared to be honest and open about what they know, and what they don't, is worth listening to.

You Frank, have proven yourself to be an "expert". That status has been earned. Likewise, anyone going to any public board, no matter whether they have letters after their name or not, will also be scrutinised. By their "fruits" they will be known.

I very much understand that for Dr Gordon to do that, puts him in a potentially dicey position. As Insider of old quickly found out.
post #40 of 82

Hoist on Your Own Petard

"If any medical person declares they are an expert on anything, then they have to account for both personal inconsistencies, and any ignorance that may have accrued on their part, since a person who publicly takes on that position MUST be able to back it up. If they can not, then they are not, by definition, an expert."

Hi--

I got out my Webster's and found that this is not the definition of an expert.

I am a pediatric specialist and expert. I do not claim to know everything and may often display inconsistencies of thought and action. (That, btw, may be a definition of being human, but I haven't looked it up yet.)

(I have edited out a hastily written comment about Momtezuma's post. There is no logic to my complaining about tone and then being rude myself!)

I am not an expert on circumcision. I never claimed to be. I have opinions and some experience and have testified against at least one doc who did one without fulling informing the parents. But, I am most definitely not claiming to be an expert.

I am enjoying these exchanges immensely and learning a lot but if my presence on these boards causes more harm than good, I will just read and not write. Let me know what you think about that.

Jay
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