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Jay Gordon, MD ~ Please respond - Page 3

post #41 of 80
3/15/04 at 7:09pm

Re: Hoist on Your Own Petard

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD
I am enjoying these exchanges immensely and learning a lot but if my presence on these boards causes more harm than good, I will just read and not write. Let me know what you think about that.
I haven't posted on any of your threads, but please don't leave! I really like reading what you have to say and I think it's great that you are learning from us too.

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post #42 of 80
3/15/04 at 7:35pm
How on God's green earth can your presence here cause more harm than good? You are not Ezzo. Now that guy.... :

Please stay and post.

More later, laundry calling.
post #43 of 80
3/15/04 at 7:48pm
I promise, I did read all three pages here, but maybe I missed something.

I thought mostly OBs did circs unless there was some reason why they couldn't do it at the hospital then the baby had to be referred by the ped to a urologist. Isn't that the standard MO? By the time the ped sees the baby the damage is done. Right?

(what gets me is why drs specializing in women's organs should do surgery on a male organ )

We need to get some OBs in here to politely out of the "well if that's what you want" approach. If my ob hadn't pulled that with me when I tried discussing circ with him, my son might be intact today.

oh well, that's just my opinion.

Welcome to the board Dr J
post #44 of 80
3/15/04 at 8:11pm
Please by all means stay and post.

Everyone can learn alot from everyone here. You're opinion, education and years of experience as a pediatrician are very needed and appreciated.

TIA

Angela
post #45 of 80
3/15/04 at 8:29pm
Turquoise:

Ob/Gyns do about 78% of the circumcisions. The irony of a physician who specializes only in the female reproductive organs performing male amputative surgery is certainly not lost on me. There are some OBs who refuse to perform circumcisions and there are some hospitals who don't allow their facilities to be used for routine circumcisions. This accounts for the approximately 15% of circumcisions performed by pediatricians and 7% performed by family practitioners. There are many, many pediatricians and family practitioners who do not perform circumcisions. I suspect they have seen the end results and complications more so than OB/GYNs and that colors their thinking. It would be rare for the OB/GYN to ever see his/her work again, even the screw ups.





Frank
post #46 of 80
3/15/04 at 8:41pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
It would be rare for the OB/GYN to ever see his/her work again, even the screw ups.
All the more reason to send them a few bass akward system if you ask me.
post #47 of 80
3/15/04 at 9:05pm

Re: enough

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD


This is what I don't understand: Why, using the anonymity of the Internet and screen names, do you choose to be nasty? Very few people's minds get changed by nastiness.

You have excellent knowledge, command of the facts, a viable forum and lots of friends here. Why be nasty?
I'm not quite sure to whom you are referring here. If I have come across to you as "nasty," then I apologize.

Please stay and post!
post #48 of 80
3/15/04 at 9:15pm
Quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD


This is what I don't understand: Why, using the anonymity of the Internet and screen names, do you choose to be nasty? Very few people's minds get changed by nastiness.

You have excellent knowledge, command of the facts, a viable forum and lots of friends here. Why be nasty?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the problem with msg boards is that facial expressions and tone of voice don't come into play here. Bluntness often gets confused for rudeness. IT's important to give people the benefit of the doubt and genuinely question their intent before becoming offended.

I hope you'll keep posting

peace
post #49 of 80
3/15/04 at 9:21pm
Quote:
Originally posted by turquoise

I thought mostly OBs did circs unless there was some reason why they couldn't do it at the hospital then the baby had to be referred by the ped to a urologist. Isn't that the standard MO? By the time the ped sees the baby the damage is done. Right?
no ob around here does it, all of them aRE done by peds here.
post #50 of 80
3/15/04 at 9:41pm
Dr. Gordon, I am looking forward to your posts ... so you must stay to make them . It's a demanding crowd, and certainly I agree that bluntness (or even the need to get a post out quickly because babe is calling) can come across as rudeness. Know that already you are a welcome part of this community, and I believe that you were even before you came ...

And I must stand beside you on the "expert" debate. As a dentist with over 25 years of experience in the dental field and over 8 with nursing babies, I would be considered by any court or otherwise to be an expert in my field.

Does that mean that I know all there is to know about any possible dental scenario? Of course not.

One of the beauties of a dental "practice" is just that. I am open to learning new things, and my patients teach me constantly, as you have already stated.

I am thinking that that is where you were coming from when you made that statement, and it was misconstrued. Frank, thanks for the back-up! I loved your analogy of the one organ, one issue. I will surely use that in the future!

My dictionary states it simply as "A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject" . Wow, that's several of us, Dr. Jay included surely.

Welcome, Dr. Jay!
post #51 of 80
3/15/04 at 10:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by mom2tig99Nroo03
no ob around here does it, all of them aRE done by peds here.
It depends on what state you are in. Where I am, it has to be done by an OB or Ped. urologist b/c it is considered a surgical procedure, and pediatricians aren't surgeons.
post #52 of 80
3/15/04 at 10:25pm

Peds vs. OBs

"no ob around here does it, all of them aRE done by peds here."

This seems to differ from one town to the next. In Los Angeles (and Santa Monica) I'd guess fewer than one in a hundred circumcisions are done by pediatricians.

In Phoenix, where my cousin practiced, the OBs did almost none of the surgeries.

Jay
post #53 of 80
3/15/04 at 10:41pm
Quote:
Ob/Gyns do about 78% of the circumcisions.
who does the rest? frank, do you have stats-study on this somwhere online to see? just curious and would like to show someone the stats to prove
sorry to ot
thank you
post #54 of 80
3/15/04 at 11:11pm
I think you should stay, Jay.

By the way, I have not been rude IMO. I have been discussing issues, raised firstly by you and then Frank.

You first defined yourself as an expert, and Frank then defined it again, prior to my post to him.

You originally defined the term in response to Candide's call on you, on a very valid point. However, his posts were deleted, and without them, the present discussion of what is an "expert" (as you define it yourself) and how that works out in the actuality of his query to you, has been reduced to a technicality only, for those who do not know what he said to you.

Even though Candide's posts were deleted, you might want to clarify the original issue on your own initiative, so that people can put your original comment in vaccination into its correct context.

With regard to the circumcision issue, I realised that you didn't know everything.

That is why I put up the pubmed reference for you. MRSA is a very significant issue, and one which grows in enormity every day. Parents need to be told that cellulitis or other MRSA problems are a very real and a difficult-to-treat preventable risk following circumcision.

Preventable, .....simply by not circumcising their child. Amongst all the other issues that Frank so eloquently expounds.
post #55 of 80
3/15/04 at 11:19pm

Re: Peds vs. OBs

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD
"no ob around here does it, all of them aRE done by peds here."

This seems to differ from one town to the next. In Los Angeles (and Santa Monica) I'd guess fewer than one in a hundred circumcisions are done by pediatricians.

In Phoenix, where my cousin practiced, the OBs did almost none of the surgeries.

Jay
Interesting! And in the hospitals where my kids did their internships, they did it and often mentioned the "a string of bad circumcisions done by the interns".
post #56 of 80
3/15/04 at 11:36pm

Mistake

Easy to mistake blunt emotional responses for rudeness. I must have thinner skin than I thought.

Candide's posts raised valid points and I don't know where they went. Those posts were a bit rude though.

Jay
post #57 of 80
3/15/04 at 11:52pm
I think this one may come the closest to telling you who does the most of what.

This survey is about the use of pain relief broken down by medical specialty and geography.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/101/6/e5

"Of the respondents, 956 (54%) perform at least one circumcision per month (35% of PEDs; 60% of FPs; 70% of OBs). "

Some of the data really takes a critical thinker to figure out- for example- in the above quote they are measuring the percentages of circumcisers who circumcise at least one child a month... but it's also possible that the individual PEDs are only doing two, and the of OBs are doing 100... measuring the percentages of ACTUAL circumcisions as opposed to the percentage of circumcisers... would make the ratios much more unbalanced. Be warned that later the measurements of the use of pain relief are still tabulated in terms of circumcsisers and not circumcisions! (making the picture seem less grim than it actually is)


Also, for some OB scrutiny- this one is an old article which was printed in the official journal of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in 1978... interesting:

http://www.cirp.org/library/general/grimes/

Love Sarah
post #58 of 80
3/15/04 at 11:56pm

Re: Mistake

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD
Easy to mistake blunt emotional responses for rudeness. I must have thinner skin than I thought.

Candide's posts raised valid points and I don't know where they went. Those posts were a bit rude though.

Jay
My responses may have been plain speaking, but emotional they were not IMO. Confident, yes.

I don't think that Candide's posts were rude. I do think that he deserved answers to his questions.
post #59 of 80
3/15/04 at 11:57pm
Thanks for staying and forgiving me if I have been rude. We often get expectant mamas on this board looking for advice about whether or not to circumcise. Having you here as a doc would add a tremendous amount to what this board has to offer those mamas!


As for the OB/ped question, both perform circs here in Utah. Unfortunately. Both my former ped and former OB seemed sadistically eager to cut my son.
post #60 of 80
3/16/04 at 12:02am

oh

and i'm sure some mohels did some of them
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Mothering › Mothering Discussion Forums › Health › Circumcision › Jay Gordon, MD ~ Please respond