Jay Gordon, MD ~ Please respond - Page 4

[AnnMarie]

Re: Hoist on Your Own Petard

Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD

I am enjoying these exchanges immensely and learning a lot but if my presence on these boards causes more harm than good, I will just read and not write. Let me know what you think about that.

Jay

What?!?! No, please don't go. We want you here!

[anythingelse]

me too please stay Dr J & add your 2 cents here and on every board that you would like to visit here at mothering

the more the merrier and it's not even bedtime yet in cal

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally posted by Vanna's Mom
who does the rest? frank, do you have stats-study on this somwhere online to see? just curious and would like to show someone the stats to prove
sorry to ot
thank you

To be honest, that is something I read sometime back and it stuck in my head. If I saved a link, it would take much searching. If it will save a boy, I will search it out for you.

The numbers were:
78% OB/GYNs
15% Pediatricians
7% Family Practitioners
100% total


Obviously, this total did not include ritual circumcisions, only those done by medical practitioners. I suspect there are also some done by urologists so obviously, this was only for circumcisions done in the neonatal stage or the percentage done by urologists was so small that it was not significant.



Frank

[AnnMarie]

This is all I could find on that: http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/101/6/e5

Of the respondents, 956 (54%) perform at least one circumcision per month (35% of PEDs; 60% of FPs; 70% of OBs). Of the physicians performing circumcisions, 45% use anesthesia (71% of PEDs; 56% of FPs; 25% of OBs). Of physicians using anesthesia, 85% use dorsal penile nerve block.

In this dataset, 58%, 36%, and 5% of the practitioners who circumcise >10 infants per month were OBs, PEDs, FPs, respectively. Thus, because three quarters of OBs do not use anesthesia, there is a large number of infants who do not get anesthesia.

[anythingelse]

thank you!! I will pass that info along to my very preg neighbor she likes to see numbers in print. much appreciate your time involved in posting this tonight

[LavenderMae]

OB's push epidurals for laboring women but most don't at least numb a newborn baby before they cut away at his genitals. Wow that pisses me off. What the hell, that sure is a double standard.

[Jay Gordon, MD]

Private and Public Communication

Momtezuma--

I have forgotten Candide's questions and I don't understand your agenda.
I am being honest, contrite and respectful and yet you won't let up.

I don't know everything about circumcisions and am very pleased to listen to people who know more than I do.

I study vaccination the way Frank and you study circumcision. I still am a long, long way from knowing everything I need to know. Perhaps my calling myself an expert on vaccination is too immodest and instead I should call myself an avid student of the topic instead.

Nonetheless, could we please acknowledge that there's room on this board and in this discussion for some disagreement. I feel that circumcision rates in American can be decreased by keeping opening a dialogue with parents and doctors who favor the surgery. You feel that we should emphasize the brutality of the procedure. Perhaps your way will work better than mine. I do hope that something works, though.

I notice that your screen name has not been registered for very long. Are you new to these boards or have you recently changed screen names? (Actually, I have a new screen name because I couldn't find the one I used a couple years ago!)

Jay

[laidbackmomto2]

I don't post often, but am an avid reader here. I just wanted to wave hi to Dr. Jay from Canada and commend you on adding your voice to this forum!

As you can already appreciate, the readship here is significantly passionate on issues that surround our children and their upbringing, medical and otherwise...which, it turn, should excite your interest as a pediatrician. I am extremely encouraged to see an MD willing to listen to, learn from and respond to parents in such a forum. Kudos to you, Jay!

Tougher skin will be a requirement, though. And a sense of humour. As well as a willingness to look at this issue from ALL angles. I'm sure you will be an asset to this board.

Welcome!

Cindy

Lindsey (96/02/26)
Jason (00/06/08 )

[TigerTail]

glad to see you're still here. my dh will be immensely pleased to have another jewish non-circ'ing daddy here on the boards

(btw, i've seen an ob recently posting in another forum- gosh, bfing? i can't remember her screenname! anyway, if someone runs across her, perhaps they could gently steer her in this direction?...)

suse

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Frank is the expert on Circumcision. I never said anything about concentrating on the brutality side of circumcision. I am more interested in unnecessary nosocomial infections, and iatrogenic damage.

Your comment

I feel that circumcision rates in American can be decreased by keeping opening a dialogue with parents and doctors who favor the surgery.

is like saying we could decrease the vaccination rates, and therefore the autism/vaccine damage rates, by keeping open a dialogue with doctors who favour vaccination.

I once thought that a few centuries ago, and tried it too. But discovered that it was as fruitful as persuading Shell that Mobil's petrol was better.

My post count, speaks for itself.

[pumpkinhead]

Dear Dr. Jay,

Candide has a reputation around here for 'telling it like it is'. Confrontation is the name if the game around here, I'm afraid . These Mama's (and/or Papas) don't pull punches!!

It's great to have you here, and I've been enjoying your posting.

I think some of us bristle a bit at the term 'expert' as we've spent so much time and effort researching and defending ourelves against self proclaimed experts who believe they know what's best for us and our children. It is the (and I quote) "Expert opinion" of my family doc that by not vaxing my 18 month old, I am being negligent as a parent and am putting him in harms way.

So, she's the expert and I'm just the little mama....who just happens to be finishing up her Master's degree in immunology...I am FAR from an expert.

IMHO there really is no such thing as an expert, any more than there is such a thing as 'normal' :LOL


Anyhow, I hope you'll stick around and post!

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Frank is the expert on Circumcision.

I'm not sure I'm qualified for that honor but thanks for the compliment!



Frank

[Jay Gordon, MD]

Yes

Your comment
quote:
'I feel that circumcision rates in American can be decreased by keeping opening a dialogue with parents and doctors who favor the surgery'

is like saying we could decrease the vaccination rates, and therefore the autism/vaccine damage rates, by keeping open a dialogue with doctors who favour vaccination.

Yes! I am that naive and hopeful.

Jay

[candiland]

Dr. Jay,

Thank you for sticking around through all this hullaballoo. We have a very nice feature here called "ignore" if anyone continually offends your senses.

You mentioned that you tend to listen a lot better if posts are conversational and not confrontational. I couldn't agree more. There's one particular topic on the message board that I am continually sucked into.... I give my opinion or thought, open for discussion, and it's followed by a lot of negative insinuation and name-calling. I feel your pain

Your willingness to learn more is truly refreshing. I worked as a pediatric assistant for a while and everything I would try to educate "The Doctor" on was waved away with a smirk and a shrug. Particularly the "do not retract a foreskin" issue:

I have been reading your posts and I commend you for staying calm and friendly. Please stick around and use that there handy "ignore" feature if you must

Candice

[Sarah]

Question about informed consent

Dr. Jay-

Way back on page two of this thread you made a comment which I wanted to ask about... concerning testifying against at least one Dr. for not giving a person proper information before circumcising.

If all you know of me comes from this thread and what has been said about me here, you might have (IMHO) a very imperfect idea of how I approach this issue... some have said that I have a zero tolerance type of approach to parents who circumcise or who don't "get it" the moment I think they should. Actually that's far from what I think usually happens... and if I had a "MO" I think it would probably be that I encourage people to write letters.

My typical reasoning is... why am I telling you (parent) ANY of this? Why wasn't this told to you by the people who were offering it? Even if you are happy about your decisions, if you learned ANYTHING on an internet discussion board or a website- you should write a letter of complaint to the Dr, the hospital, the child birth educator, the state medical board and the insurance company who paid for it... sometimes I suggest that they contact a lawyer, I think I may have even one told a person to complain to the national chain bookstores which do not stock any circumcision books on the pregnancy bookshelves.

Here are some examples of me doing this:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...ghlight=letter

"Write a letter of complaint to the hospital! I am not kidding- what you were exposed to could cause PTSD for YOU... not to mention those poor babies.

Complain Complain!! Hold them accountable. Express your outrage that this is being done.

Those medical students are ALSO being abused. there is no reason why they should be forced to be exposed to barbaric unethical cruelty. That is not medical training- that is conditioning to submit to the status quo of authority. medical students need to be encouraged to speak out, protest and refuse to take part in that. See if they have a school paper. Write a letter and encourage them to take a stand. Medical school costs enough without selling out your soul."

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...ghlight=letter

"Hi Bev- Here is my idea- write a little letter to your ped. It would go along these lines"

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...light=complain

"So I just want to clarify- if you complain to the people in this story who let you down- remember, it's not the outcome you should be upset about- it's the fact that you were not INFORMED that this outcome was what you were consenting to. "

When you mentioned being involved in a case about misinformed consent- that caught my eye. I want to know about it! I want to know if these things only get persued when something goes AWFULLY wrong- do any people ever just come back and say- "Hey- that was wrong the way that was handled, no- no botch, but had I KNOWN- I would have made a different choice- what you did is malpractice, even if i was a perfect circumcision." If parents wrote to the state medical board or the state hospital regulatory commision- would their letters be taken seriously or would it be a big joke? Do they only pay attention when there are lawyers involved? When the penis looks mangled and not ideally turned inside out? Is it illegal to solicit surgery? How do you get consent for a circumcision without offering it? What happened in that case? Did it only get mentioned because something went wrong? How many OTHER misinformed consents had that Dr. taken?

A lot of questions I know- what can you say about that case and the scene at the recieving end of these letters that I'll assume hardly ever get written. Am I encouraging people to bark up a tree that will get them nowhere? Does anyone take these commnications to heart?

Love Sarah

[hummingbear]

talking to those who have chosen circumcision and to doctors who do it

here's a sticky question....... How would you talk to a parent who had circumcised their son? I have several friends in this category. I was surprised to see their circumcised sons during diaper changes. Obviously they think what they did was right. Or do they? If they come to realize that they made a mistake in "their" choice isn't it risking an intense amount of grief and regret? But wouldn't the thought to circumcise change dramatically if those who had done it said they didn't do the right thing?

I live in a small town where family physicians do the procedure. What if I gave all of them some NOCIRC information. I could at least start with my family doctor. Could I have an impact on all of the boys born in this town? Wow.
What a thought. And I am sure I wouldn't have this thought if I lived in a larger town.

What would you suggest is the best way to access the doctors who practice here to really care about the information on the subject?

Ann

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Frank is the expert on Circumcision.

Originally posted by Frankly Speaking



I'm not sure I'm qualified for that honor but thanks for the compliment! Frank

You do deserve it, and you're welcome.

[applejuice]

Thank you Dr. Jay Gordon.

It is gratifying to see a pediatrician of your caliber taking the time to post on these boards.

[applejuice]

I forgot, and want to add:

I know Dr. Gordon that you did your undergraduate work in Hebraic Studies. I applaud your stand on circumcision.

When I had my three sons, all of the Jewish men in my family were emphatic about the "great need" and "extreme importance" for me to circumcise my newborn son.

This admonition was from men who ate pork, cheeseburgers, watched the baseball play-offs on the High Holidays, and put up Christmas trees.

Notmeaning to be judgemental as I feel that everyone can and should observe G-d in their own way, but why should I have to do this to my son which is only one of the 613 commandments. Maybe that is the one commandment I choose not to observe!

[Frankly Speaking]

Juice:

I'm sad to report that apparently Dr. Gordon suffers from excessively thin skin and a very fragile ego and has elected to not be with us again.




Frank